Proportionate as we can be on this, like any other story. There are many parts of america where this weekend people did continue social distancing. That includes hardhit places like new york, seattle, and l. A. , where some local quarantines also remain in effect. Yet youve probably seen the images by now. We also saw these scenes at many beaches and public areas where people did come out and did get close to each other and rarely use masks that was also the norm in ozark, missouri, where you cannee the party raged on. Now that States Health officials are urging those partygoers, the people you see right here, among others, to selfquarantine for 14 days. Which is quite a cost for one day out if they do it. Or take north carolina, where thousands poured in for a speedway opening night. No masks in sight. And yet that state is one of several where the cases are still increasing right now, at least 15 states are in the tough spot of here we are months into this seeing their caseload increase. You can see where they are, if you live in one of them, as you look at the map. More cases means almost certainly with the march of the virus more fatalities, as the United States approaches a grim milestone of 100,000 deaths. This is a complex problem. It doesnt really benefit from extremism. Rushing outside in tight spaces with strangers and no masks is an extreme because everything weve learned and the cdc recommend against doing that. Now staying isolated inside indefinitely during a phase reopening or treating masks as a Silver Bullet to prevent everything under the sun, thats also an extreme. The initial arrival of this virus tested us all. The next phase will present a different test. How do we focus on science and nuance rather than just black and white choices . How do we wrestle with these tradeoffs without letting each and every one devolve into polarized politicking . How do we do that with an election approaching . I want to tell you, as we start a new workweek, thats not just a challenge for people flouting cdc guidelines, which, yes, does sadly include the president. Its also a challenge for anyone reflexively combining every decision and pandemic policy with preexisting views of donald trump, whatever they may be. So its not easy. I bet you know what im talking about, as i talk to you through the screen. But i bet if your life is like so many other peoples lives, youve had conversations that devolve like this. By the way, friends or family or on virtual zoom, and people say forget about it. Lets not even talk about it. But of course this is a part of our life and health and the economic decisions we have to talk about it if were going to try to get any of it right. And maintaining a scientific equilibrium, i have to note for you, becomes even harder when trump insiders are going around saying things like this. Donald trumps former white house chief of staff who infamously defended the ukraine plot by saying get over it, he is now claiming there is some perspective that can be reached that will show that there was a, quote, overreaction to this virus. Keep in mind the death toll is now higher than the number of americans lost in several wars combined. At Columbia University analysis lost perspective on this. Almost 100,000 people died just a few years ago from flu, and the country didnt shut down. Its time to sort of deal with this in the proper perspective, and thats to allow us to get back to work safely. Now we turn to our expert, the former governor of new jersey, Christine Todd whitman. She also led the epa under geor bush. David frum, a former speech writer in the bush administration, now writer for the atlantic. His book is trumpocalypse restoring american democracy. And head of Global Health in emergency medicine at Columbia University. Good day to all of you. Doctor, your view on that assessment of this as an essential, quote, overreaction . Well, have i this granular and really unfortunately very personal view of what happens to patients who get covid and to their families. Ive called so many family members on facetime and shared with them the last memboments o their family members lives as they died. For me neither of those can be an overreaction. The point is here is that were creating this false dichotomy between the economy opening and Public Health. And thats because whats happened so far is i think we politicize a Public Health response. The reason we have 100 or nearly 100,000 deaths in this country is because we werent prepared and we didnt respond appropriately. My concern now is that as this curve is going down in many places, youre seeing people get out. The weather is really nice. I understand that Everyone Wants to get back out. We are not done with this. We will continue to see this virus throughout the summer, through the fall, and unfortunately through the winter. We have nothing else other than bread and butter public practice until we have a vaccine thats still a long way off. David . I think what is being discussed here by some of the people in the trump world is the creation of a stab in the back legend. They are in a way they are litigating or prelitigating the aftermath of the political troubles that are going to strike the Trump Administration in november. Whied which delose . We didnt lose because we messed up the handling of the virus because we put tens of millions of people out of work. Well lost because some sinister cabal of eggheads and showoffs and ungrateful minorities, they closed the government and the economy and we suffered the resulted of it. So this is the premanufacture of an excuse that youre witnessing, and its being done, as the doctor said, without any regard to real human toll, both from a health point of view and an economic point of view. Governor whitman, as mentioned before, youve been in this spot where youre doing science and government negotiation. And there could be pressures of various kinds. I think many have observed this is a far greater gulf than usual because the president literally undercuts the science at the very appearances he makes with the doctors, which has been common denominator repeatedly. Take a listen to dr. Birx here new on sunday, undercutting or at least disagreeing with the way hes put it. Here we go. Im very concerned when people go out and dont maintain social distancing. We also know its important that we have to have masks on if were less than six feet, and that we have to maintain that sixfeet distance. We know being outside does have help. We know sun does help in killing the virus, but that doesnt change the fact that people need to be responsible and maintain that distance. Governor . Well, i agree with her. Its not asking much of us to put a mask on. That really isnt. And as a country, we should come together and say this is the least we can do for our fellow citizens, not the most, but the very least and Pay Attention to what the scientists are telling us. Its very difficult to do when you the president going around saying im not going to wear a mask. You know, its so stupid. If you think you look dumb wearing a mask, just imagine how dumb you look when youre wearing a hospital gown. This is not the this is not the dichotomy we should be putting together. This is not how you decide this. Yes, we want to open up. Of course we do. We want to get the economy going. And there are ways to do that, sensible ways to do that, but its going to have to be incremental. There is no reason to think this is going to go away. Its not going away. For all the people who still believe its a hoax and its not a big deal, i dont want anybody to get the virus, but i almost want to say if anybody has to get it, then the people who have refused to adhere by the social distancing and think its all a hoax and ridiculous because the president isnt scared, theyre not going to be scared, and he doesnt wear a mask, so im not going wear a mask, and thats what theyre saying, those are the ones that really ought to get it, not the ones who are trying to be responsible. But unfortunately, thats not what happens with this disease. I dont wish the virus on anyone, david. No. But the point being raised it works in the way it does. And the very people who might pose great risks by being asymptomatic some of them, for some reasons there are other Health Behaviors we expect. You are expected not to drive drunk and there is indeed criminal sanction for that for the very reason even if somebody claims, and i want any kids listening at home, im not saying this is true. But even if somebody thinks in their mind oh, i drive in rural idaho, im willing to take that risk, and i had a drink, its not only about you and your car, because of the other cars on the road. Very basic son accept, david. I want to put on for your analysis where were seeing cases go up right now. Because the New York Times is showing the potential covid outbreaks by the high daily growth rates. And its arkansas, texas, parts of california, arizona, tennessee, david. Right. But it remains not this disease is not its not a moral question. Its not an equal opportunity attacker, the way very few things in america are equal opportunity. And even as the virus spreads from the dense cities of the coast to the interior of the country, its not affecting everyone equally. In the interior of the country it strikes prisons. It strikes meat packing plants. It strikes the poorer and the older and nursing homes. Its a very painful thing to face, but the Trump Administration is making a more or less calculated decision that as weve discussed often on this program that they can take the punch, and the punch will be suffered by people who are not going support the president anyway. And then the economic benefits will accrue to people who do support the president. And its very coldblooded. It may turn out to be in the end wrong, but its calculated that we are trading risk and benefit, but not randomly. The risks to our opponents, the benefits to our friends. Doctor . I think looking at those numbers, what really strikes me is just what was said. This is not an equal opportunity virus. Look at yuma, arizona and the fact that the impact and the per capita cases on the Navajo Nation have been higher than even in new york city. We know that this is disproportionately impacted communities of color, already vulnerable communities, and every time that i see people outside flouting social distancing, getting into a pool, pretending like this cant impact them, im thinking about who that puts at risk. It puts at risk all the people who may work alongside those people, all of the other people exposed. These are essential employees that quite frankly dont have the same opportunity to social distance, dont have the samific ability to stay home. And that unfortunately is what ive seen, what weve seen here in new york city. And we know its going to happen all throughout the country. The other thing i get really worried about looking at where cases are increasing is that here in new york city, we were able to bring in a massive navy ship. We were able to convert a Convention Center for overflow capacity. That does not exist in a lot of Rural Communities and a lot of the communities that could potentially be disproportionately impacted by this. Scaling up icu beds as were seeing in alabama right now. Scaling up critical care, other things that will be necessary to decrease mortality and provide the right quality of care is not as easily done in many places as it is in new york city. Quite frankly, i think we dodged a bullet by a day or two. We got lucky. Right. And the time is not equal either here. Some places are in a later stage than others. And so although were on the National News and there is plenty of National Conversation and the internet you can see any part of the country, for those lives in some of these places weve just highlighted, you may be at the front end. You may be at the risk of what other places were facing earlier like march. And thats important, as the doctor pointed out. Dr. Spencer, david forum, and governor whitman, thanks to each of you. We have a lot more on tonights shows. Coming up, there are protests on this case regarding a man dying after being restrained. The controversial maneuver by police. Video shows him repeatedly saying you see it in still right there in the photograph quote, i cant breathe. We have that story later tonight. And discussing Donald Trumps plans for a boisterous inperson convention. Meantime, new fears about scenes like this that weve been discussing. What you need to know to keep yourself safe, and how to make riskadjusted decisions. Also tonight, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist from the New York Times i should say Thomas Friedman, also an author is back on the beat. It will be interesting to get his perspective. Im ari melber, and we will be right back. Right back Payment Relief options to eligible members so they can pay for things like groceries before they worry about their insurance or credit card bills. Discover all the ways were helping members today. 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Welcome back. You know, the news is full of reports about what politicians say and do, and we all know sometimes the impact can be quite limited. Other times, what they say and do can set the agenda for lifeanddeath decisions. Many have seen this weekends contrast of biden wearing a mask. Trump did not. It was all over the news. Its all over the internet. It is now something we all are living through. But here is how its actually playing out. Consider the packed beaches in alabama this weekend. I want you to see this. This is a region where the president is popular. And beachgoers clearly say their Health Decisions are following their president. I mean, if he is not wearing a mask, im not wearing a mask. If he is not worried, im not worried. The president . Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay. For the president s critics, that is an indictment. Now if you wanted to root on any president , imagine a president who deployed the same apparent influence that you see there to encourage people to actually follow his administrations guidelines. That would be a good thing. Mr. President , you could do that. It would, according to the science, reduce cases right there in alabama, which is currently seeing a spike in cases as it reopens. And the point here is not to criticize any given president. I promise you, if he does that, we will report it and we will talk to people, including experts, who say its a good thing, as i just said it would be. But the president chooses not to do that, and chooses to go further in the other direction mocking his rival joe biden for wearing one, which further politicized this, which as you know is a concern of mine as i mentioned at the top of our broadcast. And the president does all that not only as the cdc, but even several other republicans, governors in the states that are closest to this are urging people to protect themselves and follow the science. I would really love to see in north dakota that we could just skip this thing that other parts of the nation are going through where theyre creating a divide. Either its ideological or political or something around mask versus no mask. This is not about politics. This is not about whether youre liberal or conservative, left or right, republican, democrat. You wear the mask not to protect yourself so much as to protect others. Protect others. Thats what its about. And if you want to be idealistic, or what some would just call ethical, you should care about those others no matter who they are. But you think youd especially care if they were other people that you already care about, you already deal with, that youre already living with. We all know you care a lot about your own community, your own family. President trump, though is doing Something Different as well. He is pushing for a Republican Convention with a boisterous live crowd as a deliberate contrast to the events held by democrats. And a chance on depending how it goes, it could pose a risk. How should americans stay focused on the health right now . Kathleen sebelius and Gene Robinson have r going to tackle it all when were back in just 30 seconds. N just 30 seconds but youre not because you have e trade which isnt complicated. Their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. Dont get mad get e trade. From anyone else. So why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms which most pills dont. Get allinone allergy relief for 24 hours, with flonase. Joining me now is former health take in the obama administration, also former governor of kansas, kathleen sebelius, and Pulitzer Prize winning columnist with the Washington PostGene Robinson. He has what he is call calling Donald Trumps leadership failures, going from the mask to the golf course. Since you have the piece, gene, i invite you to fire