Tamara keith, White House Correspondent for npr. And ken vogel political reporter for the New York Times. Thank you all for being with us especially as part of our Leadoff Panel tonight. Ken, ill lead off with you. What do you make of this bank subpoena, if true, is it a big deal . What else does it speak of . Absolutely. We always kind of knew that this was a possibility that mueller would start looking into Donald Trumps finances and this subpoena, again, if it is accurate that Deutsche Bank has been subpoenaed, would indicate that he is fully going down that route. Deutsche bank is significant because donald trump it has at least 130 million worth of Donald Trumps debt and it sold some of that debt or could have sold some of that debt to russian banks. That could potentially give these russian banks some leverage over donald trump. And so you have the combination here potentially of Donald Trumps finances as well as his
dealings with russia and how those two things intertwine. So even if the subpoena has not actually been executed, it would stand to reason that this would be a path that mueller would eventually go down. Michael, i dont need to tell you someone eventually at every Cocktail Party in washington and new york will corner you and make the point, youre looking for collusion, its the financial stuff. Thats where youre going to find it. Yeah. We also know that mueller has appointed a very powerful deputy on that front. Question to you is, do you think trumps red line has shifted a bit on this . Well, it may have. Again, as ken notes, and your leadin noted theres question about whether these banks have been subpoenaed. A lot of very credible reporting
from multiple news outlets in some cases with a good amount of detail suggesting that this has happened. But donald trump did say at the prompting of the New York Times reporter several months ago that if the Mueller Investigation were go into his personal or Family Finances that could be cause for him to fire Robert Mueller. Politico had some reporting tonight that Congressional Democrats are freshly alarmed that trump could be headed in this direction, theyre redoubling their efforts to try to come up with some sort of legislative shield to make it more difficult for trump to take a step like that. But i think theres both a sense, number one, that has ken said, this is an appropriate direction for mueller to look in. And, number two, that it might mean that mueller might need a little more backstop in case trump does decide to lash out at him over this. Tamara, what will you make of this story for your npr listeners across the country and
around the world and more importantly, what do you make of the white house response on this front thus far . Well, jay sekulow was the president s private attorney and youre right in your intro that that statement was oddly phrased. And what were trying to figure out and we dont quite know the answer to is maybe this coming down to the word subpoena . As in is sekulow focused on a specific word where maybe theyve requested the records in some other way. Yes, it was its not even a double negative, it was like a reverse run around. With a twist. Half positive half negative with a twist. Absolutely. Were still trying to figure out just what it is he said there. Ken, if youre a member of the house intelligence committee, in walks donald trump jr. , in walks
people like us, ha do you want know from him. You want to know about this june 2016 meeting with the russian lawyer and lobbyist as well that the russian lawyer has now provided testimony that donald trump was specifically curious about whether he could get information, damaging information about Financial Support for the clinton foundation. This is something that has been a subject of dispute, but it really gets at this potential collusion. When this meeting was set up with by emails from this british publicist Rob Goldstone to donald trump jr. , that was the suggestion, that this lawyer would be bringing some damaging information about clintons to the meeting. Theres some dispute about whether this occurred. Now she is saying that even at the meeting that trump donald trump jr. Continued to ask for it. Thats a key question that id be interesting in knowing an answer to. And in meeting elements of which kind of dribbled out
continues to loom large over all of this. Yeah, brian, the meeting is very interesting. I think its the most the meeting that is closest to trumps inner circle or does involve trumps inner circle and also involves russian whos have ties to the kremlin, i think that weve seen a lot of very suspicious activity on the part of figures who are appear for peripheral although we dont completely understand who they are but carter page and George Papadopoulos are traveling to europe, page went to russia, met with a lot of different people, were still filling in the picture. But these are not, you know, Blood Relatives of the president sitting down in trump tower with Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner at the table. So you really want to know everything about this meeting. I just want to link these two subjects, brian, and say that
people are very focused on collusion. Its still not clear whether there was any collusion, but whats interesting about the Deutsche Bank and the financial records is whether there was Financial Leverage over trump that wouldnt necessarily constitute collusion, might not even involve a crime, but it would be very important to know if donald trump was essentially in hock to russia and therefore have strategy that would be pleasing to putin. And that would not be collusion but might not be impeachable but a fundamental question that we dont have the answer to because he wont release his tax returns. And repeated effort bending over backwards to show the benefit of the doubt to all things and all russians this past political season. So tamara, if youre the president of the United States and you know tomorrow your son is Behind Closed Doors before house intel and this is already a time of shall we call it
increased sensitivity, whats likely to happen . Well, and your lawyers have been reassuring you that everything is going to be okay and by christmas in maralago, yeah. I cant imagine my son testifying before a committee so its got to be tough. But the president of the United States also has to continue to be the president of the United States. And he continues to assert that there is no collusion. You know, the thing about all of these stories that have come out today is theyre just like tiny little pieces of this Bigger Picture that we cant really see, and it is a reminder that Robert Mueller has a very big job on his hands and that and that as journalists we only see sort of a very small part of it. We see like toe nails of the elephant and maybe a little bit of tail every once in a while. Ken vogel, what is the best
case scenario, donald trump jr. As jimmy kimmel wishes we would call him d. J. , t. J. Testifies tomorrow, is a headline saying he spoke forthrightly, he took all of our questions, he stayed overtime, what is it . Well, i dont know about the headline, but i think what they want, what theyre argument has been here is that donald trump jr. Simply didnt know what he was doing. He wasnt trying to solicit some sort of Opposition Research from the russian government. He wasnt trying to strike any kind of deal. When he talked previously to sort of link these two stories about how much business the Trump Organization did from russia, he was just kind of Speaking Extemporaneously and not about anything in particular. Unfortunately for him the best defense might be pleading ignorance or incompetence or
some combination of the two both on this meeting and some of the stuff related to the Trump Organization finances and his connection to russia. Doesnt make him look great, but maybe an argument that could see the way that the president himself hopes to sort of conclusion of this without any charges against him or his family. Three terrific journalists, always a great conversation. Michael crowley, tamara keith, ken vogel, thanks to the three of you. Coming up, roy moore now has the full weight of the Republican Party and the white house and the president behind him. So what might any of it mean for his fellow republicans like all of the House Of Representatives up for election in 2018 . And up next, what do todays developments on russia tell us about Robert Muellers investigation . Well talk to a man who worked with him when The 11th Hour continues. Jimmys gotten used to his whole Room Smelling like sweaty odors. Someone asked you a question about mueller going after an Obstruction Case or going after the president. You bris will you didnt want to put it that way because that gives motive to this this man you know. Start by telling the audience what you told me during the commercial break about bob mueller. Hes the hardest working man ive ever seen and it was difficult even though im some years younger to keep up with him. You got in at 5 00 a. M. I did and i Didnt Beat Him in by very much. Whats i had managerial style and work ethic and how could that reflect on this case hes been handed. He works as hard adds anyone. He doesnt ask anyone to do something that he, himself, wouldnt do. Hes a man of tremendous integrity. I dont mean to gush because im afraid im about to, but working for him is an enormous privilege. Being a part of the fbi and working for a man like bob mueller is great privilege. It bothered me that somebody
said and i dont think they meant anything by it that bob mueller is going after the president or hes seeking to put together an Obstruction Case, i dont think either of those things are true. What hes doing is applying the facts to the law. When you follow the law, you get the facts and apply them to the law and if at the end of the day a particular person or a particular set of charges become pertinent, then so be it. You bring those charges against that person. But i dont think hes out to get anyone. Let me ask you a lawyer question about john dowd. Effective john dowd claiming credit to be the author of the tweet that to some implied or confirmed obstruction of justice if such a thing can happen in our world. He took a position in this case. Right. Does that mean hes going to have to not represent the president anymore because he
could conceivably be asked did you, in fact, write that tweet . I guess its conceivable. But theres also ways around that. For instance, if the only you asked the lawyer questions im afraid youre going to get a lawyer answer. Thats all right, we came prepared. Or maybe a prosecutor answer. But, if the only fact that the mueller team needs that john dowd wrote that email, they can stipulate to that. So theres probably a way around a potential conflict. Frankly i dont think its a great moment. When we hear about the Deutsche Bank potential subpoenas, is that further evidence to an experienced guy like you that Donald Trumps tax returns have been sitting on bob muellers desk for a week now. Yes, let me take that in two parts. When i was an assistant u. S. Attorney, a line prosecutor, i handled white collar criminal occasions. And one of the first things do
you in such a case is you get the tax returns of the people youre looking at. Why . Because from those tax returns you can figure out where money is coming from and where money is going to. In fact, if you look at the manafort and gates indictment, its obvious that they had the tax returns and used those to issue a whole bunch of subpoenas to get more information. So should we assume that the mueller team has the tax returns and not just the president but perhaps of his subsidiaries and folks he works with, you bet we should. I dont know that by know what i did as a prosecutor and that would be a very logical step and based on that you issue subpoenas. So to my way of thinking its not remarkable if Deutsche Bank got a subpoena. It would be remarkable if they did not. How does it feel for you as a career man of the law and Law Enforcement to see the fbi under attack, criticized, trolls,
called in tatters . This is the fbi after all. And i was proud to work for it under two tremendous directors, both bob mueller and jim comey. It pains me. Its not in tatters. I cant prove it to you sitting here, but i can offer you a method of proof. The federal Courthouse Doors in this nation are to every citizen. You can walk into any courthouse in america, in albuquerque, topeka and albany, you can watch a federal criminal trial. You can watch the men and women of the fbi or the atf or the dea testifying, you can see the fruits of their labor. Theyre not in tatters. This is a strong, proud, vibrant organization. You can call it whatever you want, but im telling what you it is. It is not in tatters. Its a pleasure being able for us to be able to bounce these questions off a man of your experience. My pleasure. Thank you very much. Yes, sir. For being with us. We look forward to many more appearances by chuck rosenberg. Coming up here, chris
matthews is here in the studio and will join us to help break down everything weve learned just today in this investigation. So far in this presidency, and whether these two notions are on a collision course, thats when The 11th Hour continues. Weve just had in the commercial break in were pleased to welcome our friend Chris Matthews obviously host of hardball and in case you are the american who hasnt heard, author of the New York Times best seller Bobby Kennedy, a Rage Willing Spirit which i can personally tell is you a great book and great read and deserves its spot on the amazon politics column number one as you go on that vast bookstore. I watch you every evening. You love our newsroom because all you can hear is your voice between 7 00 and 8 00 p. M. Eastern time. Nothing gets you angry. Theres two things that gets you angry, number one the number of medals on the north korean army uniforms. What wars did they fight in theyre too young. And second, anything that causes you to compare the trump family to the romanoffs. Yes. Why. Because it seems like a family is running the country. Almost like an nba star, these have his entourage with him about but its always ivanka and his soninlaw. You see a picture of the Cabinet Meeting and theyre around him. Of course the Romanoffs Didnt End too well, its not a perfect model. This is actually germane and its important because do you think that Jared Kushner with his Harvard Education and his experience in new York Real Estate understands that if we move that embassy to jerusalem we could spark a fullon antifa and real people could die . I believe thats the hor and i believe i lived in the jersey city for a month, i understood the intricacy of that city and the beauty is you hear the call to prayer which is wonderful for westerners ear. And you see the jewish people going to church all day and to sin going and you see the armenians and theyre sort of
medieval costumes and everythings intricately working together and as you suggested, why do you want to shake that up . Because it looks like were recognize the state of israels exclusive right to jerusalem, in other words all of jerusalem, including all of the sacred spot there where Mohamed Ascended Into Heaven as they believe, all that take it all away. I wish the president would say at least its still open to discussion what were going to do with east jerusalem. And they said theyre already cutting off the palestinians from going to their capital city that theyve always thought as their capital. Its just crazy. Youve seen this with shah ron in years, you went up on the temple mount that time and all the said theres an antifa. And by the way we would have an American Embassy blown up somewhere in the world, it could
be in istanbul, it could be in indonesia, it would be in africa somewhere. It would be in east africa, kenya, tanzania, were everywhere, americans, were much more exposed than israel, ironically r a small country, because we have people everywhere in the world that could be picked up and basically be killed because of what we just did. And we dont know the explosive power of the consequences. By the way for all of u. S. Embassy and state Department Security people around the job who take their job of defending americans so seriously, this has been a very serious time. That reminds me, you are a selfadmitted institutionalist. Right. You believe in the powers of government to serve people. Having said that, what do you mourn the most . Is it the 2,000 diplomats that are no longer the