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Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell
Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell
MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell March 2, 2017 03:00:00
So we havent had a chance to digest it. But the
Attorney General
in his
Confirmation Hearings
was very clear with a oneword answer when asked by a senator whether he had contact with the russians in any way, shape, or form. He said no, period. No condition, no modification. So obviously that turns out to not be accurate there is no reason to believe that
Jeff Sessions
in the
Confirmation Hearing
was trying to hide something. He may simply have forgotten. But it does mean two things. Number one, it adds to the incredible weight of evidence that the administration is not credible on these issues. Remember a couple of weeks ago when we heard that
Michael Flynn
was talking to the
Russian Ambassador
simply to wish him merry christmas. And of course that turns out not to be true. And
Michael Flynn
is no longer
National Security
adviser. So this white house has a very, very significant credibility problem. And its with respect to
Attorney General
sessions, what this means, and again, its too early to say that he perjured himself or that he meant to do this. But it very clearly indicates that he must now recuse himself just the way the former attorney general made is simply not true. This is of course how mike flynn went down, right . The
Deputy Attorney
general said mike flynn has said something to the
Vice President
about his phone calls with the
Russian Ambassador
, which is simply not true. That opens the possibility that russia might therefore seek to blackmail the
National Security
adviser. So you see people throughout the government, and leaks are a problematic thing. But theyre raising their hands and saying wait a minute, what were hearing out of the white house is simply not consistent with the facts that i know. Congressman at one of your town
Hall Meetings
during the break, someone who was there wrote this about one of your answers. As an answer to a question about demagoguery, he said he studied aught theirtarians, and it starts with the erosion of the judicial system and the media, as well adds the dispelling of false information. Then all it takes is a
Terrorist Attack
and he believes thats inevitable, followed by martial law. No one is linking your words here with donald trump. But my question to you, youre obviously speaking to a question as an educated man. Do your thoughts go there more often these days . Well, brian, i was responding to a lot of people in my town hall who made the very accurate observation that when a leader seeks to cloud the truth, when a leader seeks to make disorient you about what is true and what is not true, when a leader seeks to damage the institutions and the civic associations of a country, the media, the judiciary, i mean this goes back to de tocqueville. That is the way that that leader erodes democracy and becomes autocratic. I was also trying to dispel what i heard in town
Hall Meetings
, which were all hearing in town
Hall Meetings
, that this administration is fascist and theyre inevitably going to wind up being authoritarian. And my point was simply watch for those signs. Lets just stop the inflammatory language. But lets be sensitive to the fact that a lot of what is happening here, and let me offer this as a thought. What do the cia, the media and the fbi all have in common . These are people these are institutions who imperfect as though they may be, their essential mission is to get at the truth. And of course the
Trump Administration
has gone to war with all of those institutions whose essential mission is to get at the truth. And we as americans, republicans and democrats should just be very, very concerned about that, and very careful about what happens in the future. For example, if there is some sort of terrorist event, or if there is belligerence abroad that creates the atmosphere for this administration to take additional steps to concentrate power or additional steps that might be considered autocratic. Congressman jim himes,
Fourth Termer
from the district of connecticut and democrat on the telligence committee. Thank you, congressman, very much for joining us tonight. Thank you, brian. I appreciate it. Over to andrea mitchell. You have some of the response tonight, the pushback from the
Trump Administration
on these stories weve been talking about. Especially on the sessions story. Now specifically on that, a spokeswoman for
Attorney General
sessions said there was absolutely nothing misleading about his answer. Last year the senator had over 25 conversations with foreign ambassadors as a
Senior Member
of the
Armed Services
committee. She lists the country. Then she says he was asked during the hearing about communications between russia and the
Trump Campaign
. Not about meetings he took as a senator and a member of the
Armed Services
committee. However, at the same time, adam schiff, who you know is the top democrat on house intelligence says if the reports are accurate that
Attorney General
sessions, a prominent surrogate for donald trump, met with ambassador kislyak during the campaign and failed to disclose that fact during his confirmation, its essential he recuse himself. This is not even a close call. It is a must. So things are moving apace. Michael mcfaul, you served a mittedly the last democratic president as ambassador to russia. Having heard, taken in our conversation tonight and sampled the news breaking on this front, how would you recommend with your knowledge of washington as it is, how would you recommend this get pulled apart and looked at and investigated . Whats the vehicle to your mind . I believe it has to be a bipartisan independent commission, not unlike what we had after september 11th. I think its good news that the
House Intelligence Committee
has decide move forward. And i saw the parameters they put out. Thats a good sign. But at the end of the day, having it outside of partisan circles, that it can be investigated and really dig down. You know, as i read all these stories, its fantastic stories that really people are doing incredible work to get more and more news to us all. But its also unnamed sources. Its all people deep in the intelligence services. And we need those people to go from being leakers to witnesses. We need to know the truth. Well need to know the name for instance, of who met with whom in europe. I know, you know, that was tell me a lot if i knew the names, let alone the content of those conversations. And another piece of this, lots of
Senior Obama Administration
officials, some of whom are my
Close Friends
know a lot about this story. An independent investigation would give them the opportunity, the commission would give them the opportunity to also investigate and question those people about what they know and what they dont know. Former ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you very much for becoming for being on our broadcast, being part of this conversation tonight, as always. Chris matthews, you were talking about sourcing. The ambassador raised the same thing. These
Anonymous Sources
can only last so long. Yeah, and i think its always fascinating to try to figure out whose giving us the information. And i was taken with this, because it jumps out. The
Attorney Generals Office
is basically the
Justice Department
s heavily laden with civil servants, of course. But they wouldnt know about his contacts prior to becoming
Attorney General
. The people that would know and would actually offer this up to a report worry be people who had come to the
Justice Department
with him. And thats extraordinary. And were hearing a lot more about political appointees as sources. Andrea knows more about this. But political sources, political appointees ratting out, if you want to put it in this vernacular, their own people is pretty extraordinary at this point early in the administration. Im just going to were going to point out that wherever kislyak went, he was being listened to by our
Counter Intelligence
officials from the fbi. Right. And so those people would know whom he met with. And that would be another source of information. At the fbi. For that do you this attribution to
Justice Department
officials would cover fbi, or would it be that misleading on purpose . I think it would be an accurate description. 80 would be accurate, of course, but it would be sleading e idea is
Enforcement Officials
and
Counter Intelligence
officials are something that would give you little indication, i would think . Unless the people were nervous. This sort of puts it back to his people. I do think this whole question of trying to find, and this is something the
American Government
hasnt figured out yet. How do you find within a government that has been elected and appointed through a
Confirmation Process
someone extraneous to that who is some sort of arc angle figure that is going to come in and find justice in a better way than somebody who is part of the political process . And weve gone to these extremes, archie cox and people like that and trying to find people, lawrence walsh. Inevitably you find out later they do have political connections. Archie cox was the top
Speech Writing Manager
of the whole kennedy campaign. You know, you find out these people are connected politically. Its not one person, if i could. I was the
Executive Director
of the commission on the prevention of wmd proliferation and terrorism. A horrible long name. But it australia a child of the 9 11 commission to look at wmd and terrorism and how we could prevent terrorists from getting wmd. You need a bipartisan commission, republicans and democrats selected by the leadership of the house and the senate to do the work. Because, honestly, even the senate, the
Intelligence Committee
, the select
Intelligence Committee
for 9 11, even they were politicized. And number one, they
Couldnt Share Everything
for intelligence reasons. But number two, they were because of their positions constrained. And the president could always say to the people in his party, why are you guys doing that . If you have a truly independent commission, then paul ryan cant get those phone calls in the middle of the night from
President Trump
saying why are you letting those investigators say that or do that. He can say thats an independent commission. The 9 11 commission is the model. Tremendous burden on any one person. All right. A pause in our conversation. When we come back, were going to concentrate more on the trump business tie, specifically what we know about them. When our conversation continues. This is the story of
Green Mountain
coffee and fair trade, to in the time it takes to brew your cup. Lets take a trip to la plata, colombia. This is boris calvo. Thats pepe. Boris doesnt just grow good coffee, boris grows mindblowing coffee. And because we pay him a fair price, he improves his farm to grow even
Better Coffee
and invest in his community, which makes his neighbor, gustavo, happy. Thats blanca. Yup, pepe and blanca got together. Things happen. All this for a smoother tasting cup of coffee. Green mountain coffee. Packed with goodness. Do you know how your you might be surprised. Stimulant laxatives make your body go by forcefully stimulating the nerves in your colon. Miralax is different. It works with the water in your body to hydrate and soften, unblocking your system naturally. Miralax. With not food, become food . Thankfully at panera, 100 of our food is 100 clean. No artificial preservatives, sweeteners, flavors, or colors. Panera. Food as it should be. If youre gonna make an entrance. [sfx car driving upon the water] the markets change. At t. Rowe price. Our disciplined approach remains. Global markets may be uncertain. But you can feel confident in our
Investment Experience
around the world. Call us or your advisor. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Find fast relief behind the counter allergies with
Nasal Congestion
. With claritind. [ upbeat music ] strut past that aisle for the
Allergy Relief
that starts working in as little as 30 minutes and contains the best oral decongestant. Live claritin clear, with claritind. I do have a relationship. And i can tell you that hes very interested in what were doing here today. Ive never spoken to him. I dont know anything about him other than he will respect me. I with us in moscow a couple months ago. You know, i own the
Miss Universe
pageant. They treated me so great. Putin even sent me a president. Beautifupresent with a beautiful note. I got to know him very well. We were on 60 minutes. We did 60 minutes together. By the way, not together, together. Meaning he was probably shot in moscow and i was shot in new york. I spoke directly and indirectly with
President Putin
who could not have been nicer. I dont know putin. I never met putin. This is not my best friend. Just some of the questions and answers over the last few years. Two weeks ago the
New York Times
reported there are four people,
Trump Associates
who the fbi is closely examined over potential contacts with russian intelligence officials during the campaign season. All four men have strongly denied improper contact with russian officials. Although they arent telling all of them the same story. Tonight our own chris hayes introduces us to those four, starting with former
Trump Campaign
adviser roger stone. Im wondering how you would characterize your relationship to the president . A friend. A friend of trump, fot. Trump associate one, roger stone. Longtime gop strategist and selfdescribed dirty trickster with a tattoo of
Richard Nixon
on his back and a history of inflammatory and bigoted statements. Roger stone is a close ally of conspiracy theorist alex jones and helped arrange trumps 2015 appearance on jones show. Well, roger is a good guy. He is a patriot. And believes strongly in that strong nation, a lot of the things that i believe in. Reporter stone left
Trumps Campaign
last august. The
Campaign Says
he was fired. He says he wasnt. Though he remains an informal adviser. After he was named as an fbi target by the times, he insisted to me he has absolutely nothing to do with russia. I have had no contacts from russians or intermediaries for russians. I have no russian clients, no russian communications. Its all a complete sham investigation. Reporter trump associate two, carter page. Page spent three years in russia working as an
Investment Banker
for merrill lynch. Thats him speaking at a
Business School
in moscow last july. A few months before that speech, trump told the
Washington Post
that page was part of his
Foreign Policy
team. We heard you might be announcing your
Foreign Policy
Advisory Team
soon. Do you want i could give you some of the names . Carter page, ph. D. Reporter now, however, the white house denies that page had a role in the campaign. Carter page is an individual who the
President Elect
does not know and was put on notice months ago by the campaign. Reporter page, who maintains he was part of trumps
Foreign Policy
Team Last Week
denied
Covert Communications
with russia, saying claims to the contrary were planted by the president s enemy. Yes, i know a lot of people. But i know a lot of people in china, in africa, in middle east. So you are completely innocent as not charged . This is a complete smear campaign. We cannot make russia an enemy. Reporter trump associate three,
Michael Flynn
. The now former
National Security
adviser resigned last month after revelations he had lied to the
Vice President
about his conversations with the
Russian Ambassador
to the
United States
. Michael flynn, general flynn is a wonderful man. Reporter while he admits discussing sanctions with the
Attorney General<\/a> in his
Confirmation Hearings<\/a> was very clear with a oneword answer when asked by a senator whether he had contact with the russians in any way, shape, or form. He said no, period. No condition, no modification. So obviously that turns out to not be accurate there is no reason to believe that
Jeff Sessions<\/a> in the
Confirmation Hearing<\/a> was trying to hide something. He may simply have forgotten. But it does mean two things. Number one, it adds to the incredible weight of evidence that the administration is not credible on these issues. Remember a couple of weeks ago when we heard that
Michael Flynn<\/a> was talking to the
Russian Ambassador<\/a> simply to wish him merry christmas. And of course that turns out not to be true. And
Michael Flynn<\/a> is no longer
National Security<\/a> adviser. So this white house has a very, very significant credibility problem. And its with respect to
Attorney General<\/a> sessions, what this means, and again, its too early to say that he perjured himself or that he meant to do this. But it very clearly indicates that he must now recuse himself just the way the former attorney\rgeneral made is simply not true. This is of course how mike flynn went down, right . The
Deputy Attorney<\/a> general said mike flynn has said something to the
Vice President<\/a> about his phone calls with the
Russian Ambassador<\/a>, which is simply not true. That opens the possibility that russia might therefore seek to blackmail the
National Security<\/a> adviser. So you see people throughout the government, and leaks are a problematic thing. But theyre raising their hands and saying wait a minute, what were hearing out of the white house is simply not consistent with the facts that i know. Congressman at one of your town
Hall Meetings<\/a> during the break, someone who was there wrote this about one of your answers. As an answer to a question about demagoguery, he said he studied aught theirtarians, and it starts with the erosion of the judicial system and the media, as well adds the dispelling of false information. Then all it takes is a
Terrorist Attack<\/a> and he believes thats inevitable, followed by martial law. No one is linking your words\rhere with donald trump. But my question to you, youre obviously speaking to a question as an educated man. Do your thoughts go there more often these days . Well, brian, i was responding to a lot of people in my town hall who made the very accurate observation that when a leader seeks to cloud the truth, when a leader seeks to make disorient you about what is true and what is not true, when a leader seeks to damage the institutions and the civic associations of a country, the media, the judiciary, i mean this goes back to de tocqueville. That is the way that that leader erodes democracy and becomes autocratic. I was also trying to dispel what i heard in town
Hall Meetings<\/a>, which were all hearing in town
Hall Meetings<\/a>, that this administration is fascist and theyre inevitably going to wind up being authoritarian. And my point was simply watch for those signs. Lets just stop the inflammatory language. But lets be sensitive to the fact that a lot of what is happening here, and let me offer\rthis as a thought. What do the cia, the media and the fbi all have in common . These are people these are institutions who imperfect as though they may be, their essential mission is to get at the truth. And of course the
Trump Administration<\/a> has gone to war with all of those institutions whose essential mission is to get at the truth. And we as americans, republicans and democrats should just be very, very concerned about that, and very careful about what happens in the future. For example, if there is some sort of terrorist event, or if there is belligerence abroad that creates the atmosphere for this administration to take additional steps to concentrate power or additional steps that might be considered autocratic. Congressman jim himes,
Fourth Termer<\/a> from the district of connecticut and democrat on the telligence committee. Thank you, congressman, very much for joining us tonight. Thank you, brian. I appreciate it. Over to andrea mitchell. You have some of the response tonight, the pushback from the
Trump Administration<\/a> on these stories weve been talking\rabout. Especially on the sessions story. Now specifically on that, a spokeswoman for
Attorney General<\/a> sessions said there was absolutely nothing misleading about his answer. Last year the senator had over 25 conversations with foreign ambassadors as a
Senior Member<\/a> of the
Armed Services<\/a> committee. She lists the country. Then she says he was asked during the hearing about communications between russia and the
Trump Campaign<\/a>. Not about meetings he took as a senator and a member of the
Armed Services<\/a> committee. However, at the same time, adam schiff, who you know is the top democrat on house intelligence says if the reports are accurate that
Attorney General<\/a> sessions, a prominent surrogate for donald trump, met with ambassador kislyak during the campaign and failed to disclose that fact during his confirmation, its essential he recuse himself. This is not even a close call. It is a must. So things are moving apace. Michael mcfaul, you served a mittedly the last democratic\rpresident as ambassador to russia. Having heard, taken in our conversation tonight and sampled the news breaking on this front, how would you recommend with your knowledge of washington as it is, how would you recommend this get pulled apart and looked at and investigated . Whats the vehicle to your mind . I believe it has to be a bipartisan independent commission, not unlike what we had after september 11th. I think its good news that the
House Intelligence Committee<\/a> has decide move forward. And i saw the parameters they put out. Thats a good sign. But at the end of the day, having it outside of partisan circles, that it can be investigated and really dig down. You know, as i read all these stories, its fantastic stories that really people are doing incredible work to get more and more news to us all. But its also unnamed sources. Its all people deep in the intelligence services. And we need those people to go\rfrom being leakers to witnesses. We need to know the truth. Well need to know the name for instance, of who met with whom in europe. I know, you know, that was tell me a lot if i knew the names, let alone the content of those conversations. And another piece of this, lots of
Senior Obama Administration<\/a> officials, some of whom are my
Close Friends<\/a> know a lot about this story. An independent investigation would give them the opportunity, the commission would give them the opportunity to also investigate and question those people about what they know and what they dont know. Former ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you very much for becoming for being on our broadcast, being part of this conversation tonight, as always. Chris matthews, you were talking about sourcing. The ambassador raised the same thing. These
Anonymous Sources<\/a> can only last so long. Yeah, and i think its always fascinating to try to figure out whose giving us the information. And i was taken with this, because it jumps out. The
Attorney Generals Office<\/a> is basically the
Justice Department<\/a>s heavily laden with civil servants, of course. But they wouldnt know about his contacts prior to becoming
Attorney General<\/a>. The people that would know and would actually offer this up to a report worry be people who had come to the
Justice Department<\/a> with him. And thats extraordinary. And were hearing a lot more about political appointees as sources. Andrea knows more about this. But political sources, political appointees ratting out, if you want to put it in this vernacular, their own people is pretty extraordinary at this point early in the administration. Im just going to were going to point out that wherever kislyak went, he was being listened to by our
Counter Intelligence<\/a> officials from the fbi. Right. And so those people would know whom he met with. And that would be another source of information. At the fbi. For that do you this attribution to
Justice Department<\/a> officials would cover\rfbi, or would it be that misleading on purpose . I think it would be an accurate description. 80 would be accurate, of course, but it would be sleading e idea is
Enforcement Officials<\/a> and
Counter Intelligence<\/a> officials are something that would give you little indication, i would think . Unless the people were nervous. This sort of puts it back to his people. I do think this whole question of trying to find, and this is something the
American Government<\/a> hasnt figured out yet. How do you find within a government that has been elected and appointed through a
Confirmation Process<\/a> someone extraneous to that who is some sort of arc angle figure that is going to come in and find justice in a better way than somebody who is part of the political process . And weve gone to these extremes, archie cox and people like that and trying to find people, lawrence walsh. Inevitably you find out later they do have political connections. Archie cox was the top
Speech Writing Manager<\/a> of the whole kennedy campaign. You know, you find out these people are connected politically. Its not one person, if i could. I was the
Executive Director<\/a> of the commission on the prevention of wmd proliferation and terrorism. A horrible long name. But it australia a child of the 9 11 commission to look at wmd and terrorism and how we could prevent terrorists from getting wmd. You need a bipartisan commission, republicans and democrats selected by the leadership of the house and the senate to do the work. Because, honestly, even the senate, the
Intelligence Committee<\/a>, the select
Intelligence Committee<\/a> for 9 11, even they were politicized. And number one, they
Couldnt Share Everything<\/a> for intelligence reasons. But number two, they were because of their positions constrained. And the president could always say to the people in his party, why are you guys doing that . If you have a truly independent commission, then paul ryan cant get those phone calls in the middle of the night from
President Trump<\/a> saying why are you letting those investigators say that or do that. He can say thats an independent commission. The 9 11 commission is the model. Tremendous burden on any one person. All right. A pause in our conversation. When we come back, were going to concentrate more on the trump business tie, specifically what we know about them. When our conversation continues. This is the story of
Green Mountain<\/a> coffee and fair trade, to in the time it takes to brew your cup. Lets take a trip to la plata, colombia. This is boris calvo. Thats pepe. Boris doesnt just grow good coffee, boris grows mindblowing coffee. And because we pay him a fair price, he improves his farm to grow even
Better Coffee<\/a> and invest in his community, which makes his neighbor, gustavo, happy. Thats blanca. Yup, pepe and blanca got together. Things happen. All this for a smoother tasting cup of coffee. Green mountain coffee. Packed with goodness. Do you know how your you might be surprised. Stimulant laxatives make your body go by forcefully stimulating the nerves in your colon. Miralax is different. It works with the water in your body to hydrate and soften, unblocking your system naturally. Miralax. With not food, become food . Thankfully at panera, 100 of our food is 100 clean. No artificial preservatives, sweeteners, flavors, or colors. Panera. Food as it should be. If youre gonna make an entrance. [sfx car driving upon the water] the markets change. At t. Rowe price. Our disciplined approach remains. Global markets may be uncertain. But you can feel confident in our
Investment Experience<\/a> around the world. Call us or your advisor. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Find fast relief behind the counter allergies with
Nasal Congestion<\/a> . With claritind. [ upbeat music ] strut past that aisle for the
Allergy Relief<\/a> that starts working in as little as 30 minutes and contains the best oral decongestant. Live claritin clear, with claritind. I do have a relationship. And i can tell you that hes very interested in what were doing here today. Ive never spoken to him. I dont know anything about him other than he will respect me. I with us in moscow a couple months ago. You know, i own the
Miss Universe<\/a> pageant. They treated me so great. Putin even sent me a president. Beautifupresent with a beautiful note. I got to know him very well. We were on 60 minutes. We did 60 minutes together. By the way, not together, together. Meaning he was probably shot in moscow and i was shot in new york. I spoke directly and indirectly with
President Putin<\/a> who could not have been nicer. I dont know putin. I never met putin. This is not my best friend. Just some of the questions and answers over the last few years. Two weeks ago the
New York Times<\/a> reported there are four people,
Trump Associates<\/a> who the fbi is closely examined over potential contacts with russian\rintelligence officials during the campaign season. All four men have strongly denied improper contact with russian officials. Although they arent telling all of them the same story. Tonight our own chris hayes introduces us to those four, starting with former
Trump Campaign<\/a> adviser roger stone. Im wondering how you would characterize your relationship to the president . A friend. A friend of trump, fot. Trump associate one, roger stone. Longtime gop strategist and selfdescribed dirty trickster with a tattoo of
Richard Nixon<\/a> on his back and a history of inflammatory and bigoted statements. Roger stone is a close ally of conspiracy theorist alex jones and helped arrange trumps 2015 appearance on jones show. Well, roger is a good guy. He is a patriot. And believes strongly in that strong nation, a lot of the things that i believe in. Reporter stone left
Trumps Campaign<\/a> last august. The
Campaign Says<\/a> he was fired. He says he wasnt. Though he remains an informal adviser. After he was named as an fbi target by the times, he insisted to me he has absolutely nothing to do with russia. I have had no contacts from russians or intermediaries for russians. I have no russian clients, no russian communications. Its all a complete sham investigation. Reporter trump associate two, carter page. Page spent three years in russia working as an
Investment Banker<\/a> for merrill lynch. Thats him speaking at a
Business School<\/a> in moscow last july. A few months before that speech, trump told the
Washington Post<\/a> that page was part of his
Foreign Policy<\/a> team. We heard you might be announcing your
Foreign Policy<\/a>
Advisory Team<\/a> soon. Do you want i could give you some of the names . Carter page, ph. D. Reporter now, however, the white house denies that page had a role in the campaign. Carter page is an individual who the
President Elect<\/a> does not know and was put on notice months ago by the campaign. Reporter page, who maintains he was part of trumps
Foreign Policy<\/a>
Team Last Week<\/a> denied
Covert Communications<\/a> with russia, saying claims to the contrary were planted by the president s enemy. Yes, i know a lot of people. But i know a lot of people in china, in africa, in middle east. So you are completely innocent as not charged . This is a complete smear campaign. We cannot make russia an enemy. Reporter trump associate three,
Michael Flynn<\/a>. The now former
National Security<\/a> adviser resigned last month after revelations he had lied to the
Vice President<\/a> about his conversations with the
Russian Ambassador<\/a> to the
United States<\/a>. Michael flynn, general flynn is a wonderful man. Reporter while he admits discussing sanctions with the
Russian Ambassador<\/a> during the transition, flynn, like the others denies speaking to russian intelligence during the\rcampaign. Though he was reportedly paid 40,000 for a
Speech In Moscow<\/a> in 2015 that included a dinner with
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. In honor of the
Russian State Sponsored<\/a> tv network rt, where he has made numerous appearances. Im not working for any clients right now other than mr. Trump. Trump associate four, paul manafort. His former
Campaign Manager<\/a> who worked as a consultant for russianaligned former ukrainian president
Victorian Kovacico<\/a> wi yanukovych. Manafort denies knowingly speaking to russian intelligence, but its not like these people wear badges that say im a russian intelligence officer. Paul manafort was replaced long before the election took place. Our friend chris hayes with that reporting to set up this next conversation. With us tonight
Pulitzer Prize<\/a> winning investigative journalist
David Kay Johnson<\/a> who has been delving into the trump\rcampaigns financial ties with russia. David, we keep saying this is highly unusual, this is unprecedented for a president at the sixweek mark to have this much interest and investigation. But how much broader in your mind should this go . Oh, i think we need to thoroughly and openly investigate donalds 30year involvement with russians and all the money he has received. To channel
Richard Nixon<\/a>, people have got to know if their president is compromised. And donald has received hundreds of millions of dollars from the
Russian Oligarchs<\/a>. He just appointed as his commerce secretary wilbur ross, who is the vicechairman of one of the biggest banks involved in laundering russian money. The other vicechairman was an appointee of
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. A disgraced german banker from
Deutsche Bank<\/a> right after the\rbank was fined 650 million for russian moneylaundering. All of that was laid out by jim henry in a report at my news service d. C. Report that well ahead of everybody elses reporting on this on television. And there is a more here that we havent look at. The
Icelandic Bank<\/a> scandal traces back. Trumps soho hotel into the
Icelandic Bank<\/a> zma ii iic scand . There is a lot hey, im sorry. There is a ring of bad weather along the east coast of the
United States<\/a>. This got to us last night as well. And between us and rochester, we have a band of bad weather so bad that it is interfering with our ability to talk to
David Cay Johnston<\/a> by satellite. We apologize for that. Well take another break and see if we can reestablish. At invisalign\u00ae, we use the most advanced
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Mother Nature<\/a> would be answered . A great deal. We would know where trump is getting money, where he has borrowed money, who he has paid interest to, who his partners are, who the 500 plus
Business Entities<\/a> he is involved in, what relationships they have. We need to see trumps returns back to the 1990s. The congress can do this under a 1920s law in private. And then we need public hearings about donalds 30 years of involvement with the russians. And there is no one to blame but the american people, correct, that we didnt demand of a candidate for president which what has become the modern political standard, and that is you release your tax returns. Absolutely. And here is the question to ask. Why are the republicans so eager to not know whats in the tax returns, as you saw with
Chairman Nunez<\/a> and others talking about these\rinvestigations . As i said before, you know, quoting nixon, people have got to know their president is not a crook. David cay johnston, thank you very much for bearing with us, especially with the bad weather right overhead. David, thank you. Thank you, brian. Weve been talking after all about donald trump and
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. Trump has praised
Vladimir Putin<\/a>, but nbcs chief
Foreign Correspondent<\/a>
Richard Engel<\/a> talked to a man who says putin is not worthy of that praise. He is with us again from moscow tonight. Richard . Reporter well, there is another way of looking at this entire situation, and it is coming up in the conversation that youve been having tonight with all the guests in that its all about the money. Great fortunes have been made in this country, particularly by a small group of individuals around president
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. And they have proven time and time again they will g to
Great Lengths<\/a> to protect that money. Communism fell hard in russia. And since it did, business here has been profitable, glamorous, and at times deadly. Bill brouter from chicago knows that well. He made and lost a lot of money in russia and is openly accusing the russian government of crimes ranging from robbery to murder. They have the resource of a
Mafia Organization<\/a> with the resources of one of the most powerful countries in the world. Reporter to understand how and why what he calls the mafia state was born, he says you have to go back to the dying days of the soviet union when everything in russia was suddenly for sale and at a bargain. He moved to moscow and started buying. Eventually i went from nothing to running the largest
Investment Fund<\/a> in the country with 4. 5 billion invested in their stock market. Reporter but the age of grab all you can and carry couldnt last forever. It ended when a former secret agent,
Vladimir Putin<\/a> was appointed president. Brouder thought he was the reformer who would save russia from corruption. But pretty soon he says he realized that putin was simply building a power base by enriching loyal oligarchs while crushing others. He was selectively picking off his enemies. Reporter and eventually brouders name was add dodd the list. In 2005 he landed at a
Moscow Airport<\/a> and discovered he wasnt welcome in
Putins Russia<\/a> anymore. They put me on a plane, deport me back to london and declare me a threat to
National Security<\/a>. Reporter did they tell you why . No. Reporter why do you think . Because i expose corruption. Reporter he says his company was soon picked apart. I went out and hired the smartest lawyer i could find, a young man named sergei to help me investigate. Reporter but when the young lawyer started asking too many questions, he was arrested. They put him in cells with no heat, no window panes in december in moscow. So he nearly froze to death. They chained him to a bed and eight riot guards with
Rubber Batons<\/a> beat him to death. Reporter his horrible death struck a chord in washington, especially among russia hawks like senator john mccain who helped pass the magnitsky act,
Sanctioning Russians<\/a> who were involved in or profited from the lawyers death. He showed us neighborhoods where he says
Russian Oligarchs<\/a> keep their money in high end properties. Its bricks and mortar place where bad guys keep their money. Reporter now he hopes these socalled
Safe Deposit Homes<\/a> can be seized. Brouder spends much of his time and money lobbying for sanctions to be placed on russian businesses. He believes the russians will kill to protect their corrupt businesses. Do you have any reason to believe that you could be targeted . Yeah, ive received numerous threats. They do poisoning. They do car crashes. They do fake suicides. What they like to do is kill\rpeople and have it be plausibly deniable that there was a killing. Reporter russian investigations have concluded that the lawyer magnitsky was not murdered. And
President Putin<\/a> said that one would think that no one died in american prisons. Brian . Of course there is a dichotomy here. The audience in this country and how we view that story you just aired and the audience where you are. Where are the russian people on this topic . Well, the russiansnow that there is a small circle of oligarchs who are very powerful, who run a lot of businesses, have influence in putin. And there is a different way of looking at this state. If you talk to critics in russia and abroad, they will say you cant think of russia as a normal state, that it is a state that is designed to make money and to protect those fortunes,\rthat it is a state that consumes a kleptocracy has it has been called that also has a
Foreign Policy<\/a>. Now that is mixed in with national interests. That is mixed in with putins ambitions as well. So i think russians are fairly ambivalent or fairly confused about how to see their
Foreign Policy<\/a>. They know there is a powerful group of oligarchs willing to go to great means. But they dont know exactly where the oligarchs interests end and where this idea that putin wants to expand greater russia begins. A lot of history there. Wish we had time to delve into it. Some of it is in not trying to sell magazines, but the current remnick hart in the new yorker. Richard engel, thank you as a always. We also asked
Marcia Guesson<\/a> to be part of the conversation. She is the author of several books on russia, including the man without a face the unlikely rise of
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. Masha, it was your article in the
New York Times<\/a> that shook some of us and got our attention. The part that really got my attention was the roots of fascism, the things that half to happen, the argument that is made and made again and again and disseminated that is the kind of predicate. Can you go into that a little bit . So one thing that
Vladimir Putin<\/a> and donald trump share outside of any conspiracies that may or may not exist is right out there in the open, and thats their attitude toward government, toward democracy and toward the way the countries are constituted. One thing that putin has traffick in harkens back to the 1920s and 30s, and thats the belief that the world is rotten, that everyone is acting in their craven selfinterests, that there is no such thing as right and wrong, there are only winners and losers. And thats very much what we hear trump saying. And, you know, when trump responded to fox
Interview Question<\/a> about
Vladimir Putin<\/a> being a killer by saying, you know, is this country so innocent . That was such an extraordinary expression of the kind of moral equivalence and the belief that the world is rotten that weve never seen a president of this country express. Let me talk about that or ask you about it in macro term, not a moral term. Its said what putin wants is a world order like we had before world war two, when the big powers, the colonial power, the french, the british, the portuguese, the italians attempting it and the russians and the german, big powers left other big pyres lone. You grab yours, ill grab mine. Well let a few new people in the block grab a couple like mussolini can grab some territory. Putin really wants that back again. He feels constrained because he is constrained. He would love to gobble up the\rbaltic states again, gobble up in terms of
Sphere Of Influence<\/a> ukraine. But he is constrained by the world order that puts a premium on little countries rights. Little countries have right in the
General Assembly<\/a> and the sense of right and wrong. That true . He wants to go back to preworld war ii rules of engagement, rules of power. I would disagree a little bit. I think he wants to go to a post world war ii world order. He wants russia to be one of the two great powers. And he wants russia to have the opportunity to expand. His basic instinct is not even so much to grab
Back Everything<\/a> that the soviet union has, although that would be a good start, but to be expansionist. He is an imperialist. What stands in his wanow . Well, what stands in his way now is the european union. Right. The new structures. The new structures. And the american commitment to nato. And she wants to see all that come apart . He wants to see it come apart. He wants to sit down with the\rnew american president and divvy up the world again. He has been quite explicit about that. He has offered he offered this to the obama administration. The bargain of basically helping cooperating on isis in exchange for being allowed to do what he wants to do in europe. Masha gessen, on behalf of chris matthews, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thats sobering stuff you deal with. And helping us in our conversation. Masha gessen. Thank you. After a break here, well be back with two experts on
National Security<\/a> and defense to talk about just what it is were watching going on here. Americas
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Alcohol Problem<\/a> may be more likely to misuse lyrica. With less pain, i can be more active. K ur dtor about lyrica. We are back. Weve been following these two
Breaking News Stories<\/a> from the newspaper world. One in the
New York Times<\/a>, one in the
Washington Post<\/a>. One about intelligence gathered,\rknown about in the late days of the obama administration, scattered about as not to be discovered or destroyed in the new days of the
Trump Administration<\/a>. The other about contacts by the now
Attorney General<\/a>
Jeff Sessions<\/a>, met with the russian envoy twice last year and counters he did not disclose, as the
Washington Post<\/a>. And chris you have some reaction to this. Right. Because for months now you and i have covered the interesting battle between
Elijah Cummings<\/a>,
Ranking Member<\/a> of the
Government Reform Committee<\/a> in the house and darrell issa who was chair all those months. They were duelling
It Idealogically<\/a> and a partisan way back and forth. Now theyre both on the same front. Darrell issa wants an investigation of the whole russian investigation. And tonight
Elijah Cummings<\/a> is calling for the resignation of the
Attorney General<\/a>. There is an interesting sort of watergate whiff to this that republicans are beginning to join with the democrats and calling for investigation, which is very interesting because if youre in a
Swing District<\/a>, which has become a
Swing District<\/a> for darrell issa, you want to be someone looking for truth. And i think thats always a safe position. Calling for an investigation is always the exciting way to say im out there for the people. I want you to have the answers. I want the answers. Who doesnt want us to have the answers . Thats a position that is much harder to take. Keeping secrets. So this is how its playing out politically tonight. We also have a full front of this waiting for our discussion, and that is
National Security<\/a>, the military. With us tonight msnbc
Military Analyst<\/a> tired fourstar u. S. Army general barry mccaffrey,
West Point Class Of<\/a> 64, combat vietnam, three
Purple Hearts<\/a> two, silver star, two dscs. He was inducted into the
Army Ranger Hall<\/a> of fame and served as drug czar in the clinton administration. Here with us in new york, msnbc terrorism analyst malcolm nance, 35year veteran of the trade, including naval intelligence,
Special Operations<\/a> and homeland security, and the author of a very timely new book called the plot to hack america how\rputins cyberspies and wikileaks tried to steal the 2016 election. Gentlemen, welcome to you both. We were talking to remnick earlier. We all go back to an era of a cold war with russia. We go back to things like missiles and
Aircraft Carriers<\/a> and the kind of base fear we grew up with. This is so different now. In a way, lower ticket, lower tech. For lack of a double authentication on google, foreign power can hack into the
American Election<\/a> and then some. So how have the tools of the battle changed . How much have they changed, barry . Let me start off by saying ive spent most of my adult life studying the russians. And its been a good bet as the soviet union came apart in and out of moscow, kiev, mostly arms control dealings, tremendous admiration for the russian\rpeople physics, math, ballet, literature, courageous military. Theyve turned into a
Criminal Oligarchy Run<\/a> by this fellow putin who is a very clever politician. They are a major threat to their neighbors and to u. S. Interests. They are dangerous. Theyre in syria. Theyve participated in a modest way in murdering a half million people. Crimea, theyre active inside ukraine. Theyre a threat to the baltic states. Theyre actively trying to break up nato, the cornerstone of u. S. National security. And so the whole question of
President Trump<\/a> and his relationship with them is unsettling and somewhat unexplicable. So general, is
It Part Nomenclature<\/a> . Do we bear some of the blame . Should we have been calling this a form of at least
Electronic Warfare<\/a> with another state . Well, i listen to mr. Remnick\ron that point there is no moral equivalence between the agency operating against these authoritarian dictatorships who are a threat to their neighbors. I dont see any moral equivalence between that and trying to destabilize
Western Europe<\/a> elections and u. S. Elections. So i wouldnt start off with saying so whats the difference . The president s statement weve got killers too you know is the most unamerican thing ive ever heard come out of the mouth of a president. Were not like the russians. So i think thats probably the wrong way to get into the question. Malcolm nance, same questions to you. Well, for the most part, i think that we need to understand what russia is
Doing Strategical<\/a> strategically. I mean, they are waging a war not just, you know, cyberwar or political warfare. Theyre waging a war to damage liberal democracy in its\rentire entirety. And what theyre doing is they have figured out using hybrid warfare. Thats this global perception management game. Which is actually didnt hack just the dnc. It hacked the psyche of the american people. In this election. But relatively low cost as weapons go. No cost as weapons go. And it st, you know, all you do is use the organs of the state which theyve done brilliantly, and now have allies within the
United States<\/a> government and put those allies into office. And by doing that, they now have an axis against democracy. Now they can go after france and germany and the netherlands. Where there happen to be elections coming up. Where there just happen to be elections. They are conducting hackings. They are conducting this global perception management war. Okay, allies. Fill that out. They all have allies in the u. S. Government. How do you know that . Do you know that . I think idealogically you can just tell by
President Trump<\/a>s\rstatements about thats essentially the getting t ing t dissolution of nato, upending 70 years of stability being an exceptional nation and being a leader in the global democracy movement. But now aligning himself with russia. Again, he cant insult he can insult everyone, but he cant insult
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. And to a certain extent its almost like a guy who is a gambler in debt who wont talk about his bookie. So something has to be done. That has to be established. It all has to be established. Which is why we need an investigation. A lot youve given us here. Absolutely. Its just a theory from the intelligence perspective. The president did defend nato last night. He did. Its really important. We should hold him to it. Let me ask barry mccaffrey. Barry, you fought author this country. Are you still struck by the kind of new language on putin, a president who to be fair has bent over backwards to give\r
Vladimir Putin<\/a> the benefit of the doubt in virtually every public utterance i can remember on the subject. Clearlyngaging the russians to include mr. Putin in an effort to try and reduce a threat to
Western Europe<\/a> to u. S. National interests is the correct thing to do. But let me also add, this is not all
Electronic Warfare<\/a> and
Covert Action<\/a> and little green men. Putin has rebuilt fairly
High Technology<\/a> forces and is using them actively against the ukraine is selfpropelled artillery, groundtoair missiles as we saw shooting down the dutch airliner. These are active threats to the baltic republics, the poles, they are scared. Not just of being on the internet and attacked, but
Russian Military<\/a> power. So, again, i see the russians as an active
National Security<\/a>\rthreat as a major threat to nato which has disarmed itself. The germans came apart. They had 12 divisions, a powerful conventional army in the center of europe. But its mostly gone. So putin punching way above his weight class is actually intimidating much of
Western Europe<\/a>. Electoral in der spiegel right now about the
German Military<\/a> along the same lines. Malcolm nance, same question. A lot of our guests tonight have separated these two topics. The fact that our election was hacked and the fact that alarmingly nice things are being said from the top of the government about
Vladimir Putin<\/a>. Do you mush them together . I believe that there is a connection. And its virtually no one in the
Intelligence Community<\/a> could not see this and see that there has to be an arc. There has to be something between point a and point b. Its one thing, as the general said, for you to want to reach out to your opponents. At one point russia was part of natos partnership for peace. We were coming almost allies to a certain extent. And then once
Vladimir Putin<\/a> consolidated his power, he broke that he has a vision, a vision of european global power playing. And he has a vision for the world, which involves you him, the russia having to have allies. So by, you know, bringing on, you know, his donald trump and giving him the compliments and working him, you have to understand, this was the spy master in chief of russia. Yeah. He ran
Human Intelligence Operations<\/a> in west germany. He knows how to manipulate people. Now he is a spymaster with
Atomic Weapons<\/a> and unlimited money. He can use his dominance to influence any weapon he wants and he has done it. Malcolm nance, our thanks. Barry mccaffrey, our thanks. Another breck for us. Our coverage continues. Someone that makes it easy\rto find what i want. Booking. Com gets it. They offer free cancellation, in case i decide to go from kidfriendly to kidfree. Now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins. Your vacation is very important. Thats why booking. Com makes finding the right hotel for the right price easy. Visit booking. Com now to find out why were booking. Yeah tknock out
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Committee Asking<\/a> those questions, saying he should recuse himself. But nancy pelosi now saying he should resign. This is based on two contacts with the russians that were heretofore not disclosed. And the fact that he was asked about it not only not disclosed, he was asked about it and said he had no contact with russians. Again two,
Newspaper Stories<\/a> have come out and kind of dominated our broadcast tonight. Which was all going to be on the topic of things russia any. Along the way, we have talked to a number of guests, all of them experts in their field. All of them among our very best correspondents and reporters, from
Richard Engel<\/a> in moscow here to new york. So our thanks to everyone for taking part in this. Obviously, a story that took on new urgency and new currency while we were in the midst of discussing it tonight. And as i said, straight ahead, we will air our regular broadcast for tonight of
The 11th Hour<\/a> dominated again by","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"https:\/\/vimarsana.com\/images\/vimarsana-bigimage.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240618T12:35:10+00:00"}