Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Craig Melvin 20180220

So well start there. With that bus ride to tallahassee. At this moment, more than 100 students are headed to the States Capital for two days. Students say they will hold protests and try to talk with state legislatures in their hopes to focus attention on gun control. Nbcs Tammy Leitner is about to get on the bus. These students have really become such a force in advocating for themselves in the wake of this tragedy. Whats the next step for them . Thats right, they really have become a mouthpiece for a national issue. There are about 100 students here and their parents. Theyre leaving in about 20 minutes. And i actually want to let one of them speak and he can tell you for himself. This is alfonsalfonso, hes a j. You tell me, why are you about to get on this bus and take this journey over the next two days . Simply, change needs to happen in this country. In two aspects, one, attitude. This country undeniably has a gun culture and i believe thats one of the reasons somebody like nikolas cruz was able to acquire these weapons and nobody bat an eye. Second of all, gun laws. It has to be more difficult for somebody who is mentally ill and disabled like him to acquire weapons like an ar15. In this country, hes 19. Hes not even able to go into the publix right behind us and buy a beer but he can buy an ar15. I want to know where is the common sense to that. You speak very articulately for a high school junior. Also for somebody who just lost a very close friend. Where are you finding the strength right now . There exactly. The motivation for me is my people who i lost, my friends and the families that are never going to have their kids come back to them again. That motivates me every single day and it will never be a deterrent for any reason. Nothing could bring me down, being reminded every single day of the horrific things i saw and hopefully no one ever has to see ever again. Last question, alfonso, do you think you guys can make a difference . Definitely. Weve opened doors that i feel like havent been opened before. Finally, our lawmakers are talking. Were on a National Stage right now, interNational Stage actually. And you know its the first time ive ever seen people survive a shooting and then directly after it demand change, which something i think should have happened in this country a long time ago, but its taking kids to do this. Thank you so much, i appreciate it, alfonso. There you heard it, its taking kids to bring about change, and this is all coming on the day that three funerals happened, that they are saying goodbye to Three Friends that were very close. The youngest victim that was laid to rest today, 14 years old. In coral springs, florida. Thanks to alfonso as well. Please convey to him that we are of course our thoughts and prayers are with him and all of those who are making this journey troo to try to make sure there is more than just thoughts and prayers. We will be checking back in with you, tammy, throughout the hour. As the public and washington debate the role of Mental Health in Mass Shootings. A judge has ordered the release of a 2016 Mental Health report on the suspect in the Parkland School shooting. The investigation lasted more than a month. Report found no indication of abuse or neglect as alleged. It said cruz suffered from depression, adhd and that his most said he was on medication for that adhd. She also said that cruz began cutting himself after a breakup with a girl. He reportedly posted a snapchat of the cutting as well. Cruz also reportedly drew a nazi symbol on his book bag. His mom later said she made him erase it. One counselor who spoke with cruz said he talked, quote, about wanting to purchase a gun and feeling depressed. However, neither she, nor a crisis clinician, believed that cruz was a threat to himself or to others. Our guest is an msnbc legal analyst. Jonathan met zer is a professor of psychology at vanderbilt university. Danny, i want to start with you. This debate, in the wake of this, its become all too familiar. We start to talk about what can be done to prevent people with documented Mental Health issues from having access to firearms. What was missed here from the perspective of this childs Mental Health and yet no actual red flags that were caught by anybody that could have stopped him from purchasing that firearm. There are many Different Things that have to happen correctly in the mosaic of gun control in this country. As it is, the federal government cant even force states to report those who are not qualified to own firearms or at least the reporting requirements are patchwork at best. When it comes to Mental Health, we have to strike a balance. Societys always struck a balance, particularly so when juvenile records are involved. Between the obvious safety of society but also the privacy of the juvenile with the idea that juveniles are different from adults. We seal their records because they have a hope that maybe a 25yearold does not, that they may mature out of whatever phase theyre going through. And that by the time they reach 18, 19, 20, that they will mature enough to no longer, to sort of grow out of this condition or bad behavior or bad conduct. Modern science tends to show and the Supreme Court has acknowledged that that age of adolescence, when people are making poor decisions, goes way beyond 18 and into the 20s. But as it exists, most states look at 18, sometimes 17, as the magic line, before which we generally protect the records of our juveniles, whether it be court, criminaltype records or Mental Health records, which are always presumptively secure and sealed. Jonathan, youve written extensively on this topic, saying that focusing on Mental Health in the wake of these tragedies is the wrong approach. Can you speak a little bit to dannys point . Where is the right balance for someone who is a juvenile and who, you know, does have a right to privacy that may weve seen very sadly in this case, it conflicted with, obviously, the rights of these students that he killed. Absolutely. Let me just say as a psychiatrist, i completely understand why we turn to questions of Mental Health in the aftermath of Mass Shootings. On one hand, were all traumatized. The idea of what happened to us is something that came from somebody who is outside the boundaries of sane or Civilized Society really as a natural human drive. The other aspect, as weve seen in this case, in this record, is there are significant Mental Health histories for mass shooters, things that are very important to think about. Often we learn that information in retrospect. The reason i say we should be wary and i agree with danny exactly about this balance is for a couple of reasons. One is that as we see in this case and in this file, there are many factors that went into this shooting, but none of them would have been predictive. In other words, there are many people who have depression, adhd, cutting, breakups, g getting kecked out of school. Of the many thousands who have those symptom, its not like a Mental Health practitioner can go on to say this person is going to commit a shooting. Theres no Predictive Value it the other, as we see here, its a combination of Mental Health histories but also its hard to take that out of the context of laws, cultures, access to guns, other factors like that. So what i worry about as a psychiatrist is we just say the problem isnt somebodys brain and not look at the larger culture. The final point, we can see with the way President Trump and other people are talking about this, when we focus just on this question of Mental Health, it becomes a code word for really not doing anything. Because the subtext of that message is, well, gosh, this is just happening in somebodys brain and that sure is unpredictable. So it becomes for me a massive deflection of talking about what really needs to happen to enact communities that are safer, even if we respect peoples gun rights. Danny, to you on this, were learning a little bit more about the how the defense is going to play out in this case as nikolas cruz faces these charges of murder, 17 counts. Theyre asking if or saying he would plead guilty to these counts in exchange for the Death Penalty being taken off the table. How do you see this case progressing legally . We look at the records that were just released. Those are not particularly helpful to an insanity defense. I dont think his counsel is really exploring an insanity defense. At least it doesnt appear so. In florida, every state has a different insanity defense. Some states dont even have it anymore. But generally in florida, he had to have not understood the wrongfulness of what he was doing. Not that he personally thought he was justified but, rather, he had to be unaware that society deemed what he was doing was wrong. And if he escaped, if he concealled his crime in any way or tried to, thats going to be a very difficult uphill battle. Now, some of the efvidence that came out recently about his troubled childhood could become a nonstatutory mitigating factor in a Death Penalty argument. Defense counsel could use that sort of as a bargaining chip and say look if we go to trial, we have some decent arguments, some nonstatutory mitigating factors, given his history. But then the prosecution could always say, yes, weve got some major aggravators, including the fact that he executed, allegedly, almost 20 people in cold blood, and those would weigh heavily in favor of the Death Penalty, if it went to trial. So defense counsel has some very difficult decisions to make and some harddriving negotiations to make in the coming weeks and months. Thank you both very much for your time, i really appreciate it. And as those students prepare to take their message to lawmakers, a conservative writer makes the case for new gun control measures. And getting ready for court. The latest suspect to be charged in Robert Muellers russia investigation expected before a judge in the next hour or so. Well dig into the charges against him and his connections to the case. Needles. Essential for vinyl, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. Because there are options. Like an unjection™. Xeljanz xr. A once daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. Xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. Xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. Dont start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. Tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. Your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. Tell your doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. Needles. A must for vinyl. But for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. Ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. An unjection™. We know that when youre spending time with the grandkids every minute counts. And you dont have time for a cracked windshield. Thats why we show you exactly when well be there. Saving you time, so you can keep saving the world. Kids safelite repair, safelite replace Robert Mueller handed down a new charge today in his russia investigation. Attorney alex van der zwaan has been charged with making false statements to federal investigators, a felony. Van der zwaan arrived at a fbi field office. He is accused of lying about talks with rick gates. Gates and Paul Manafort have been charged with Money Laundering, tax evasion and foreign lobbying in connection with their russiaconnected clients. There are reports gates is prepared to take a plea deal. Van der zwaan is expected to plead guilty at a 2 30 court appearance. Nearly 20 interviews have been charged as a result of the ongoing Mueller Investigation. Nbc news intelligence and National Security reporter ken dilanian is following this story. Ken, can you just give us a little bit of context here, who is i mean, this is yet another person that we have never heard of who clearly is playing potentially a key role in what is a drama that could reach to the oval office. Van der zwaan is a young dutch lawyer with a major american law firm. Hes poised to plead guilty to a single count of making false statements to Robert Muellers investigators. The statements had to do with his work for his law firm about a report involving a ukrainian politician that was commissioned by Paul Manafort and rick gates, who have been charged obviously in this case. And the nature of the charges in the plea suggest that this young lawyer has something to offer Robert Mueller. He has some testimony thats valuable. And the question is what is that about. Is it about the manafort case . Manafort is already facing, you know, a series of charges in what experts call a powerful case. Why would muller still be pressing on that, in this area . And some speculation is mueller really wants to press the case against manafort to convince him to plead guilty and flip and give information, tell what he knows about the Trump Campaign. Yes, ken, can we can you explain a little bit about what is our sense of how independent the investigation and charges into manafort and gates have become, visavis the president of the United States and potential collusion . In many ways we seem to when we talk about manafort, we talk about the ukraine, about a series of events, things that dont necessarily seem totally related. What in your view or in your reporting you touched on a little bit, but how does mueller bring those two things together or does he . Its a great unknown. But one theory a lot of my sources talk about is that mueller is approaching this like a racketeering case. Hes moving up the chain. Hes trying to flip witnesses who may know things about whether the Trump Campaign cole huded with russia. Paul manafort was the chairman of the campaign. So yes, youre absolutely right. These charges against manafort and gate involve illegal foreign lobbying and Money Laundering and have on their face nothing to do with the question of Trump Campaign collusion with russia. But if mueller is able to flip Paul Manafort and get him to testify about what he knows, that would seem to be a valuable thing for the Mueller Investigation. Manafort also had a relationship with a Russian Oligarch, and dont forget, during the campaign, he was offering that oligarch private briefings. So theres strands there that suggestion manafort may know something. Ken dilanian. To talk more, msnbc National Security contributor matt miller and alan rosenstein, law professor at the university of minnesota and former attorney in the justice departments National Security division. Alan, i want to start with you. We touched on this a little bit with ken, but what does the role of a lawyer like van der zwaan potentially bring to the table in an investigation like this . What does a lawyer like that know, not know, be able to potentially say . Are there any limits on what he could say based on any privilege that may have been part of his conversations . Well, it depends on what hes being asked about. If hes being asked about questions relating to his representation of certain clients, then there may be some privilege issues that have to be dealt with. If hes talking about other issues, if the charge, for instance, is lying to investigators, tlaheres reallyo privilege issue there. I think whats notable about mr. Van der zwaan and the charges against him is twofold. First, it shows the special counsel is willing to indict anyone who lies to his investigators as part of this investigation. And that should send a strong message to individuals that have or will be interviewed by his investigators. It should encourage a lot of candor. I think second whats really interesting about this individual is hes not just any old lawyer. Hes actually the soninlaw of a notable Russian Oligarch who is a key putin ally. Depending on how hard mueller presses, he may use this source not just to put pressure on gates and manafort but also to get information on how the russian government itself operates. Very interesting. Lets pick up there. You and i were sort of talking about what the most interesting thing is we learned from what mueller has done today. You were pointing to a conversation between the lawyer, between rick gates and someone we dont know. What is the significance . Were reading tea leaves. One of the things we learned is bob mueller holds his cards close to his vest and plays them when he needs to. One of the interesting little clues here is one of the conversations this person is being charged with is a conversation he had with rick gates and person a, a person whos not yet been named in september 2016, that the lawyer recorded. Very odd thing for the attorney to do, to record this conversation. If you think about the timing of that conversation with gates and the other unknown person. September 2016, a month after States Capital<\/a> for two days. Students say they will hold protests and try to talk with state legislatures in their hopes to focus attention on gun control. Nbcs Tammy Leitner<\/a> is about to get on the bus. These students have really become such a force in advocating for themselves in the wake of this tragedy. Whats the next step for them . Thats right, they really have become a mouthpiece for a national issue. There are about 100 students here and their parents. Theyre leaving in about 20 minutes. And i actually want to let one of them speak and he can tell you for himself. This is alfonsalfonso, hes a j. You tell me, why are you about to get on this bus and take this journey over the next two days . Simply, change needs to happen in this country. In two aspects, one, attitude. This country undeniably has a gun culture and i believe thats one of the reasons somebody like nikolas cruz was able to acquire these weapons and nobody bat an eye. Second of all, gun laws. It has to be more difficult for somebody who is mentally ill and disabled like him to acquire weapons like an ar15. In this country, hes 19. Hes not even able to go into the publix right behind us and buy a beer but he can buy an ar15. I want to know where is the common sense to that. You speak very articulately for a high school junior. Also for somebody who just lost a very close friend. Where are you finding the strength right now . There exactly. The motivation for me is my people who i lost, my friends and the families that are never going to have their kids come back to them again. That motivates me every single day and it will never be a deterrent for any reason. Nothing could bring me down, being reminded every single day of the horrific things i saw and hopefully no one ever has to see ever again. Last question, alfonso, do you think you guys can make a difference . Definitely. Weve opened doors that i feel like havent been opened before. Finally, our lawmakers are talking. Were on a National Stage<\/a> right now, interNational Stage<\/a> actually. And you know its the first time ive ever seen people survive a shooting and then directly after it demand change, which something i think should have happened in this country a long time ago, but its taking kids to do this. Thank you so much, i appreciate it, alfonso. There you heard it, its taking kids to bring about change, and this is all coming on the day that three funerals happened, that they are saying goodbye to Three Friends<\/a> that were very close. The youngest victim that was laid to rest today, 14 years old. In coral springs, florida. Thanks to alfonso as well. Please convey to him that we are of course our thoughts and prayers are with him and all of those who are making this journey troo to try to make sure there is more than just thoughts and prayers. We will be checking back in with you, tammy, throughout the hour. As the public and washington debate the role of Mental Health<\/a> in Mass Shootings<\/a>. A judge has ordered the release of a 2016 Mental Health<\/a> report on the suspect in the Parkland School<\/a> shooting. The investigation lasted more than a month. Report found no indication of abuse or neglect as alleged. It said cruz suffered from depression, adhd and that his most said he was on medication for that adhd. She also said that cruz began cutting himself after a breakup with a girl. He reportedly posted a snapchat of the cutting as well. Cruz also reportedly drew a nazi symbol on his book bag. His mom later said she made him erase it. One counselor who spoke with cruz said he talked, quote, about wanting to purchase a gun and feeling depressed. However, neither she, nor a crisis clinician, believed that cruz was a threat to himself or to others. Our guest is an msnbc legal analyst. Jonathan met zer is a professor of psychology at vanderbilt university. Danny, i want to start with you. This debate, in the wake of this, its become all too familiar. We start to talk about what can be done to prevent people with documented Mental Health<\/a> issues from having access to firearms. What was missed here from the perspective of this childs Mental Health<\/a> and yet no actual red flags that were caught by anybody that could have stopped him from purchasing that firearm. There are many Different Things<\/a> that have to happen correctly in the mosaic of gun control in this country. As it is, the federal government cant even force states to report those who are not qualified to own firearms or at least the reporting requirements are patchwork at best. When it comes to Mental Health<\/a>, we have to strike a balance. Societys always struck a balance, particularly so when juvenile records are involved. Between the obvious safety of society but also the privacy of the juvenile with the idea that juveniles are different from adults. We seal their records because they have a hope that maybe a 25yearold does not, that they may mature out of whatever phase theyre going through. And that by the time they reach 18, 19, 20, that they will mature enough to no longer, to sort of grow out of this condition or bad behavior or bad conduct. Modern science tends to show and the Supreme Court<\/a> has acknowledged that that age of adolescence, when people are making poor decisions, goes way beyond 18 and into the 20s. But as it exists, most states look at 18, sometimes 17, as the magic line, before which we generally protect the records of our juveniles, whether it be court, criminaltype records or Mental Health<\/a> records, which are always presumptively secure and sealed. Jonathan, youve written extensively on this topic, saying that focusing on Mental Health<\/a> in the wake of these tragedies is the wrong approach. Can you speak a little bit to dannys point . Where is the right balance for someone who is a juvenile and who, you know, does have a right to privacy that may weve seen very sadly in this case, it conflicted with, obviously, the rights of these students that he killed. Absolutely. Let me just say as a psychiatrist, i completely understand why we turn to questions of Mental Health<\/a> in the aftermath of Mass Shootings<\/a>. On one hand, were all traumatized. The idea of what happened to us is something that came from somebody who is outside the boundaries of sane or Civilized Society<\/a> really as a natural human drive. The other aspect, as weve seen in this case, in this record, is there are significant Mental Health<\/a> histories for mass shooters, things that are very important to think about. Often we learn that information in retrospect. The reason i say we should be wary and i agree with danny exactly about this balance is for a couple of reasons. One is that as we see in this case and in this file, there are many factors that went into this shooting, but none of them would have been predictive. In other words, there are many people who have depression, adhd, cutting, breakups, g getting kecked out of school. Of the many thousands who have those symptom, its not like a Mental Health<\/a> practitioner can go on to say this person is going to commit a shooting. Theres no Predictive Value<\/a> it the other, as we see here, its a combination of Mental Health<\/a> histories but also its hard to take that out of the context of laws, cultures, access to guns, other factors like that. So what i worry about as a psychiatrist is we just say the problem isnt somebodys brain and not look at the larger culture. The final point, we can see with the way President Trump<\/a> and other people are talking about this, when we focus just on this question of Mental Health<\/a>, it becomes a code word for really not doing anything. Because the subtext of that message is, well, gosh, this is just happening in somebodys brain and that sure is unpredictable. So it becomes for me a massive deflection of talking about what really needs to happen to enact communities that are safer, even if we respect peoples gun rights. Danny, to you on this, were learning a little bit more about the how the defense is going to play out in this case as nikolas cruz faces these charges of murder, 17 counts. Theyre asking if or saying he would plead guilty to these counts in exchange for the Death Penalty<\/a> being taken off the table. How do you see this case progressing legally . We look at the records that were just released. Those are not particularly helpful to an insanity defense. I dont think his counsel is really exploring an insanity defense. At least it doesnt appear so. In florida, every state has a different insanity defense. Some states dont even have it anymore. But generally in florida, he had to have not understood the wrongfulness of what he was doing. Not that he personally thought he was justified but, rather, he had to be unaware that society deemed what he was doing was wrong. And if he escaped, if he concealled his crime in any way or tried to, thats going to be a very difficult uphill battle. Now, some of the efvidence that came out recently about his troubled childhood could become a nonstatutory mitigating factor in a Death Penalty<\/a> argument. Defense counsel could use that sort of as a bargaining chip and say look if we go to trial, we have some decent arguments, some nonstatutory mitigating factors, given his history. But then the prosecution could always say, yes, weve got some major aggravators, including the fact that he executed, allegedly, almost 20 people in cold blood, and those would weigh heavily in favor of the Death Penalty<\/a>, if it went to trial. So defense counsel has some very difficult decisions to make and some harddriving negotiations to make in the coming weeks and months. Thank you both very much for your time, i really appreciate it. And as those students prepare to take their message to lawmakers, a conservative writer makes the case for new gun control measures. And getting ready for court. The latest suspect to be charged in Robert Muellers<\/a> russia investigation expected before a judge in the next hour or so. Well dig into the charges against him and his connections to the case. Needles. Essential for vinyl, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. Because there are options. Like an unjection\u2122. Xeljanz xr. A once daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. Xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. Xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. Dont start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. Tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. Your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. Tell your doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. Needles. A must for vinyl. But for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. Ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. An unjection\u2122. We know that when youre spending time with the grandkids every minute counts. And you dont have time for a cracked windshield. Thats why we show you exactly when well be there. Saving you time, so you can keep saving the world. Kids safelite repair, safelite replace Robert Mueller<\/a> handed down a new charge today in his russia investigation. Attorney alex van der zwaan has been charged with making false statements to federal investigators, a felony. Van der zwaan arrived at a fbi field office. He is accused of lying about talks with rick gates. Gates and Paul Manafort<\/a> have been charged with Money Laundering<\/a>, tax evasion and foreign lobbying in connection with their russiaconnected clients. There are reports gates is prepared to take a plea deal. Van der zwaan is expected to plead guilty at a 2 30 court appearance. Nearly 20 interviews have been charged as a result of the ongoing Mueller Investigation<\/a>. Nbc news intelligence and National Security<\/a> reporter ken dilanian is following this story. Ken, can you just give us a little bit of context here, who is i mean, this is yet another person that we have never heard of who clearly is playing potentially a key role in what is a drama that could reach to the oval office. Van der zwaan is a young dutch lawyer with a major american law firm. Hes poised to plead guilty to a single count of making false statements to Robert Muellers<\/a> investigators. The statements had to do with his work for his law firm about a report involving a ukrainian politician that was commissioned by Paul Manafort<\/a> and rick gates, who have been charged obviously in this case. And the nature of the charges in the plea suggest that this young lawyer has something to offer Robert Mueller<\/a>. He has some testimony thats valuable. And the question is what is that about. Is it about the manafort case . Manafort is already facing, you know, a series of charges in what experts call a powerful case. Why would muller still be pressing on that, in this area . And some speculation is mueller really wants to press the case against manafort to convince him to plead guilty and flip and give information, tell what he knows about the Trump Campaign<\/a>. Yes, ken, can we can you explain a little bit about what is our sense of how independent the investigation and charges into manafort and gates have become, visavis the president of the United States<\/a> and potential collusion . In many ways we seem to when we talk about manafort, we talk about the ukraine, about a series of events, things that dont necessarily seem totally related. What in your view or in your reporting you touched on a little bit, but how does mueller bring those two things together or does he . Its a great unknown. But one theory a lot of my sources talk about is that mueller is approaching this like a racketeering case. Hes moving up the chain. Hes trying to flip witnesses who may know things about whether the Trump Campaign<\/a> cole huded with russia. Paul manafort was the chairman of the campaign. So yes, youre absolutely right. These charges against manafort and gate involve illegal foreign lobbying and Money Laundering<\/a> and have on their face nothing to do with the question of Trump Campaign<\/a> collusion with russia. But if mueller is able to flip Paul Manafort<\/a> and get him to testify about what he knows, that would seem to be a valuable thing for the Mueller Investigation<\/a>. Manafort also had a relationship with a Russian Oligarch<\/a>, and dont forget, during the campaign, he was offering that oligarch private briefings. So theres strands there that suggestion manafort may know something. Ken dilanian. To talk more, msnbc National Security<\/a> contributor matt miller and alan rosenstein, law professor at the university of minnesota and former attorney in the justice departments National Security<\/a> division. Alan, i want to start with you. We touched on this a little bit with ken, but what does the role of a lawyer like van der zwaan potentially bring to the table in an investigation like this . What does a lawyer like that know, not know, be able to potentially say . Are there any limits on what he could say based on any privilege that may have been part of his conversations . Well, it depends on what hes being asked about. If hes being asked about questions relating to his representation of certain clients, then there may be some privilege issues that have to be dealt with. If hes talking about other issues, if the charge, for instance, is lying to investigators, tlaheres reallyo privilege issue there. I think whats notable about mr. Van der zwaan and the charges against him is twofold. First, it shows the special counsel is willing to indict anyone who lies to his investigators as part of this investigation. And that should send a strong message to individuals that have or will be interviewed by his investigators. It should encourage a lot of candor. I think second whats really interesting about this individual is hes not just any old lawyer. Hes actually the soninlaw of a notable Russian Oligarch<\/a> who is a key putin ally. Depending on how hard mueller presses, he may use this source not just to put pressure on gates and manafort but also to get information on how the russian government itself operates. Very interesting. Lets pick up there. You and i were sort of talking about what the most interesting thing is we learned from what mueller has done today. You were pointing to a conversation between the lawyer, between rick gates and someone we dont know. What is the significance . Were reading tea leaves. One of the things we learned is bob mueller holds his cards close to his vest and plays them when he needs to. One of the interesting little clues here is one of the conversations this person is being charged with is a conversation he had with rick gates and person a, a person whos not yet been named in september 2016, that the lawyer recorded. Very odd thing for the attorney to do, to record this conversation. If you think about the timing of that conversation with gates and the other unknown person. September 2016, a month after Paul Manafort<\/a> left the campaign, left the campaign partially over questions about his dealings with Ukrainian Government<\/a> officials and whether he told the truth in those dealings. Clearly the content of those conversations is now known to bob mueller. He may even have the tapes of those conversations. If you look at the person, a, thats named in this indictment, this may be somebody whos already cooperating and helped mueller get to van der zwaan. Or he could be protecting him. Or person a is the person mueller is trying to put pressure on to get that person to flip. The point alan raised, the idea the special counsels willing to go after somebody who lies to him. There seems to be a suggestion there that could potentially apply to the president. Isnt this perjury trap . Something his lawyers have talked about. You always have to remember the best way to avoid a perjure trap is to tell the truth when you talk to investigators. Weve seen this before. Weve seen this is the way that mueller was able to flip mike flynn. Its one of the tools that investigators often like to use. You bring someone, set them down for an interview. Oftentimes when you have that interview, the investigators already know the answer to some of these questions. If you like to them, or if they find out later, theyre going to use that not just to potentially put you in jail but as leverage to get you to turn on other people in the conspiracy. Alan, the first that mr. Van der zwaan worked for put out a statement saying the firm terminated its employment of alex van der zwaan in 2017. Now, its skadden, arps, slate. Is there a risk for the firm in what is unfolding here . How does that overlap . Well, i think you have to know more about what the charges are under lying. Van der zwaans information van der zwaans charge. I think the real risk for skadden is reputational. We have to go to 2012 to understand what van der zwaans role was. The reason hes inrovolved is i 2012 when he was representing the russian strongman vanokovich, commissioned skadden to write a misleading report that he had not prosecuted his opponents politically. At the time, skadden got a lot of heat for that. Its engagement with manafort in some of these seedy dealings and these really inaccurate portrayals of what was going on in ukraine i think really could tarnish the firm in a very serious way going forward. Matt miller, we naturally of course have already heard from the white house this morning saying that this new charge underscores no evidence of collusion with the russians. Can you unpack what does this mean in the context of the potential collusion investigation . You know, ken kind of put this well earlier, that there are many separate threads of this investigation. We dont know whether theyll ever connect. Its a mistakes for them to say the charges related to manafort and gates are separate from the overall collusion investigation. Lets remember what theyre charged with. Not just laundering money in connection with their representation for some random Foreign Government<\/a> but a Foreign Government<\/a> controlled by a proputin dictator. Manafort was having conversations with the Russian Oligarch<\/a> close to putin offering access while he was the campaign manager. While he was not charged with anything like a conspiracy, you know, that would relate to collusion, its not exactly unconnected from the russia investigation either. In respect to ty cobbs Statement Today<\/a> that this has nothing to do with the white house, theres no way he can know that. We dont know who this unnamed person a is thats mentioned in the criminal information. It may be Paul Manafort<\/a>. It may be someone else from the campaign. It may be someone who works in the white house now. We dont have any idea. Neither does ty cobb. Matt mill, alan rosenstein, thank you. A lot to come on this story of course. Meanwhile, a conservative writer makes the case for a new gun control measure in the wake of the parkland shooting. Well talk to him about the change he thinks fellow conservatives should get behind. Plus, nbcs Tammy Leitner<\/a> is on that bus full of florida students who survived the School Shooting<\/a> and theyre bound for tallahassee. Tammy, whats going on there . Weve just gotten on the bus. Well be leaving here in about five or ten minutes, traveling 450 miles, about eight hours, so they can go and make their voices be heard and well be along for the entire ride. This is food made to sit down for. Slow down for. Put the phone away, and use a knife and fork for. And with panera catering, its food worth sharing. Panera. Food as it should be. And with panera catering, its food worth sharing. Now that we have your attention. Capri sun has four updated drinks. Now with only the good stuff. Do you know how to use those . Nope. Get those kids some new capri sun right now, in coral springs, florida, dozens of students and school staff getting ready to depart for a 400 mile road trip to tallahassee. Where they will meet with state lawmakers to demand action on gun control. My colleague Kerry Sanders<\/a> spoke to one of parklands teachers about what the students may be able to achieve. Whats going on in america . I dont know, but these children are going to change it. This young man and all his schoolmates are going to change it. Eventually we will heal but nows the time to make a change and to do something. Nbcs tammy litner is on one of those buses en route to the state capital. Tammy, whats it like with those students . The interview you did earlier really resonated with me as i think it has been resonating with americans across the country. One word, impressive. This was pretty much mainly organized by students. Earlier they were standing on top a car sending out their message talking to their fellow students saying, you know, theyre going to be people that are going to try and stand in our way of getting our message out but lets do this, lets stick together and get our message out. Take a look at this bus. This is pretty calm and organized. I would say 90 made up of students. There are a handful of parents on here. There are about 100 students among the three buses. I was told there was actually more students that wanted to come along on this journey. They actually had to turn people away. Its about, as you mentioned, a 400mile journey their making, about eight hours im told it will take to get to tallahassee. Tonight, theyre going to be sleeping in the civic center. Tomorrow, theyre walking over to the state capital to meet with state leaders and, you know, while this is a national issue, gun control, theyre going to be lobbying state lawmakers, you know, keep in mind its only been six days since the shooting. Every single day there have been memorials, vigils, funerals. Today, there were three funerals of three young students. Their friends who were killed and so while theyre grieving, theyre taking this grief and theyre turning it into something positive, taking action. Well see if it manages to make this story different from all the others. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, there are new calls to toughen gun regulation in the wake of last weeks shooting including a new ban on assaultstyle weapons. Those semiautomatic rifles were banned in 1994, along with large capacity magazines. But the ban expired in 2014. Six of the ten deadliest Mass Shootings<\/a> in this country have occurred in the last 5 1 2 years. Lets bring in david french, a Senior Writer<\/a> for the national review. David, i know there has been a wide variety of topics you have brought your voice to lately, but this is one where youre offering something of an unorthodox solution. Clearly any measures to restrict gun rights have been met with quite fierce opposition typically in washington. Its gotten fiercer in many ways with the rise of organizations like the gun owners of america for example. Can you walk tloous through whau are proposing as a potential way to make sure this doesnt happen again . Its very simple, its called a gun violence restraining order. The advantage of gun violence restraining order has, its targeted specifically at people who should not have a gun. So what a gun violence restraining order does, it says if you have a belief if youre a defined, in a close relationship with another person, say your spouse, sibling, son, daughter, and you have a belief and based on evidence that a person in your household, for example, is a significant danger to himself or others, you can go to a judge and ask for a temporary order removing guns from that person. So its very precisely targeted at people giving off red flags. These things are sometimes called red flags laws. So what happens is if you look at the history of these killings, of these Mass Shootings<\/a>, in the United States<\/a>, with the notable exception of the las vegas shooter which is an outlier in many ways, time and time and time again, there are red flags that have been given off for sometimes months, sometimes for years red flags have been given off, but the existing legal structures are inadequate to deal with that. Our Mental Health<\/a> system is in many ways broken down. Someone can be giving off red flags without having committed a felony which would deny them access to a gun. So this is targeted at individual behavior and its individually problematic behavior and it provides due process. I think if you look at this and you compare it to whats happened in the past, this could have made a difference in multiple shootings. David, is this something that any of the states have tried or looked at . Are there examples of a place where this has been implemented and worked . Well, california has just implemented it and slightly different version than what i propose in national review. But its already been used several dozen times to remove guns from homes where people had exhibited threatening behavior but it wasnt the kind of behavior that would lead to a felony conviction or lead to a finding of Mental Fitness<\/a> or institutionalization. Its already been used multiple times. Interestingly, so under the california law, theres a provision to take the guns temporarily of the more than 60 times that its been used, only ten times has that order been extended. So whats happened is its often been applied to people who are in crisis. And when that crisis is passed, they receive their guns back, but some people, the crisis is extended and you have that opportunity to go back to the court and ask for an extension. So, again, its all tailored to whats happened to a real person. So imagine a situation where this existed in florida, rather than feeding your tip into the fbi bureaucracy, you instead go to your local judge and say here are the instagram posts, here are the things you did at school, this person should not have a gun, lets issue an order. And the other, the respondent would have an opportunity to contest the order. David french, thank you very much for you time. Ill be interested to see if there are any conservatives here in washington who are interested in exploring such an idea as that. It has been very hard to get even the smallest things done on this topic. Thank you, but marco rubio is, hes tweeted in support of it. Sounds good, thanks, i really appreciate it. Heading to court soon, Robert Muellers<\/a> team expected to get its next guilty plea within the hour. Were live at the courthouse. And were looking into the background of the man who was just indicted. 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And try Febreze Unstopables<\/a> for fabric. With up to twice the fresh scent power, youll want to try it. Again and again and maybe just one more time. Indulge in irresistible freshness. Febreze unstopables. Breathe happy. Less than an hour from now, the new defense defendant in special counsel Robert Muellers<\/a> russia investigation is set to a pe appear in court. Charged with a felony count of making false statements to the fbi and is expected to plead guilty. Nbcs Pete Williams<\/a> is outside that federal court in washington. Pete, is there anything that we might learn at this hearing today that could help us better understand where muellers overall investigation is going . Possibly, but frankly, i doubt it. The way these hearings usually go is the person will say yes, i did all the stuff you say in these charging documents. But that doesnt tell us much. All the fbi says here, all the lawyers say is when they interviewed him last november, he told them two lies that they two statements that they say were lies and hes apparently prepared to say he wasnt truthful at that time, about his contacts and his work for manafort and gate six years ago when they hired a washington, d. C. Law firm and he was based in London Office<\/a> of that firm. To do work, in essence, justifying charges against the political rival of the ukrainian politician that manafort and gates were representing. These hearings tend to be very short. When you plead guilty, all the judge wants to know is are you doing it intentionally, do you understand what rights youre giving up, you know you cant appeal, youre not on drugs, youre doing this fully and completely willingly and understanding all the consequences. Thats the essence of these hearings. So i dont think were going to hear a lot from the mueller lawyers. This is not one of these kinds of hearings where they show a lot of legs about the case. So i dont think well learn much more about it. Based on what weve seen in the court documents, this is not like last friday, which was directly about russian meddling in the campaign. This seems much more oriented towards the already existing case towards manafort and gates and theyre accused of failing to disclose their lobbying for ukraine, Money Laundering<\/a> and some other charges that have to do with their conduct before the Trump Campaign<\/a>. So thats a longwinded answer to say i dont think were going to learn more about the road map of Robert Muellers<\/a> investigation. So, pete, your takeaway from this, this charge, is simply that Robert Mueller<\/a> is trying to put more pressure on Paul Manafort<\/a> or is it Something Else<\/a> . Do you feel like you learned Something Different<\/a> in finding out about this charge . I think theres probably a combination of things. Turn up heat on manafort possibly. Possibly turn up the heat about gates. And theres already some speculation that he may be prepared to plead. But the other thing is just this typical thing prosecutors do. They dont like to be lied to. They like to send a message to other people theyre going to interview, you know, its not nice to fool mother nature. If you like to us, were going to throw the book at you. Having said that, its a single count of lying to the federal. I suppose if they really wanted to heavy up on this lawyer, they could charge him with one count for each statement, so that would be two counts, and then obstruction of justice. They havent done that. So it does seem like theyre trying to file the least charge, the smallest possible charge against him to get his cooperation. Pete williams, thank you very much. Note to self, dont lie to the fbi if they ever come and ask. Right. For more on alex van der zwaan, Betsy Woodruff<\/a> for the daily beast. Ken vogual, the new york times. A short time ago, announced tte times staff won the george polk awards for uncovering connections between the Campaign Officials<\/a> and the russians. Congratulations to your whole newsroom. I want to start with you, ken. You wrote an extensive story on this firm and a report that they prepared thats part of this investigation into Paul Manafort<\/a> that in some ways breaks new ground. Can you walk through what, you know, based on the deep reporting you had done on this and what were seeing unfold today, what you think muellers team is getting from van der zwaan . Sure. Theres a couple things going on here. One is sort of the surface issue. And that deals with this report that Paul Manafort<\/a> commissioned on behalf of his client the former president of ukraine, victor yanokovich, the russiaaligned president of ukraine. That this lawyer that was indicted today was involved in. That essentially sought to whitewash the role of yanukovych and yanukovychs government in prosecuting a former rival, at that point current rival, who was convicted of corruption charges, yulia timonchenkovich, the former president of ukraine. So manafort got this report, saying no, essentially, there were no political motivations here. He also averaged for payment in the way that the ukrainians said violated our contracting rules and paid money. So that could fit into the case against manafort, Money Laundering<\/a>, banking violations. But theres Something Else<\/a> here thats really interesting. This lawyer is married to a woman whose father is a Russian Oligarch<\/a> who the Treasury Department<\/a> said is very close to Vladimir Putin<\/a>. Theres an unnamed person in this complaint, in this charging papers that were released today. We dont know who that is, but there are potentially bread crumbs here back to russia and back to Vladimir Putin<\/a> directly in what were seeing from mueller in this indictment. Betsy, to kens point, lets talk about person a and who that could be. We touched on this earlier in the hour with matt miller. But what do you what have you taken away and what does your reporting tell you about who this person a might be and what the next step here could be . I dont have concrete information. I cant actually reveal the name of that person. I dont think any of us can, thats fair. A conversation with a person whos very well plugged in to the ukrainian lobbying world just a few minutes ago, and that person said the emerging speculation seems to be person a is a ukrainian national. We day say with a degree of confidence its not Paul Manafort<\/a>. Its like sort of redactable right, theyd say who it was. We know its somebody who currently doesnt have federal charges against them that are at the moment unsealed. And of course its probably somebody working in, in some way, with the lobbying efforts that were under way on behalf of yanukovych. One of the most interesting subplots of the Mueller Investigation<\/a> is the way that he has put the fear of god into many k street lobbyists, showing the federal government is going to crack down increasingly on people on k street who work for Foreign Government<\/a>s in shady ways, try to skirt the laws about revealing the work that they do there. And additionally not just lobbying firms but also as we see skatt e n arps, an incredibly powerful legal firm, and other entities part of this influence peddling that many Foreign Government<\/a>s try to capitalize on. I know you and your colleagues at the times spend time talking to the white house lawyers, whether it of trump, the white house counsel, other advisers. How nervous does what happened today, how much more nervous does that make them about this probe . Theyre saying theres no collusion, but do they view this as a potentially serious issue . Are they more nervous now about what Paul Manafort<\/a> might decide to do . Yes, i mean, thats where their concern comes in. It has to do with Paul Manafort<\/a> and the pressure on Paul Manafort<\/a>. They see all this stuff. They see manaforts work for Viktor Yanukovych<\/a> and anyone else who manafort may have sub contracted, worked out from van covich to including podestas group, mercury, public affairs, these are all firms that weve seen have some interest or generate some interest from the mueller folks, but they but the white house sees this as all totally peripheral to what they what is the core of the russia investigation and muellers investigation, which is meddling by russia in the u. S. President ial election, and any potential collusion between the trump folks and russia, they see this indictment today as completely unrelated to that. But what it does do, as betsy suggested, and pete suggested, from the courthouse there, is it puts pressure on Paul Manafort<\/a> and it put pressure on rick gates, who we saw some reporting that we havent confirmed suggesting that rick gates might be considering a plea deal. What that does is put more pressure on manafort to potentially give up something about the Trump Campaign<\/a> that we havent seen mueller really getting at, the connection between manafort and any potential collusion or work between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and russia. Ken vogel, Betsy Woodruff<\/a>, really appreciate your time today. Thank you. And the White House Press<\/a> briefing is scheduled to start in the next few minutes. There is a lot of ground to cover. Its the first briefing in a week. Were going to talk about all of it, including roberts that some white house aides thought the Florida Shooting<\/a> felt like a reprieve from their political scandals. Whoooo. Going somewhere . Heres some advice. Tripadvisor now searches more. Than 200 booking sites to find the hotel you want and save you up to 30 . Trust this birds words. Tripadvisor. Welcome back. You are looking at just in, pictures of alex van der zwaan, the skadden lawyer who is the most recent person to be charged in Robert Muellers<\/a> investigation, walking into a federal courthouse for this hearing, where he is expected to plead guilty to one count of lying to the fbi. We are here now, still with Betsy Woodruff<\/a> and peter baker of the new york times. Also here with us, and peter, since i havent had a chance to ask you about this yet, im curious, as the white house watches this unfold, i know you spent a lot of time talking to them about all of the scandals that they have been dealing w h with, but also, of course, friday the massive number of indictments for the russian troll farm. All of this causing great stress for the white house. What does this particular indictment of or excuse me, of these charge this charge against van der zwaan mean for the white house . Are they more nervous now because of this . What do they read into this . Well, obviously, any indictment like this makes them nervous. They dont know what it signals. They dont know where its leading. If this lawyer can tell them the prosecutor something about rick gates or Paul Manafort<\/a>, does that add additional pressure to rick gates and Paul Manafort<\/a>, who may or may not have sympathetomething to tell further about the campaign, they dont know. What the white house would tell you for the record, hey, this has nothing to do with us, if this guy didnt tell the truth, it doesnt in any way impugn there was collusion with russia or impugn the campaign. Therefore we dont have much to say about it. I think youll hear Sarah Huckabee<\/a> sanders Say Something<\/a> to that effect in the briefing coming up pretty soon. But any action by Robert Mueller<\/a> raises the temperature level in the white house. Betsy, i was talking to Pete Williams<\/a> about this a little bit, too. Is there anything that we might learn from this hearing about where mueller is going . Or do we expect this to be pretty straightforward and for it not to really illuminate or show us any of muellers cards . I dont expect any bombshell revelations in this hearing. I think the most information interesting information were going to get from it, we have in this information that i was filed in the court document. And it shows the extent to which mueller has zeroed in on the lobbying work that Paul Manafort<\/a> and rick gates did for this putinfriendly ukrainian president , Viktor Yanukovych<\/a>. Part of the reason thats so interesting is that it cuts across partisan divides. This is something that republicans sometimes will get happy for you to highlight. The fact that the podesta group, which is, of course, a democraticconnected lobbying firm, mercury llc, which represents some former obama people, were actually working for the same people that Paul Manafort<\/a> was working for. They were pushing this putinfriendly, essentially propaganda that skadden arps and that manafort and his allies created on capitol hill. They were reaching out to lawmakers about it, to influential people in the state department. It was very much a bipartisan effort to defend the imprisonment of the political opponent of a ukrainian leader who was close to putin. And peter baker, you mentioned that white house briefing, we have not heard from anybody in the Briefing Room<\/a> for quite some time. And you kind of ticked through in your story that weve had the florida School Shooting<\/a>, weve had those massive indictments at the russian troll farm, the security clearance overhaul. We spent how many days talking about rob porter and how all of these members of the white house staff dont have security clearances. What is the mood like right now in the west wing among the president s advisers. What of this long list of things are they most focused on right now . Well, its been a pretty toxic mood in the white house the last week or two. Not necessarily because of all of these issues, some of these issues theyve gotten used to, they happened, to some extent, you know, with some regularity. But the thing that really got people in the white house upset is this issue with rob porter and john kelly, the chief of staff, and what he knew and how he reacted and the handling of all of this. That people have felt left out on a branch that was being sought out from under them. And theres sort of a mistrust right now among people in the white house towards each other, it has created additional friction and tension in a place thats already kind of a hot spot of, you know, high emotion and tension. So, you know, whether they can move forward past that or not is the real question. John kelly, obviously, put out that memo intending to revamp the security clearance process, but thats led to more questions. And we havent heard the answers yet. Again, maybe well hear a little bit more from Sarah Sanders<\/a> today. Yeah, on that point, peter, what you hearing about Jared Kushner<\/a> . Hes one of the people who has had one of these interim security clearances and we also know that he, quite frankly, has been reading almost everything that the president has access to on a neardaily basis, that hes asking our intelligence agencies more questions than maybe any other white house official. Is it possible that there will be ramifications for him because of this . Its an unknown question. We dont know the answer to that. Certainly the process and the procedure that general kelly put out last week would seem to suggest that there could be a problem for Jared Kushner<\/a>, because he doesnt have that permanent security clearance and doesnt look like hes about to get one. But we dont know how that will affect him. But white house people are saying, you know, hell still be able to do his job, hell still be able to do what he needs to do. Today hes up in new york at the United Nations<\/a> to hear the speech of mahmoud abbas, the palestinian leader. Hes focusing on middle east peace, as his main driving force. Its hard to imagine that you can be in such a sensitive diplomatic position without having access to the kind of topsecret security information that you need a security clearance for. So these are unanswered questions. Again, i think youll hear them answered today theyll be asked today. Whether theyll be answered, i dont know. And betsy, we the question of family members in their potential involvement in this, overlaps, i think, what the Mueller Investigation<\/a> weve seen mueller use going after family members, as another tactic in addition to his making sure to hold feet to the fire in an instance of perjury. Mike flynns son, for example, has been involved. From a broader perspective, the white house insisting that not only does this charge today mean that there was not necessarily any additional evidence of collusion, but that, in fact, this is further evidence that there was no collusion. What what is the leap there . Thats just not a connection that you can draw, based on these documents. If the white house wants to set off a confetti cannon every time a public court filing is released that doesnt say that the president colluded within the russians, its absolutely well within their rights to do that. Thats how the First Amendment<\/a> works. But its not an argument that holds any sort of serious legal water. Fair enough. Betsy woodruff, peter baker, thank you very much for your time. Thats going to wrap up this hour of msnbc live. Katy tur takes over the conversation right now. Katy . Hi, there, kasie, appreciate it. Its 11 00 a. M. Out wet and 2 00 p. M. In washington where alex van der zwaan just showed up in court, the latest person to be charged by Robert Mueller<\/a>, accused of lying dont lie to the special counsels team. More on that in just a few moments. But at the white house, Sarah Huckabee<\/a> sanders is about to break a week of silence after a School Massacre<\/a> gave what one white house staffer told the Washington Post<\/a> was a, quote, reprieve from the escalating pressure on the white house amid a flurry of scandals. The last briefing scheduled for that wednesday never happened. The white house kept pushing it back to get its story straight on rob porter. Have they now . They ultimately canceled it as news to have the florida School Shooting<\/a> broke. We know that the tentative plan back then before it was canceled was to have chief of staff john kelly face reporters. Youll remember, it looked like his job was on the line last week for two reasons. One, he kept porter around despite the Domestic Abuse<\/a> allegations and he and","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia601002.us.archive.org\/17\/items\/MSNBCW_20180220_180000_MSNBC_Live_With_Craig_Melvin\/MSNBCW_20180220_180000_MSNBC_Live_With_Craig_Melvin.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20180220_180000_MSNBC_Live_With_Craig_Melvin_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}