Obstruction of justice inquiry. The president fired off a series of tweets this morning to discredit the report while calling the russia investigation mccarthyism at its worst and claiming mueller is heavily conflicted. Meanwhile trumps personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, kicked off another media blitz just this sunday on meet the press, accusing muellers team of leaking the story. Giuliani says the alleged leak is part of an effort by the special counsel to convince mcgahn that the president is setting him up for a fall. All right. Lets bring in our panel, ellie miss tall, above the law. Com editor. Mara gay, danny cevallos, and christina greer. Lets start with you on this, mara. Youre a member of the New York TimesEditorial Board. As we look at the back and forth and this bombshell report over the weekend, saturday, yesterday, that says look at the 30 hours. Look at the nine months. Look at the three sitdowns that mcgahn supposedly has had with either mueller and or his team. Yeah. I mean, listen, im going to let our reporting speak for itself. We stand by that story. It was not reported by a fake or failing newspaper or a fake or failing reporter, and, you know, i think that maggie haberman, michael schmidt, again, beltway reporters. Thats right. Listen, Rudy Giuliani has always been on a p. R. Campaign to try and discredit the Mueller Investigation from day one. Its a p. R. Campaign, but its not going to work in court, so the interesting part about what he said today, and we played a little bit here, christine, is that the truth isnt the truth. Mmhmm. He also said its the mueller team that provided the information for the article that was published in the New York Times today and came out yesterday. Very interesting tactic, but maybe not. We know that this administration keeps moving the goal post as well. So when he says, oh, the truth isnt the truth, but im also not going to let the president perjure himself, they speak in very mobsterlike terms where its like you do know your client is a pathological liar, cannot tell the truth if his life depended on it, and has possibly colluded or done something that is either illegal or definitely not befitting of the president. And so when you have the p. R. Campaign of Rudy Giuliani and donald trump saying this is all collusion and mueller is running scared, mueller is not tweeting at 7 30 in the morning on a saturday and a sunday, right . He is not. But guess what . James comey is tweeting today and ill share with you what he did do today in response to what was on meet the press. He says truth exists and truth matters. Truth has always been the touch stone of our countrys Justice System and political life. People who lie are held accountable. If we are untethered to truth, our Justice System cannot function in a society based on the rule of law dissolves. So when we look at this, ellie, look, this is, again, typical of the last couple years. Realtime voices that were hearing in response to very crucial issues we didnt necessarily hear before. What do you think james comey is saying and why . Look, as George Orwell would probably have said of Rudy Giuliani, that was his final and most essential command, okay . We are living in a 1984 propaganda war, and i think people need to people who make these 1984 references and these orwellian references, i think sometimes they forget the party wins in that book. This kind of stuff works. This kind of doublespeak, disinformation campaign, Propaganda Campaign that giuliani is on it works for a lot of people. And so we should be, i think, very worried and frightened about what hes saying on that end. However, while giuliani can talk whatever he wants about the truth, there are facts. And what don mcgahn is doing right now is giving some facts to the Mueller Investigation. Now, don mcgahn is not a hero, but on above the law, weve done a lot of reporting about how mcgahn is probably looking for a way out, probably looking to get back to his law firm at jones day. I think its clear mcgahn has a sense of life after trump and does not want to go down with this whole ship. So the fact that, as your paper reported, the fact that mcgahn has been talking to mueller, these are facts that are being disseminated through to this investigation, and thats going to be the important thing, not this Propaganda Campaign by Rudy Giuliani. Yeah, go, danny. Rudy giuliani has said a lot of goofy things. Hes made a lot goofy faces. Respectfully to all of you, this truth thing is not one of them. As a criminal defense attorney, i know exactly what hes talking about. Here are the facts. It is true that people have lied to investigators so far. Theyve been indicted for it. So its also possible that others have lied to them, and then its additionally possible that the government investigators have taken those facts into account in formulating their view, their theory of what happened. And finally if all thats possible, then its possible that donald trump could go into an interview, telling what he believes to be the truth, and that is inconsistent with the investigators. And just like that, hes committed a federal felony, section 1001, false statements. Yes, the truth is the truth in the abstract. But for a trial lawyer, the truth is whoever is the more credible witness on the stand. But, danny, build on that because weve got the numbers coming from the New York Times about the 30 hours, the nine months. This is a lot of stuff. If youre a defense attorney, youre going like, oh, were not going to do that. That part i agree. Lets say you want to talk about the truth. What did james comey hear from donald trump in that meeting, for example . Really, ultimately, it comes down to two peoples stories. Which one is more credible . I think that is going to be an easy answer for many folks. The truth is an abstract concept. It has no intrinsic value. And for that reason and i see the entire panel they are activated. Yeah. But as a trial attorney, Rudy Giuliani has said some wacky things so far. But being concerned that there are at least two or more versions of the truth is not one of them. Christina first. This is whats so dangerous about this particular president and the administration is that they have called truth and facts into the question from day one. So anything that they dont like, theyve always said was fake news. Anything that they dont want to hear, its like, well, thats not the truth. Senator daniel pat rake moynihan has said were all entitled to our own opinions. Were not entitled to our own facts. The president has said this is my version of the truth. His version of the truth at the trump tower meeting keeps evo e evolving and changes and thats part of the problem. His stories are consistent, that will be a trap for him at any meeting with investigators or any grand jury testimony. So inconsistency is by itself evidence of untruth. And, danny, this isnt he said she said. This is he said she said he said the tape said the evidence said. We dont just have to go on i agree it comes down to credibility, but we dont just have to go on the credibility of trump versus comey. We have to go on the credibility of trump versus almost everybody else. And so when giuliani kind of tries to muddle the waters, all giuliani wants is for this to be a 5050 fight. Ill ask you a simple yes or no question. Do you believe that the special counsel knows everything it needs to know and it knows the truth, that nobody has lied to it and they have all the facts exactly as they are . No. Well, then in that case, it is possible, wouldnt you agree, that donald trump could go in there and tell something that is truthful or that he honestly believes is truthful, and its inconsistent with what the special counsel team believes . This sounds like a discussion on philosophy that i had back in college. I got to play this because weve been talking about religion. Of course the president s top personal lawyer. Lets talk about the other side. A person that has been very active, at least onair as of late, also on meet the press. Lets listen to former cia director brennan. You have gone farther than most on collusion. Youve gone farther than most on conspiracy. Is this no, i havent gone further on conspiracy, chuck. I said collusion is certainly in plain sitght. The things that have come out, the individual who have admitted to wrongdoing with the russians, these are things and this is what speaks to collusion. Finally to you, mara. He said collusion is in plain sight. Conspiracy, saying im not going to really say that. Obstruction, yes, im watching that too. So brennan being very strong over the last couple of days about his clear view of what this president is doing. Its nice to listen to someone who comes from a realitybased place, isnt it . I mean i think john brennan is a very credible actor. Listen, we all come into a conversation, and we all view a set of facts through a certain lens, partisan or not. But that doesnt mean that were unreliable witnesses, okay . And i think as weve learned, the takeaway from the past two years is that, yes, there are republicans and there are democrats, but its not about that. Its about who is going to be a patriot first. I actually think john brennan is an extremely credible person, and we should listen more to what he has to say than Rudy Giuliani, who has zero credibility. Spirited start to this hour. All four of you will be here for the rest of the hour, so thank you. Upping the ante. Just how far john brennan is willing to go to prevent others from having their security clearances revoked by the president. That next. If my clearances and my reputation as im being pulled through the mud now if thats the price were going to pay to prevent donald trump from doing this against other people, to me its a small price to pay. Sfx [cell phone dialing] no. No, no, no, no, no. Cancel. Cancel. Please. Aaagh being in the know is a good thing. Thats why discover will alert you if your Social Security number is found on any one of thousands of risky sites. But some give their clients cookie cutter portfolios. Fisher investments tailors portfolios to your goals and needs. Some only call when they have something to sell. Fisher calls regularly so you stay informed. And while some advisors are happy to earn commissions whether you do well or not. Fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. Maybe thats why most of our clients come from other money managers. Fisher investments. Clearly better money management. I am going to vote ok, for myself using nothing but this remote and the sound of my own voice vote for. Wait wait, thats not a talent. Any xfinity customer with an x1 voice remote can do that. Watch this. I want to vote for. Obviously not you. Ooh that guy. Cast your votes during every live show. Just say vote for agt into the x1 voice remote. I called his behavior treasonous, which is to betray ones trust and aid and abet the enemy, and i stand very much by that claim. You ahave the former cia director accusing the president of the United States. Its not a private citizen. The former cia director accusing the sitting president of the United States of treason, thats a monumental accusation. Well, i think these are abnormal times and i think a lot of people have spoken out against what mr. Trump has done. And maybe its my my warning training as an intelligence professional. I have seen the lights blinking red in terms of what mr. Trump has done and is doing and is bringing this country down on the global stage. And hes fueling and feeding divisiveness within our country. Not backing down. You heard him just this morning on meet the press with chuck todd. Former cia director john brennan standing by his claims he has made that President Trump did commit treason. Brennan speaking out on meet the press days after losing his security clearance and getting some pushback over his accusations that when it comes to trump and russia, collusion is in plain sight. Those were his words. Joining us now on our panel is alina maxwell, msnbc political analyst, Evan Siegfried as well as elie mystal, thank you for being back as well. Daniel cevallos also still on the table. Lets start on the opposite end. What do you make of what he said, john brennan here . And is he credible . Should he be talking . Heres the thing. First of all, Sarah Huckabee sanders came to the white house podium on thursday and said, you know, were revoking the security clearance because of erratic conduct and behavior. She also said that he is engaging in a series of outrageous allegations, wild outbursts on the internet and television. You could literally swamp donald trump swap Donald Trumps name with john brennans. Then the president in a wall street journal interview made it clear that he did this because john brennan was attacking him personally, and he didnt like that. While its not a First Amendment violation, it certainly violates the expert of the First Amendment. As a conservative who believes in the constitution and that president s shouldnt use the president ial powers to retaliate against people, this is absolutely an inappropriate move on the president s part, and it should be called for what it is. The critics will say it doesnt follow the spirit of the office that john brennan had held. Right. To make such an accusation, to use such a word treason. I think you have to look at the facts. What he is talking about is the president siding with Vladimir Putin, right . So when he sent out the tweet that said the actions were treasonous, he was talking about something specific. It wasnt a broad accusation. Additionally i think this is the deep state conspiracy essentially coming to the fore. This is the bowels of the rightwing internet entering the mainstream conversation and making it so john brennan is essentially an enemy of trump supporters. And so this is him taking an act of personal political retribution in an unprecedented way when what were dealing with is something very serious. He is ringing an alarm because the president sided with Vladimir Putin after he attacked our country, and we cant forget that. Senator ron johnson said this, republic from wisconsin. Lets listen to that first. Im not sure theres evidence that anybody has misused it but i do believe former cia director john brennan abused his privilege. When youre an excia director and youre going on all the cable news shows and acts as partisan as he is and accusing the president of the United States of treasonous behavior, high crimes and misdemeanors, last time i checked treason was punishable by death. Youve just crossed a line, and so i have no problem that the president pulled his clearance. Elie . Oh, my, were talking about courtesy, not the law. Were talking about courtesy, okay . Donald trump exists to teach us the difference between laws and norms. If its a norm, hes going to break it. This was a courtesy that was given to other people. Trump doesnt like courtesy, so hes going to break it. Brennan, the courtesy would be not to call the president a traitor. Of course the courtesy would be for the president not to be a traitor. So brennans breaking his courtesy. Trumps breaking if its not a law, it doesnt matter in Donald Trumps world. Its just a norm like so many that hes stepped all over. Hes stepping over some laws as well. So were going to find out whether bob mueller finds theres enough evidence to prove that. Ron johnson said that, but then brennan said more today. Lets listen to what he had to say about collusion. But what im saying is that there is collusion that took place between individuals, americans, and russians. Whether or not this is going to trigger some type of criminal activity indictment is Something Else entirely. And ive never put forth any thoughts on conspiracy. But collusion, i dont think mr. Trump has made a secret of it himself. So, danny, we heard a lot in that conversation with the former cia director on meet the press today. They were discussing obstruction of justice, conspiracy as well, and you saw there collusion. And he was making no bones about it. Of course they were talking about treason as well. Im sorry to turn this into the merriamwebster hour. Please do. Treason has several meanings. Treason we use colloquially to describe treacherous behavior. It doesnt always mean the constitutionally defined crime for which you may be punished with death. Similarly, yes. I mean you dont think brennan meant that, then . You dont think brennan meant it that way legally . You dont . Im saying he couldnt have meant that because treason has a very specific statutory definition. It means you are working with or giving aid or comfort to an enemy, a declared enemy. Russia may be a competitor. Russia may be not playing fair. Russia may be liar, liar, pants on fire, but they are not an enemy as that is defined for the crime of troin. So i think there is no way that john brennan meant treason as a crime as defined by our statutes. Going forward as somebody who can observe collusion to some degree, weve said this many, many times. We can focus on the word collusion all we like. The fact that it doesnt have a real significant meaning in the criminal code doesnt mean anything because it might be conspiracy. It might be accomplice liability. It might be attempt liability. There are any number of things that that kind of behavior can translate to in you did merriamwebster and oxford well. And colloquially. To you, evan, on this. Theres also this discussion on meet the press was how brennan was saying, yes, ive been approached by lawyers to pursue my legal options. The question might be should he do this . Has he already had overexposure . And legally what can he do . Well, im not sure what he personally can do. Sure. Legally. Maybe he can sue the president for defamation. But there is a legal matter being missed. Ive spoken to several prosecutors on the federal level who said this can be construed by mueller as a warning shot, an attempt to intimidate potential witnesses because they named other people who a