Exploring issues that affect leaders in the U. S. And around the globe. Manafort is turned his direction. One can only imagine what is going through manaforts mind, because if you believe the prosecution version of the case, gates knows all his secrets and is about to expose them to the jury. If you believe the defense version, gates is setting manafort up and framing him. Well have to see which version the jury believes. Ken, how long can we expect gates to be on stand and, number two, what is manaforts defense right now . They were really motoring through gates testimony. Generally this court wraps up at 5 30 but ive got to believe hell be back tomorrow on direct and then there will be a lengthy cross examination. The defense really rests on tarnishing gates. There was some devastating testimony before gates from Cindy Lapartyorta who made the understand that she had no idea that Paul Manafort had overseas accounts. He was supposed to disclose on his taxes. She prepared the taxes and had no idea they existed. That was very persuasive testimony of a crime. But now t and some of these crimes were being committed while the two of them were working for the Trump Campaign . Reporter yes. Well, this conduct, yeah. Most of it happened before. But some of these loans and the alleged bank fraud and tax fraud continued, yes, right up until the time because manafort was broke, as you said in the intro. He was strapped for cash, he was in debt and could barely pay his Health Insurance bills at the time he was working for donald trump. So the prosecution alleges some of the bank fraud and misrepresentations to banks happened well into 2016 and beyond. John, isnt that one of the key points, that manafort was completely broke when he went to work for Donald Trumps campaign and he worked there for free . Isnt that one of the open questions . Why would a man who has no money work for a billionaire for free . I think weve all speculated that the manafort story as he was Campaign Manager for three months and he got one very significant thing done in that
time aside from getting ted cruz booed at the convention, which is that he had removed from the republican platform an item denouncing the russian invasion of crimea. Now, weve speculated or people who follow this closely have speculated that there must have been some quid pro quo there. Why was this necessary . It just was removed from the platform. But this trial, trumps not in this trial. No. There is no trump in this trial. So if thats an issue, its going to come out later. It doesnt seem to be playing in this courtroom in virginia. Thats a really good point, because the prosecution and the defense have been instructed by the judge not to bring up trumps name. This is not about trump, this is about their activities before, mostly before they got onto the Trump Campaign. Their business activities, their financial crimes, but its very hard to separate these two because he was Donald Trumps campaign chairman, Paul Manafortwas, and rick gates was the Deputy Campaign chairman. They got caught doing this in part of the wider probe into what happened in 2016. Yeah, i mean President Trump or then Candidate Trump may not be relevant to this legally, but politically certainly very relevant. You have to wonder why the man who is the nominee for the major party of the United States, the Republican Party for president , is bringing aboard people who are clearly engaged in a criminal enterprise. You wouldnt have probably had to look very hard to figure that out. There was no vetting that was done on manafort, Gates Who Manafort very well known for many years in washington as representing these sort of sketchy strong men overseas. Gates, his deputy, who knew what his background was but it probably wouldnt have been too hard to check what these Business Ties were, that they were financially in trouble, that they were Double Crossing each other. Ive been watching the sopra s sopranos and thats what this feels like. It couldnt have been that hard 2309 trump people to figure out there was something a little
dodgy. We should remember that the ukrainian anticorruption Truth Commission told the New York Times in August Of 2016 that they had found a ledger in which manafort had been paid 12. 7 million under the table by the previous regime. And that was why he got fired from the campaign. That was part of the reason he got fired from the campaign, but donald trump is still tweeting why didnt anybody warn me about Paul Manafort if he was under investigation. Why didnt the government warn me . But the government did warn him that some people in his campaign had funny connections to russia, that was reported. He obviously knew about it because as john just said, sorry i threw my pen, he was fired for that New York Times report. And there were people in republican circles who had worked with manafort along the way. He built his business over a couple of decades in washington. Democrats too. Democrats too. Who, you know, knew about him. Now, i think the thing about gates today that You Didnt Touch on yet i think that we havent heard a lot about is not only did he acknowledge that he
committed crimes, but he also said today he committed crimes with mr. Manafort. I dont think weve gotten into the details of those yet and thats when we may learn a little bit more about well, financial fraud. And i wonder at what point and ken, ill bring you back in for this. Ken, will we potentially see in the future some more or other indictments or other allegations come out against gates or not gates because hes made a plea deal, but manafort having to do more directly with the 2016 election . Is that still a possibility . Reporter anything is possible, katy. You know, youve got to believe that one of the reasons the government is throwing the book at manafort here, weve all been saying this for months, is that theyre interested in what he might have to say about his meetings with donald trump and his activities in the campaign as it relates to russia and potential collusion, because he was the guy with the russia connections. And so but if that doesnt happen, if he doesnt talk and Doesnt Reach A deal and they
develop other evidence, i can certainly imagine charges. Thats the big mystery here is we do not know. Rudy giuliani doesnt know, we dont know, donald trump Doesnt Know WhatRobert Mueller knows about potential collusion with russia. Its a Big Black Hole and at some point were going to find out, but we dont know now. And weve seen the mueller Team Building a case. They started first with the social media or manafort and gates and then social media and then the russians that hacked the dnc. There is that big last piece, what did the Trump Campaign know, if they knew anything, about collusion. But does donald trump have a good argument politically speaking when he says this isnt about me, theyre going after my guy on financial crimes. This is mueller doing it with the guise of the russia probe, but this has nothing to do with it. Politically speaking, does he have a point . Well, he should, i think, be saying that. Hes not quite saying that. In other words he could say,
look, the big indictment in this case involves actions that took place two years before our campaign and manafort may be guilty and im clear. But because the Whole Mueller Procedure is a witch hunt, according to trump, so too by analogy must the manafort prosecution be an element of a witch hunt and not a real thing. If he were not so negative on mueller, he could be using mueller as a shield for himself. More strategic . I think his tweets this weekend basically confirm that there was a conspiracy to break the law, and his son is at the center of it and, i believe, im not a lawyer, youll have a lawyer and youll ask them that. But when he doctored the Statement Falsifying what that meeting was about, i believe he becomes a coconspirator. Hes the president of the United States. He knew damn well what the meeting was about and he concocted a statement for public release that was put out, that was completely false about that meeting. Joel, youve just perfectly
set up our next block. Thank you very much. Ken dilanian, thank you. If theres more Breaking News on this trial this hour, please let us know. Beth, joel and john, stick with us. President trump now says the Trump Tower Meeting was about getting dirt on Hillary Clinton, as joel just laid out. But is that admission serious political strategy or a serious gaffe . Dear greatgreat grandfather, you made moonshine in a backwoods still. Smuggled booze and dodged the law. Even when they brought you in, they could never hold you down. When i built my family tree and found you, i found my sense of adventure. I set off on a new life, a million miles away. Im heidi choiniere, and this is my ancestry story. Now with over 10 billion historical records, discover your story. Get started for free at ancestry. Com this is a story about mail and packages. And its also a story about people. Year which said that the Trump Tower Meeting was totally not about getting dirt on Hillary Clinton. That statement from july of last year, again, as dictated by the president , said that his campaign, quote, primarily discussed a program about the adoption of russian children and it was not a Campaign Issue at the time. Compare that to the president now saying that it was actually a meeting about getting information on his political opponent. Guys, this is no ordinary meeting were talking about. By all indications, the special counsels office is investigating this meeting. Theyre investigating all of the statements about the meeting and theyre probing the president s tweets, so youd think mueller is keenly interested in this development. Bob bauer was white house kowbe counsel to President Obama. Bob, it is so good to see you. The president s statement, do you read it as an admission that
he initially lied to the public in that dictated statement aboard Air Force One . I dont know that he sees it as an admission or that hed admit that it is an admission, but it clearly constitutes an admission. That is to say theres no way of squaring that message with what he previously said about that meeting. When you are white House Counsel and the president of the United States says i want to tweet something in defense of my son. I dont like this article, and its going to completely contradict what we had initially said, what does white House Counsel say . White House Counsel and in particular in this instance, the personal counsel of the president responsible for his Legal Defense gets on their hands and knees and begs him not to do it. As we know, he does not have a history of listening to his lawyers. I think i saw some quotation in the press today, some Close Associates saying he cannot help himself. So he is fighting his lawyers or is not getting very good advice. Could you argue that there is some sort of strategy here . Is there something to be said about him contradicting himself left and right, never being
well, lying a lot. The Washington Post has been cataloging all of his false statements. Theyre up to 7,000 or 4,000 now. A lot essentially. Is there a strategy to being all over the place . No, theres no strategy at all. In fact its possibly harmful to him. At the moment his lawyers are negotiating with mueller over whether hes going to give testimony. Their argument is, well, you dont need to hear what he has to say, but in fact he keeps on putting facts into evidence out of his own tweets, if you will, and therefore he strengthens muellers hand that he has to speak to him, mueller has to speak to the president. Whats interesting about the end of it was this was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal and done all the time in politics and it went nowhere. I did not know about it. Number one, is it totally legal and does it happen all the time in politics . It is not legal and it does not happen all the time that political campaigns enter into political alliances with foreign governments. Foreign governments come to offer help to a campaign and the
campaign welcomes them. That is fraught with legal consequences. There are Campaign Finance laws, under provisions that broadly prohibit that sort of political interaction. And then what else struck me in this tweet is the final line. I did not know about it. Why does he feel the need to include that when it seems like he knows Everything Else about this meeting . Whos to say except that he obviously wants to say on the one hand, my son didnt do anything wrong, but on the other hand hes being cautious and saying just in case, i had nothing to do with it. So theres an inconsistency of message there. What is most troubling about what hes doing is hes putting facts out there while at the same time saying why would the special counsel need to speak to me . When the special counsel reads a tweet like this, what are they thinking . Two things i would think speaking broadly. Number one, they have drawn a picture of the president s behavior, his reliability, whether he can be trusted on these issues. Secondly, i think it just strengthens their resolve to have the interview. If that comes down to a subpoena fight, it comes down to a subpoena fight. The president is in bedminster, new jersey. Rudy giuliani said they are will decide whether to sit down with the mueller team. The mueller team agreed to limit the scope of the questions but not to take out obstruction from the questions. Is there reason to believe that this is not just some madeup timeline from Rudy Giuliani but that muellers team might have said, hey, listen, we need an answer on this. If you dont give us a yes answer, were going to use a different tact . Meaning the issuance of a subpoena. That could very well have happened. Weve waited for a while, weve made a series of adjustments, weve tried to accommodate you, trimming down the number of questions and taking some of them in writing but were not going to be patient forever. Particularly at the same time the president is saying he wants mueller to wrap it up. Don junior is out talking about this meeting again. He was on with a friendly face on the Laura Ingraham show. Lets thing to don junior. Donnie, did the issue of adoption, its near and dear to
my heart i know, weve spoken about it. Did that come up . When . In the meeting with that was the primary thing that we had spoken about in the meeting. That was thats not the premise that got them in the room and then they started it was essentially a bait and switch to talk about that. Everyone has basically said that in testimony already. It was a bait and switch. So its again don junior saying i took the meeting because this was political dirt and then they wanted to talk about adoptions. And he was disappointed and who knows what else was said in the meeting. That doesnt help us very much but what else do you have which would be illegal solicitation of support from a foreign national. The late Charles Krauthammer wrote last year bungled collusion is still collusion. Don junior keeps saying nothing came out of it. Does that mastter . No. It could be an illegal this
is just not one act. The Trump Tower Meeting fits into a broader narrative that suggests that the Trump Campaign was welcoming and actively soliciting support of the russian government. The russian government did provide some support we now k w know. According to my reporting, don junior has not been interviewed by the special counsel. What does that say to you . Nobody ever wants to know that theyre going to be the end of the line, that prosecutors are working their way up. If theyre working their way up thats not a good sign, but its very hard to say at this point. Jay sekulow, after that Trump Tower Statement was made, he was emphatic. Donald trump had nothing whatsoever to do about it. Then it was revealed in a memo by Donald Trumps lawyers that the president actually dictated that statement aboard Air Force One. S sekelow said he had Bad Information about his involvement. Bad information. Where does that Bad Information come from . The president. I mean theres so hes potentially lying to his lawyers . That seems to be the implication. Where would he have gotten the Bad Information . The only person who would have known would be the president. Hope hicks was with him over the weekend. Why would a former white house employee go to visit him, a former employee whos also under scrutiny for taking the