We cant keep our country closed down for years, and we have to do something. And hopefully that wont be the case, john, but it very well could be the case. We cant have our whole country out. Cant do it. The country wont take it. It wont stand it. Its not sustainable. Now there is Science Behind waiting longer to reopen in many places. The president pushing obviously thor way. As we have seen more states reopen, we can actually assess in realtime, and it is a grim process, believe me, but we can assess what this does when you reopen in different places. We are seeing spikes in different parts of the country. This chart is courtesy of the New York Times. You see new york on the left, the epicenter of the breakout in a state that has been under these stayathome orders. The case number, though, is coming down, even in that hard hit area on the left that is the slope you see. Now look to the right. Thats the rest of the nation, which is confronting a growing surge. You can see the curve of new cases in new york down very clearly. And you see the rest of the curve up. And lets be clear. Most of the people in most of the country dont want to live in what new york looked like over the past few weeks, and yet the red arrow you see is a sign to varying degrees of what we may be in for. This is real. This is serious. This is what were facing. Lets take a look at one example of a populous state. Not the same as new york, but has a lot of people. Has some big metropolitan areas. Were looking at texas. Today we are getting a little extra insight into how texas is figuring this out. Its a tough call, as weve covered for governors in every single place. But there is some leaked audio. This is a Conference Call with legislators in that state. This is state level policy making. And you have the governor there, greg abbott, who basically says to the people who hes working with that he admits the virus will continue to be spreading and thus potentially increasing after texas reopens. I want you to know, because we always want you to know what youre seeing and hearing, the source of this audio was put out by a progressive organization, that is to say probably pretty critical of Governor Abbott in general. What youre looking at looks to be quite valid because we checked with the Governors Office isnt disputing what youre about to hear, that he said this. Pretty much every scientific and medical report shows that whenever you have a reopening, whether you want to call it a reopening of business or just a reopening of study in the aftermath of Something Like this, that actually will lead to an increase in spread. Its almost ipso facto. Ipso facto, automatic. And texas is seeing the case of these cases rise as it reopens various parts of life, including in the way theyre doing it in that state, mall, movie theater, dinin and restaurants. Unlike the president , some of them are publicly acknowledging the tradeoffs. Others are holding back on fully reopening. There is a range of ways to do it. This is tough. I want to also tell you that the president is meeting with a different governor, this one from iowa, a state that didnt go very far from shutting down to begin with. Begin, it is gramming with the consequences. They have real life and death consequences. Iowas latest numbers show the rate of infection growing with over 10,000 cases to date. The states meat packing plants were forced to close because there were 1,600 workers who were sick across four plants in the state. This is obviously very real life for everyone who works in that kind of plant, who knows someone there, lives with someone there. These are all real decisions, real policy tradeoffs. We were actually speaking, again, because weve been trying to keep up with this on the ground around the country with the mayor of sioux city, iowa, one of the hardest hit places. Take a listen. A lot of people want the get out, get moving, get things going, and a lot of others are very scared about what the results will be if we go too quickly. So what are you telling your constituents day to day right now . Be vigilant, stay at home if you possibly can, wear a mask, continue to wash your hands, continue to do everything you can to stay safe. To begin our coverage tonight, yes joined by democratic congressman joan venby of massachusetts. They have a mandatory face mask order going into effect there today. Dr. Megan ran anyand professor of medicine at Brown University and katty kay, washington anchor for bbc news. Thanks to all of you for joining. Doctor, how do you contrast just two leaders we showed there, the president basically playing down the idea that there is a tradeoff to be made, saying, hey, its inevitable. Weve got to get back to work, and the Texas Governor in a moment that he may have thought wasnt going to be on television admitting that when you reopen, your infection rate goes up . So i think there are two important things to take away from that, ari. The first is this virus is not behind us. It is not in the rear view mirror. We have not vanquished it. It is still amongst us. The Texas Governor is correct. We are going to see increased spread. That said, most Public Health professionals are not calling as trump claims for a forever shutdown of our country. We, like everyone, are anxious to protect the mental and emotional and Economic Health of americans. What we are asking for is a sciencedriven reopening where we have adequate testing, we have adequate protective equipment we have adequate access to hospital beds. And the fear is when we reopen, based purely on emotion and not based on science, without providing that scientific underpinning for the reopening, we are putting lives of americans at risk. Congressman . Wholehearted by agree with the doctor, right . And that should be i think the stance of most of our policymakers at this point. It is that we let science drive the day. Look, this is what dr. Fauci said at the very beginning of this crisis. The virus is going to respond to science, not hope and aspiration. Look, i would love nothing more than to return to normal. I think all of us would. But the reality is these decisions have life and death consequences and you cant be playing around with matters of life and death. Last point real quick. I was in chelsea, massachusetts yesterday. One of the communities hardest hit of my community in the country. I have never seen a longer line for food in my entire life, in all of my travels and my time living in the developed world. The impact that this is having on our communities that is going to be felt for years is very real. The idea that policymakers would somehow do something that would allow for this to spike up again is just unconscionable. Youre talking about what youre seeing in your work, services out with the people you represent. And on that point, congressman, take a listen to some of the ontheground report we are having from how hard hit people are in small businesses. I have delved into my seays account to pay for my employees, and i will continue to do so. Half my people still cant even get paid from the state. Weve done everything on our end. Its really hard because i dont know when ill get another job, and i also dont know if ill get unemployment. So its been a very difficult time. As youre saying, congressman, its very hard for so many people out here. Im going repeat myself as we do sometimes in the news. These are all people who played by the rules, who went to work, paid their taxes, did their jobs, all of that. And 30 million plus out of a job not because they werent doing a good job, not because they oh, they took a bet on a business that just didnt work. No. Because of this macro health crisis. Its none of our dos. What do you see as the ethical obligation then of government, of congress when you see these stories how hearth hard it is for people and yet youre saying the science requires even more hardship before we get out from under . So lets be clear about a couple of point theres, right . Its not so much that they didnt do anything wrong. Its that they did exactly what they were supposed to do or what they have to do. The reason why chelsea has an infection rate from this virus from known cases, right, and thats a massive underestimate, but as of last week was not nine times higher than the state average. Why . Its largely immigrant population, a higher percentage of essential workers, the folks that make the rest of our society run. Yeah, a lot of them live there. Its the fact that youve got multigenerational households. Its language barriers. Its the exploitation that we actually see across so many segments of our society and then we turn around and say oh, im sorry, you dont even get access to the health care you need in order to prevent the spread of this virus. So what is the ethical response . One, there could not be clearer call to make sure everyone gets access to health care in country, and its not just insurance coverage. That means you get treated and youre not going to face bankruptcy. It means we address the structure. Go ahead. Since you bring that up, and we want to get into that, and then im going to bring katty kay in. I want to bring detail into this. Youve got a bill here with about 30 other members of congress, and you basically are saying with millions stripped of Health Coverage around jobs, the job crisis, House Democrats want emergency expansion of medicare and medicaid. So specifically, what are you trying to do here . Were trying to make sure that people get access to the health care that they need when they need it. Its a global pandemic. And this shot should not be earth shattering. Ill defer to the doctor here. But like dear god, what are we supposed to be doing . So the idea behind this deal, pretty simple, if youre unemployed, you get sign upped for medicare. And we have a drastic expansion of medicaid too. So make sure that every Single Person is going to be able to access the health care that they need to stop the spread of the virus. Because if there is one essential lesson of this moment is that i cannot guarantee my own health if somebody else might be sick and spreading this virus undetected. So my Health Depends on yours and your Health Depends on mine. So lets make sure were all healthy. Thats the goal. Understood. We did a Little Medicine here. We did a little government. Katty kay, i come to you for the journalism. Your views on all the above. Look, i think americas approach to reopening has got to be this balance. Everywhere is dealing with the same thing, between protecting peoples livelihoods and making sure the people are as safe as possible when it comes to the risk from the virus. I think what is unique about the United States is that this reopening process looks so haphazard. That different states are doing Different Things and it doesnt seem to make very much sense. It certainly doesnt make very much scientific sense. There is no reason behind what is doing. Why is georgia opening tattoo parlors . Why is texas opening shopping malls . And when you look at some of the countries who have done this before the u. S. , its very methodical. So italy, for example, has Just Announced that it wont open bars and restaurants until the reproductive rate of this virus is at 0. 5. So each person only infects half another person. It woken open museums and theaters until the rate is down to zero. I think people would be reassured to know there was Scientific Method behind what was taking place. That would then give people the confidence to go into the places of business, because at the moment, frankly, even the states that are opening up are finding that most people dont feel confident about going back to visit those businesses. Understood. Katty, i also wanted to play a little bit for you of the president. You mo w. H. O. Have been following know a long before the pandemic, the president has certain places he goes. Fox news often. He does some talk radio, and he made his points in the briefing room, attacking various reports. As katty knows and viewers follow, its unusual for him to step out. He is going on network news. See going on abc. Take a look at one clip. Do you believe thats the reality were facing that lives will be lost to reopen the country . Its possible there will be some because you wont be locked into an apartment or a house or whatever it is. But at the same time, were going practice social distancing. Were going washing hands. Were going to be doing a lot of the things that weve learned to do over the last period of time. And we have to get our country back. What do you think of both what the president is arguing and as we head into the summer what he is effectively doing as campaigning, get our country back, you know, far be it from him to put the rhetoric aside for a Global Health disaster that is worth the death toll of ten plus 9 11s. But what do you think of what he is doing here, katty . Look, i think the muddle that weve seen over the last 24 hours about whether the Coronavirus Task force was going to be disbended or not is so emblematic of the president s own ambivalence about the guidelines that he himself put in place that his white house instituted. He has never really been behind them. Why didnt he tour a mask when he toured honeywell yesterday . Why has he been so anxious to say ewe got reopen . Its like he is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. He wants to be in the mode of getting the economy going and the stock market back up again that appears to be his priority. And every time he doesnt wear a mask, every time he says liberate virginia, he is undercutting the Public Health message that he is meant to be the prime proponent on. I think thats really confusing for people. Really important thanks. I want to thank katty kay and congressman kennedy for kicking us off tonight. The doctor comes back for Something Special were doing later in the hour. Ill see you soon. After the break, we have insiders now accusing Jared Kushner of fumbling the coronavirus response, detailing cronyism within his handpicked team. And what is its future after Donald Trumps own aides say it might be disbanded . And layer, well get into something you may have been thinking about, public shaming in the age of the coronavirus. It worked against mike pence. But how do you do it constructively . How do you do it in a way that helps more than it hurts . Thats a discussion were having. And later, outcry of this new deadly shooting in georgia. The victims family explaining that this individual was out for a jog unarmed. Have i the family attorney with me as a special and newsworthy guest on that important story later tonight. Im ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. He beat on msnbc. Technologies advisor. Me too. Me too. And if youre a small business, were with you. 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The Washington Post and the New York Times have both reported that the team was completely plagued