Manafort, would be of no use whatsoever. Sort of pardon protection. Joining us now, nbc news Investigative Reporter ken dilanian, former federal prosecutor glenn kirchner, former assistant u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york, mimi rocah, nbc news investigations reporter tom winter, and way chen, former compliance counsel expert at the department of justice. We have a full house. I will say one thing that we can get to in a minute. Mortgage fraud charges, one of the things weve been talking about with the investigations in the new york state investigations into the donald trump family has been about mortgages, about loans against properties and about that sort of fraud. Misstating the value of his property. Donald trump, that has to be going off in his head right now that new york state is onto a different line of attack than all of these other investigations. Remember quickly, we hear it over and over again, you cant indict a sitting president. But do you remember who he is in business with . His daughter, his sons, his immediate family. You can indict them. This is interesting. Were going to talk about what Paul Manafort has done first. Talk to me about these charges only talk to him. Talk to him. Ready . By doing so, you will by definition speak to stephanie. By accident. Speaking to both of you. So, yes, as a matter of fact, in the last couple of minutes the Manhattan District Attorney, sy vance, has returned through a manhattan grand jury a 16count indictment. A lot of this, if you read through the indictment, its going to look very familiar to people that have been covering Paul Manafort for sometime. Why is that . This has to center around Residential Real Estate mortgage fraud. It has to center around falsifying business documents and conspiracy around that. And basically what the Manhattan District Attorney here has done a really good job of going through and laying out exactly what weve seen in Paul Manaforts trials, exactly what weve seen in the public exhibits presented in the excuse me, its just been one trial. In the trial that was presented last summer in virginia, and really public documents that all of us have been clued into whether it be through lawsuits before Paul Manafort was ever indicted or through public documents available in the new york City Property property and tax databases here. So a lot of this is very familiar to us. A lot of it, interestingly, are all things Paul Manafort has either pleaded guilty to or admitted his guilt to. Those are public statements. They are public documents. So presumably, if this case were to, say, ever go to trial, if the Manhattan District Attorneys office yeah, you can introduce his statements when he admitted to all of these things as part of the criminal information that was presented last fall when Paul Manafort said that he would plead guilty and cooperate. Obviously that cooperation didnt go anywhere. Thats one of the reasons why were at where were at today. But this case is very specific to Paul Manafort. This case is very specific to things that happened in manhattan because thats where sy vance is the District Attorneys purview and jurisdiction is. But i think folks are looking at it for the ways that both of you mentioned when we started the show, which is that this is something this is an action that would be impervious to the president s pardon power because it is not a federal crime. So i think thats kind of where we look at it today. It is not it is not insignificant and this is a case that is very detailed. They have specific file numbers, specific pdf files and letters and things that Paul Manafort sent in specific transactions, things that weve had a chance to look at over the last several months ourselves. Glenn, lets go from new york back to d. C. Where you are outside the courthouse. Just a few minutes ago, Paul Manaforts lawyers walk outside. His lawyer stands in front of the microphone and says, the first thing he says, no collusion, no collusion. When he was inside the courthouse, judge Amy Berman Jackson went after him about that and said, enough with this no collusion. We wont know that until Robert Mueller is done with his investigation. And what does he do . He mentions it the second he walks out. Does that not make it clear hes speaking to an audience of one and that one is donald trump with his eyes on a pardon . Yeah, he is, stephanie. He may have gotten himself in hot water because making demonstrably false statements like that as an officer of the court as we call attorneys can get you referred to bar counsel. There were twopointed remarks by judge jackson about collusion. The first early on in what was about a 45 or 50minute statement by judge jackson, early on she said the fact that people are claiming no collusion is a nonsecond sequitor. She added to say let me say one thing. That this case was not about the matter of collusion period is how she punctuated it. So right. For an attorney to then walk out and say a second judge has found or announced no collusion is just flatout wrong. There are two people interested in this in the world, Paul Manafort and donald trump. Its kind of remarkable. He always does it, he always tweets it. I get people i dont know if you get this. People say theres no proof of any collusion. But this trial isnt there would be a whole lot of people going to jail. Ken, i dont know if this is a question for you or anybody else on the panel who can answer. What happened . He gets this sentence, and then he gets this charge from new york. Did that happen did somebody walk up to his lawyer like they do on law order and hand something . What went down . Was the music tontontontonton thats exactly how it went down today. Paul manafort got an additional 43 months in this courthouse behind me on top of the 47 months he got in virginia last week. Hell serve after time served a total of about 6 years 9 months in federal prison, but of course his legal troubles are not over now. Its worth reviewing what happened today in court, though. We saw a different Paul Manafort, and we saw a different portrayal of Paul Manafort by this d. C. Judge. First of all, Paul Manafort expressed remorse. He said he was sorry for his conduct. He appealed to judge Amy Berman Jackson to keep him and his wife together. He never mentioned his wife last week in virginia. But judge Amy Berman Jackson in contrast to zr judge ellis in virginia said Paul Manafort lived an otherwise blameless life, Berman Jackson went over a litany of conduct in the ten years she said manafort was lying and committed crimes. She pointed out this wasnt just about his own bank and tax fraud. He defrauded the american public, she said, by lying about the fact he was lobbying for Foreign Government in the United States and he didnt register. This was a crime that affected our democracy. And so she really brought the hammer down, gave him a tongue lashing, but then delivered a sentence was a little bit less than some people were expecting frankly. Nonetheless, a significant chunk of time for a 69yearold man. Mimi rocah, tom winter brought up things that Paul Manafort has now been charged with by the manhattan d. A. That he has admitted to. For people like me who get most of their exposure to legal activity with the manhattan d. A. From law order, what is the fact hes either pled guilty to or convicted of some of the things hes now being charged with in new york . Are they entirely different charges, the fact theyre state charges, does that make them different charges . So, ali, it depends. There is a concept of legal principle called double jeopardy, which means someone cant be tried twice for the same conduct. They cant be charged or tried for it. Paul manaforts charges factually overlap, but without having yet seen the charging document myself, my sense is, first of all, sy vance is an experienced and practical District Attorney. Hes not going to bring these charges if they wouldnt stand up in court. So the elements, the things that you have to prove for these charges are likely different from what you would have to prove in the federal charges, otherwise you would have a double jeopardy problem. But also remember, one of the reasons for bringing these charges is clearly an insurance policy if trump does pardon manafort. And if he were to do that, if trump were to pardon manafort, then i dont believe there would be any double jeopardy issue even if the charges overlap significantly. So i think this is really, you know, its putting a stopgap in there. I think overall, if we look at everything thats happened just this morning, this is a really good day for justice. You know, judge jackson sentenced manafort maybe lower than some hoped, maybe higher than others hoped, which probably means its a very fair sentence. Shes a very fair judge and i think she got it right. But more importantly or just as importantly, in some of the comments that she made, she talked about how manafort could not manipulate the system, and facts matter in courtrooms. And i think that bore out today in her proceeding. And now what were seeing with the District Attorney coming in is that the Justice System as a whole is going to stop trump from manipulating the system because if he were to pardon manafort, somebody else is there waiting. And thats what this is about. I think why some people are so outraged is this feeling that trumps, the manaforts, theyre getting away with things they shouldnt get away with and other people wouldnt. Today i think justice as a whole is seeing that that isnt going to happen. What do you think . I completely agree. I do suspect that manafort is probably expecting a pardon, if not now, then in november 2020. In november 2020, whether trump wins or loses the election, he will have nothing to lose. So whatever the outcome of the sentencing that happened today, they needed it. They being the prosecution side, needed the prosecution insurance policy and i think new york state delivered that. Do they coordinate with each other . The tv shows i watch they never do. In fact, they dont get along. They dont like it when they get big footed. Is this just sy vance saying the country is up in arms about this, the guy committed crimes, im going to indict him, or do you think people talk about this sort of thing . Oh, i think there are times they dont like each other like on tv shows, but there are times they recognize that they need to cooperate. And i do i believe there would be certain amounts of collaboration here. Theres also the new York State Attorney generals office. So its not the new York State Attorney general ran for her election on the basis of the fact she was going to go after donald trump. Thats exactly right. Dont did forget before she came on board there was an acting attorney general who actually was in the same office as many of the people who are now on the Mueller Investigation team. Theyre all from Eastern District of new york. So there is a lot of collegiality there. Prosecutors know each other. Hasnt he been in solitary confinement for a while . He has. Part of that was for his protection and part of that was because of the conditions. In other words, it wasnt bad behavior that he had. I want to make two quick points. Hold on, is that going to be over . Thats up to the Probation Department and thats going to be up to the marshals actually, im sorry, its up to the bureau of prisons now that hes been sentenced. So bureau of prisons will decide where he goes, where he does time if hell be in regular general population. Mimi, check your email, i got your indictment. To address mimis point, what Paul Manafort has been charged with today has to do with facts that came up in the previous trial as i said before. However, the charges are different than the ones that muellers Office Brought against him and they are very specific to Residential Real Estate and also falsifying documents. That may clear up the double jeopardy. The fact pattern may be the same, but the specific charges are different. So that may be a situation where the double jeopardy doesnt quite come into play on this. And so i think thats where, you know, thats where it stands at the moment. Mimi, check your email. Very, very mimi, check your email, i sent you the indictment. Words i didnt think id generally hear on the tv. Did you know about my vast law order when you started humming the bars svu is my regular one. I want to thank all of our contributors, our correspondents and our guests for this. What a fast developing story. Thank you, all of you. Well continue to follow all of the developments in this very interesting story. When we come back, there is a new clue into what may have caused the tragic crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight sunday that killed all 157 people on board. And we are learning that at least two pilots, two pilots reported concerns about those planes months before the crash. Were going to speak about why they are still flying in u. S. And only the u. S. All right. But first, boeing has lost more than 26 billion in market value, wow, since sundays crash. Boeings shares dropped 11 over monday and tuesday as they ground the the boeing 737 max 8 and some max 9 jets. Shares are up by less than 1 today. Youre watching velshi ruhle live on msnbc. Day never started. Get going with carnation breakfast essentials®. It has protein, plus 21 vitamins and Minerals Including calcium and vitamin d, to help your family be their best. Carnation breakfast essentials®. To help your family be their best. At a comfort inn with a glow taround them, so people watching will be like, wow, maybe ill glow too if i book direct at choicehotels. Com. Who glows . Just say, badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com. If you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture now might not be the best time to ask yourself are my bones strong . 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The United States is now the latest nation flying the last nation flying the boeing 737 max 8. 42 countries now including canada, have banned the planes from flying as the world waits for more information about the crash in ethiopia that took place sunday. It killed all 157 people on board and was the second crash of a 787 max 8 in less than five months. The black box has been found, but ethiopia will be sending it to germany to be analyzed. In the meantime here in the United States, the federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation safety board are refusing to kneel to pressure. In a statement the faa said this. Our review shows no systemic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding of the aircraft. Nor have other Civil Aviation authorities provided data that would tell us it would warrant such action. The agency went on to say, it will act quickly if it identifies any issues affecting air worthiness. But now the New York Times reports that in november, at least two pilots raised concerns about the noses of their planes dipping after engaging auto pilot. This according to a federal government database of inc