Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell

Vote. But 28. 28. Yeah. Mmm. I know. They can go down to 22 no votes. Weve got 26 in the whip count right now. Presumably people are going to get some brutal knocks on the door this evening. Theyve got 21 hours to try to make this happen. Its going to be a pretty intense time. We will be watching. Thanks, lawrence. Thanks, rachel. Well, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee has described a cloud of scandal over the white house. And today he chose to walk straight into that cloud himself. We have a member of the House Intelligence Committee with us to respond to what happened today. We have an expert panel tonight, a former nsa general counsel will join us. Former staffer of the House Intelligence Committee will join us. National security reporter will be here. We have all of the angles of this story covered today on this remarkable day in washington. It was a day like weve never seen before, of course, thanks to donald trump. And this time devon nunes. The Intelligence Community incidentally collected information about u. S. Citizens involved in the trump transition. Todays actions i think have really been a body blow to the credibility of the committee. Thinking is a true breakdown in the entire oversight process. It was done to give trump ammunition to cover his crazy tweets. Do you feel vindicated by chairman nunes . I somewhat do. I must tell you, i somewhat do. Did obama actually wiretap trump tower which we know didnt happen . No, no. Did was devin nunes standing on his tippytoes trying to hold an umbrella over the president during a hurricane. The reports that i did see did not have anything to do with russia. This should not be as political as it is. This is about russia attacking our elections. Its clear that this investigation is picking up steam. And this may be an attempt by the chairman and the white house to slam the brakes on it. Ive never seen a Committee Chairman come out on the press and pour gasoline all over himself and light himself on fire, which is basically what he did. This has been the most extraordinary week in devin nunes career, and its only wednesday. On monday, he chaired an historic hearing in the house of representatives that was devastating to the president of the United States. The fbi director and the director of the National Security agency told the House Intelligence Committee that the president lied when he tweeted that president obama had wiretapped trump tower and wiretapped donald trump. Devin nunes as the republican chairman of that committee did not offer one word of defense of the republican president s tweet. Not one word. No republican member of that committee defended the president. They almost all tried to change the subject to a completely unrelated matter. They expressed concern about leaks to the Washington Post that revealed that trump National Security adviser Michael Flynn had lied about his conversations with the Russian Ambassador for which flynn was then fired. Only, of course, when the Washington Post exposed that donald trump had known about those lies for two full weeks. That hearing went very, very badly for donald trump. Not a single republican defended him. They did more defending of Michael Flynn. And then today chairman nunes, apparently having obtained some new information about surveillance that incidentally picked up information about people working in the Trump Campaign, possibly even donald trump decided to walk that information straight into the place filled with people being investigated by the fbi for possible contacts with the russian government or russian agents during and after the president ial campaign. Devin nunes took that information straight to the white house and straight to president trump, who we discovered in devin nunes own hearing on monday is himself being investigated by the fbi for possible contacts during the campaign with russia or russian agents. No one in the congress, no one in washington had ever seen anything like what we saw today. The best run committees in the house and senate are led by democrats and republicans who share Important Information with each other cooperatively. The senior republican and the senior democrat do their best to keep each other aware of the committees business. The Intelligence Committees have a very special obligation to do that, because theyre not passing partisan legislative bills. In the Intelligence Committees, there is no such thing as partisan intelligence. Or there isnt sposed to be. It is both in the tradition and the practice of the Intelligence Committees that the chair of that committee share crucial new information with the Senior Member of the opposing party on that committee. They dont have to share wit the entire committee. In this case, just the top democrat adam schiff. Today adam schiff was stunned by what his chairman did. The chairman will need to decide whether he is the chairman of an independent investigation into conduct which includes allegations of potential coordination between the Trump Campaign and the russians or he is going to act as an surrogate of the white house. Because he cannot do both. And unfortunately, i think the actions of today throw great doubt into the ability of both the chairman and the committee to conduct the investigation the way it ought to be conducted. Republican senator john mccain was shocked by what chairman nunes did today, and said he now thinks the House Intelligence Committee is not capable of doing their job, and that a special committee should be appointed. What this is now really is a requirement for a select committee. I believe that there is a better relationship in the Intelligence Committee in the senate between senator warner and senator burr. But this just shows a tremendous chasm between the two Senior Members of the House Intelligence Committee. Republican senator Lindsey Graham said he could not understand why chairman nunes would rush down to the white house. Here is what chairman nunes said he told the president. This is information that was brought to me that i thought the president needed to know about incidental collection where the president himself and others in the Trump Transition Team were clearly put into intelligence reports that ended up at this white house and across a whole bunch of other agencies. The question everyone in washington is asking is why did he do it. Why did he do it . You just heard him say that the information he brought to the white house was already known in the white house. He meant the obama white house. But what made him think that none of that information was transferred to the Trump White House . And more importantly, what made him think it was his job to serve that information to the Trump White House . One of the answers, just one of the possible many answers, one of those answers is paul ryan. Donald trump is the second person that devin nunes gave that information to today. The first was paul ryan. His boss in the house of representatives. And paul ryan then told chairman nunes to bring it to the president. To completely bypass his committee, to completely ignore the tradition and practice of sharing that with the Ranking Member of his committee, adam schiff. Just run it right down to the white house. And so paul ryan left devin nunes wide open to accusations that he was running down to the white house to offer some political protection for the damage his committee did to the president on monday. And the white house immediately tried to use the information exactly that way. Do you feel vindicated by chairman nunes . I somewhat do. I must tell you, i somewhat do. I very much appreciated the fact that they found what they found. Here is the most important single reason that devin nunes did what he did today. He is a 43yearold man who grew up on a big family farm in california that has been in his family for generations. Went to community college, then got a bachelors degree in agriculture at California Polytechnic State University in san luis obispo. Worked his way into the good graces of the very powerful congressman representing his district, who was the republican chairman of the ways and means committee. Who then retired, leaving an opening for devin nunes to win his seat in the house of representatives where he has stayed faithfully close to the leadership of john boehner and now paul ryan, who made him the head of the Intelligence Committee because the supply of intelligence in the Republican House of representatives is so low that they do not have enough capable chairman to go around. And so devin nunes, with no military experience, with no experience working in the Intelligence Community. Devin nunes, the congressman from the overwhelmingly republican farming district 200 miles north of los angeles is in way, way over his head. Way over his head. Thats what he showed everyone today. Anyone in washington who didnt know that already, knows it now. If devin nunes was trying to help the president today, he did a terrible job of it because he is in way over his head. You cant help the president by making your investigation of Trump Campaign contacts with russia look rigged. In other words, you cant help the president in a situation like tby looki like youre trying to help the president. And the smart chairman and periencechairman would know that. Devin nunes hurt the president today by looking like the president s errand boy. And he hurt the integrity of the congressional investigative process. And he added to the image of chaos surrounding the president and the Congressional Republicans as they stumble toward a vote this week on their most important legislation so far, repeal of the Affordable Care act. And as they desperately try to change the subject from russian influence on donald trump, russian influence on Paul Manafort, russian influence on Michael Flynn, who worked as the trump worked in the Trump White House for three weeks, while they desperately try to change the image of donald trump being Vladimir Putins errand boy, devin nunes runs down to the white house and creates another scandal within the scandal. The picture of the chairman who was supposed to be investigating this case running down to the white house to help out in any way he can the people being investigated. Looking like Donald Trumps errand boy. And doing it because squeaky clean paul ryan told him to. Thats the image paul ryan has always wanted for himself, a squeaky clean politician who only cares about policy. But paul ryans in over his head this week too. He has never tried to manage the passage of major legislation as the speaker of the house before. And he is so far doing a terrible job of it with an open revolt among his own members who show no fear of him whatsoever. And in the midst of the chaos of that legislative procedure, paul ryan dispatched devon nunes down to the white house because paul ryan is in over his head too. He is the only speaker of the house in history who has had to deal with the president of his party, who he is working with every day being the subject of an fbi investigation. Paul ryan has a much worse job than the impossible job that john boehner had as speaker of the Republican House. Because paul ryan has donald trump in the white house. And john boehner had barack obama in the white house. And tonight paul ryan is in way over his head. Just like devin nunes, and just like donald trump. Joining us now, democratic congressman Eric Swalwell is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence. And congressman, i just have to ask you, how long did it take for the shock to wear off . Because the traditions of the way your committee operates as you know is a its a very strong bipartisan history of the operations of that committee. Lawrence, im still shocked. This committee for the past three years for me has been the most fulfilling thing ive done in congress. Because its a place you go to find bipartisanship, to make the most important decisions. And today our chairman betrayed the independence that our committee must show during one of the most trying times in american history. He should have shared this with the Intelligence Committee first. He never should have shared wit a president Whose Campaign is under federal criminal investigation. And now i think more than ever, the case has been made that we need an independent Bipartisan Commission to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. Are you at the point of actively wanting to give up on your committees ability to proceed . I actively want to find out how we were so vulnerable, how the russians were able to attack us, whether any u. S. Persons on the Trump Campaign were involved. And most importantly, how do we get out of this mess so this never happens again . Im very disappointed in our chairman. And i think we need to take this outside of congress to depoliticize it, declassify as much as possible, and debunk the countless myths out there that the president continues to perpetuate. You and devin nunes both represent california. You have more ways of running into him and doing business with him than just on the Intelligence Committee. What it is about him you think that allowed where he allowed himself to get drawn into this mess this way . What did he miss . You know the person. Why didnt the person you know turn to congressman schiff and make the right move . Im puzzled, lawrence. Because ive seen devin nunes be a leader on this committee. We passed a bipartisan cybersecurity bill. Well were able to pass an intelligence reauthorization act to make sure our Intelligence Services had everything they needed. And that was devin nunes on his best day. And were not all as good as our best day. But now what he has done today has put our investigation on life support. And today so far is his worst day. So we dont judge people on their best days. We dont judge them on their worst days. Im going to judge him on what he does tomorrow. Does he come to the committee at our hearing tomorrow and give us the evidence that he took over to the white house, apologize for what he has done, and show that this committee can do the work that the American People are counting on us to do. Has he acknowledged to any of the members of the committee that because he was a member of the Trump Transition Team, he needs to be extra careful and kind of extra aboveboard in his dealings with this material . Has he recognized his own vulnerability here as a member of the Trump Transition Team and what that means as he goes forward in this investigation . No. And there has always been an asterisk around his leadership because of his connections to the trump team. But he did agree with our Ranking Member to follow the evidence. We had an open hearing this week where our concerns about the trump russia ties personally, politically and financially converged with russias attack on our campaign were validated by the fbi director confirming investigation. But what he has done today, its really, really setting us back. And the future is in peril. So he has to divulge to us tomorrow at our 9 00 hearing just exactly what is going on. Congressman eric swwell, thank you very much for joining tonight. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you. Coming up, how could the chairman of the Intelligence Committee have taken that information and rushed it down to the white house . There is a lot more to talk about with experts who have worked on this subject. We have a former staffer from the House Intelligence Committee joining us, reporter from the New York Times and others. Well be right back. Preparing for surgery, use an over pronounced washing technique for dramatic effect. They also know you need to get your annual checkup. Now prepare for your checkup with one touch using the mycigna app, where you can find a doctor in your plans network to save money, manage your health and more. Need to be thorough. At crowne plaza we know Business Travel isnt just business. Theres this. a bit of this. Why not . Your hotel should make it easy to do all the things you do. Which is what we do. Crowne plaza. Were all business, mostly. Anyone ever have occasional y constipation,diarrhea, gas or bloating . She does. She does. Help defend against those digestive issues. Take House Intelligence Committee<\/a> has described a cloud of scandal over the white house. And today he chose to walk straight into that cloud himself. We have a member of the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> with us to respond to what happened today. We have an expert panel tonight, a former nsa general counsel will join us. Former staffer of the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> will join us. National security reporter will be here. We have all of the angles of this story covered today on this remarkable day in washington. It was a day like weve never seen before, of course, thanks to donald trump. And this time devon nunes. The Intelligence Community<\/a> incidentally collected information about u. S. Citizens involved in the trump transition. Todays actions i think have really been a body blow to the credibility of the committee. Thinking is a true breakdown in the entire oversight process. It was done to give trump ammunition to cover his crazy tweets. Do you feel vindicated by chairman nunes . I somewhat do. I must tell you, i somewhat do. Did obama actually wiretap trump tower which we know didnt happen . No, no. Did was devin nunes standing on his tippytoes trying to hold an umbrella over the president during a hurricane. The reports that i did see did not have anything to do with russia. This should not be as political as it is. This is about russia attacking our elections. Its clear that this investigation is picking up steam. And this may be an attempt by the chairman and the white house to slam the brakes on it. Ive never seen a Committee Chairman<\/a> come out on the press and pour gasoline all over himself and light himself on fire, which is basically what he did. This has been the most extraordinary week in devin nunes career, and its only wednesday. On monday, he chaired an historic hearing in the house of representatives that was devastating to the president of the United States<\/a>. The fbi director and the director of the National Security<\/a> agency told the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> that the president lied when he tweeted that president obama had wiretapped trump tower and wiretapped donald trump. Devin nunes as the republican chairman of that committee did not offer one word of defense of the republican president s tweet. Not one word. No republican member of that committee defended the president. They almost all tried to change the subject to a completely unrelated matter. They expressed concern about leaks to the Washington Post<\/a> that revealed that trump National Security<\/a> adviser Michael Flynn<\/a> had lied about his conversations with the Russian Ambassador<\/a> for which flynn was then fired. Only, of course, when the Washington Post<\/a> exposed that donald trump had known about those lies for two full weeks. That hearing went very, very badly for donald trump. Not a single republican defended him. They did more defending of Michael Flynn<\/a>. And then today chairman nunes, apparently having obtained some new information about surveillance that incidentally picked up information about people working in the Trump Campaign<\/a>, possibly even donald trump decided to walk that information straight into the place filled with people being investigated by the fbi for possible contacts with the russian government or russian agents during and after the president ial campaign. Devin nunes took that information straight to the white house and straight to president trump, who we discovered in devin nunes own hearing on monday is himself being investigated by the fbi for possible contacts during the campaign with russia or russian agents. No one in the congress, no one in washington had ever seen anything like what we saw today. The best run committees in the house and senate are led by democrats and republicans who share Important Information<\/a> with each other cooperatively. The senior republican and the senior democrat do their best to keep each other aware of the committees business. The Intelligence Committee<\/a>s have a very special obligation to do that, because theyre not passing partisan legislative bills. In the Intelligence Committee<\/a>s, there is no such thing as partisan intelligence. Or there isnt sposed to be. It is both in the tradition and the practice of the Intelligence Committee<\/a>s that the chair of that committee share crucial new information with the Senior Member<\/a> of the opposing party on that committee. They dont have to share wit the entire committee. In this case, just the top democrat adam schiff. Today adam schiff was stunned by what his chairman did. The chairman will need to decide whether he is the chairman of an independent investigation into conduct which includes allegations of potential coordination between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and the russians or he is going to act as an surrogate of the white house. Because he cannot do both. And unfortunately, i think the actions of today throw great doubt into the ability of both the chairman and the committee to conduct the investigation the way it ought to be conducted. Republican senator john mccain was shocked by what chairman nunes did today, and said he now thinks the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> is not capable of doing their job, and that a special committee should be appointed. What this is now really is a requirement for a select committee. I believe that there is a better relationship in the Intelligence Committee<\/a> in the senate between senator warner and senator burr. But this just shows a tremendous chasm between the two Senior Member<\/a>s of the House Intelligence Committee<\/a>. Republican senator Lindsey Graham<\/a> said he could not understand why chairman nunes would rush down to the white house. Here is what chairman nunes said he told the president. This is information that was brought to me that i thought the president needed to know about incidental collection where the president himself and others in the Trump Transition Team<\/a> were clearly put into intelligence reports that ended up at this white house and across a whole bunch of other agencies. The question everyone in washington is asking is why did he do it. Why did he do it . You just heard him say that the information he brought to the white house was already known in the white house. He meant the obama white house. But what made him think that none of that information was transferred to the Trump White House<\/a> . And more importantly, what made him think it was his job to serve that information to the Trump White House<\/a> . One of the answers, just one of the possible many answers, one of those answers is paul ryan. Donald trump is the second person that devin nunes gave that information to today. The first was paul ryan. His boss in the house of representatives. And paul ryan then told chairman nunes to bring it to the president. To completely bypass his committee, to completely ignore the tradition and practice of sharing that with the Ranking Member<\/a> of his committee, adam schiff. Just run it right down to the white house. And so paul ryan left devin nunes wide open to accusations that he was running down to the white house to offer some political protection for the damage his committee did to the president on monday. And the white house immediately tried to use the information exactly that way. Do you feel vindicated by chairman nunes . I somewhat do. I must tell you, i somewhat do. I very much appreciated the fact that they found what they found. Here is the most important single reason that devin nunes did what he did today. He is a 43yearold man who grew up on a big family farm in california that has been in his family for generations. Went to community college, then got a bachelors degree in agriculture at California Polytechnic State University<\/a> in san luis obispo. Worked his way into the good graces of the very powerful congressman representing his district, who was the republican chairman of the ways and means committee. Who then retired, leaving an opening for devin nunes to win his seat in the house of representatives where he has stayed faithfully close to the leadership of john boehner and now paul ryan, who made him the head of the Intelligence Committee<\/a> because the supply of intelligence in the Republican House<\/a> of representatives is so low that they do not have enough capable chairman to go around. And so devin nunes, with no military experience, with no experience working in the Intelligence Community<\/a>. Devin nunes, the congressman from the overwhelmingly republican farming district 200 miles north of los angeles is in way, way over his head. Way over his head. Thats what he showed everyone today. Anyone in washington who didnt know that already, knows it now. If devin nunes was trying to help the president today, he did a terrible job of it because he is in way over his head. You cant help the president by making your investigation of Trump Campaign<\/a> contacts with russia look rigged. In other words, you cant help the president in a situation like tby looki like youre trying to help the president. And the smart chairman and periencechairman would know that. Devin nunes hurt the president today by looking like the president s errand boy. And he hurt the integrity of the congressional investigative process. And he added to the image of chaos surrounding the president and the Congressional Republicans<\/a> as they stumble toward a vote this week on their most important legislation so far, repeal of the Affordable Care<\/a> act. And as they desperately try to change the subject from russian influence on donald trump, russian influence on Paul Manafort<\/a>, russian influence on Michael Flynn<\/a>, who worked as the trump worked in the Trump White House<\/a> for three weeks, while they desperately try to change the image of donald trump being Vladimir Putins<\/a> errand boy, devin nunes runs down to the white house and creates another scandal within the scandal. The picture of the chairman who was supposed to be investigating this case running down to the white house to help out in any way he can the people being investigated. Looking like Donald Trumps<\/a> errand boy. And doing it because squeaky clean paul ryan told him to. Thats the image paul ryan has always wanted for himself, a squeaky clean politician who only cares about policy. But paul ryans in over his head this week too. He has never tried to manage the passage of major legislation as the speaker of the house before. And he is so far doing a terrible job of it with an open revolt among his own members who show no fear of him whatsoever. And in the midst of the chaos of that legislative procedure, paul ryan dispatched devon nunes down to the white house because paul ryan is in over his head too. He is the only speaker of the house in history who has had to deal with the president of his party, who he is working with every day being the subject of an fbi investigation. Paul ryan has a much worse job than the impossible job that john boehner had as speaker of the Republican House<\/a>. Because paul ryan has donald trump in the white house. And john boehner had barack obama in the white house. And tonight paul ryan is in way over his head. Just like devin nunes, and just like donald trump. Joining us now, democratic congressman Eric Swalwell<\/a> is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee<\/a> on intelligence. And congressman, i just have to ask you, how long did it take for the shock to wear off . Because the traditions of the way your committee operates as you know is a its a very strong bipartisan history of the operations of that committee. Lawrence, im still shocked. This committee for the past three years for me has been the most fulfilling thing ive done in congress. Because its a place you go to find bipartisanship, to make the most important decisions. And today our chairman betrayed the independence that our committee must show during one of the most trying times in american history. He should have shared this with the Intelligence Committee<\/a> first. He never should have shared wit a president Whose Campaign<\/a> is under federal criminal investigation. And now i think more than ever, the case has been made that we need an independent Bipartisan Commission<\/a> to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. Are you at the point of actively wanting to give up on your committees ability to proceed . I actively want to find out how we were so vulnerable, how the russians were able to attack us, whether any u. S. Persons on the Trump Campaign<\/a> were involved. And most importantly, how do we get out of this mess so this never happens again . Im very disappointed in our chairman. And i think we need to take this outside of congress to depoliticize it, declassify as much as possible, and debunk the countless myths out there that the president continues to perpetuate. You and devin nunes both represent california. You have more ways of running into him and doing business with him than just on the Intelligence Committee<\/a>. What it is about him you think that allowed where he allowed himself to get drawn into this mess this way . What did he miss . You know the person. Why didnt the person you know turn to congressman schiff and make the right move . Im puzzled, lawrence. Because ive seen devin nunes be a leader on this committee. We passed a bipartisan cybersecurity bill. Well were able to pass an intelligence reauthorization act to make sure our Intelligence Services<\/a> had everything they needed. And that was devin nunes on his best day. And were not all as good as our best day. But now what he has done today has put our investigation on life support. And today so far is his worst day. So we dont judge people on their best days. We dont judge them on their worst days. Im going to judge him on what he does tomorrow. Does he come to the committee at our hearing tomorrow and give us the evidence that he took over to the white house, apologize for what he has done, and show that this committee can do the work that the American People<\/a> are counting on us to do. Has he acknowledged to any of the members of the committee that because he was a member of the Trump Transition Team<\/a>, he needs to be extra careful and kind of extra aboveboard in his dealings with this material . Has he recognized his own vulnerability here as a member of the Trump Transition Team<\/a> and what that means as he goes forward in this investigation . No. And there has always been an asterisk around his leadership because of his connections to the trump team. But he did agree with our Ranking Member<\/a> to follow the evidence. We had an open hearing this week where our concerns about the trump russia ties personally, politically and financially converged with russias attack on our campaign were validated by the fbi director confirming investigation. But what he has done today, its really, really setting us back. And the future is in peril. So he has to divulge to us tomorrow at our 9 00 hearing just exactly what is going on. Congressman eric swwell, thank you very much for joining tonight. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you. Coming up, how could the chairman of the Intelligence Committee<\/a> have taken that information and rushed it down to the white house . There is a lot more to talk about with experts who have worked on this subject. We have a former staffer from the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> joining us, reporter from the New York Times<\/a> and others. Well be right back. Preparing for surgery, use an over pronounced washing technique for dramatic effect. They also know you need to get your annual checkup. Now prepare for your checkup with one touch using the mycigna app, where you can find a doctor in your plans network to save money, manage your health and more. Need to be thorough. At crowne plaza we know Business Travel<\/a> isnt just business. Theres this. a bit of this. Why not . Your hotel should make it easy to do all the things you do. Which is what we do. Crowne plaza. Were all business, mostly. Anyone ever have occasional y constipation,diarrhea, gas or bloating . She does. She does. Help defend against those digestive issues. Take Phillips Colon Health<\/a> probiotic caps daily with three types of good bacteria. 400 likes . Wow try Phillips Colon Health<\/a>. Is information that was brought to me information that was brought to me. Who could legally bring him that information . That is one of the unknowns at the moment. Well ask three experts about that, including a former staff member of the committee, former general counsel to the nsa, and National Security<\/a> reporter for the New York Times<\/a>. Who could legally bring him that information . Thats next. Ok lets call his agent. Im coming over right now. The newly advanced gle can see in your blind spot. [ dinosaur roar ] onboard cameras and radar detect danger all around you. Driver assist systems pull you back into your lane if drifting. Bye chief. Bye bobby. And will even help you brake, if necessary. It makes driving less of a production. Lease the gle350 for 579 a month at your local mercedesbenz dealer. Mercedesbenz. The best or nothing. Dont let dust and allergens and lifes beautiful moments. Flonase allergy relief delivers more complete relief. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances that cause all your symptoms, including nasal congestion and itchy, watery eyes. Flonase is an allergy nasal spray that works even beyond the nose. So you can enjoy every beautiful moment to the fullest. Flonase. 61 changes everything. In the dozens of reports i was able to see, i was able to determine that it was it looks like it was legal collection, incidental collection, but then made itself into intelligence reports. So it has to deal with fisa. And there is multiple number of fisa warrants that are out there. But there is nothing criminal at all involved. Joining us now, rajesh day, former council to the National Security<\/a> agency, mika oyang, a former House Intelligence Committee<\/a> staffer. And a security reporter for the New York Times<\/a>. Raj, you were basically the nsas lawyer. You were one of the lawyers for the 9 11 commission. Who has the who could legally have brought this information to the chairman based on the descriptions you heard of the information from the chairman . Well, thank you, lawrence. As a legal matter, any of the agencies could bring the information forward. I think the two Big Questions<\/a> are why would it be brought forward simply to the chairman, as opposed to the chairman of the ranking, and who legally authorized what seemed to be public discussion of that information. That later category is a far more limited universe in individuals. Was it your practice at the nsa in a situation like this if you were bringing information like that, that you would specifically bring it to the chairman and the Ranking Member<\/a> . Yes, that is Standard Practice<\/a> at a minimum to bring it to both the ranking and the chairman, if not the entire committee. Mika, your experience of working on the committee, again, the same question. Who would legally, who would you expect to walk in the door with this kind of information . So there are two kinds of disclosures to the committee. One are the official channels that raj is talk about. They get bought to both chairman and ranking. But often you get whistleblowers. Folks who feel like the administration or their supervisors are not really listening to them. And they tend to come in on their own. Theyre protected by law, and they can bring disclosures to any member of congress. And that may be what we have here. And mieke, does that law protect anyone at any level in the intelligence bureaucracies to kind of walk in to the Chairmans Office<\/a> like that . It does. There is some question about whether or not those protections apply to contractors like s lid snow dan, but this is a really bad sign to whistleblowers across the government. If you have a trump issue and you bring it to devin nunes, he is going to bring to it trump. You see the people who have done this for a living are the most shocked by it, trying to convey that outside of the washington definition of shocked might not be easy for the country, where it probably seems to them like this 457s all the time. What has been the reaction in congress and in the Intelligence Committee<\/a> to what devin nunes did today with the information that he obtained . I mean, i think you see it in representative schiff and others with the democrats are simply saying this doesnt work. Running off to the white house before telling us about this, about this intelligence, it simply means this investigation is not going to be independent. We need an independent investigation. Thats been the reaction from the democrats. I guess even john mccain on the republicans side. Intelligence community, i got to tell you, i talked to a lot of people over there today. A lot of them were amazed at what is going on and are saying i want to take a pass on this one. What in the world is going on here where you have incidental collection being portrayed as surveillance where the president is tweeting things out. Its just a mess. Talk than difference, matthew, between incidental collection and surveillance, and how that seemed to get blurred today. So if the American Community<\/a> surveils any number of foreign officials and foreign leaders. And if any american is calling them up, or if two foreign people under surveillance are talk about american, youre going get caught up in that surveillance. Youre going to be incidentally collected on is how ill put it. Thats a far different thing than if somebody says we want to go after a specific person. Well want to wiretap president trump. Well go get a warrant and look at him. And thats sort of what the president suggested. Nunes said today that didnt happen. But the idea that its some how unlawful or appropriate to sweep people up in incidental collection series kind of strange. And it doesnt reflect how things actually work and what the law is. And, raj, based on the question of exactly who is who is in this material that nunes is concerned about and he thought the president should know about, he seems to hint today that he knew who it was. And then there were moments today where it sounded like he doesnt actually know who was picked up in this incidental collection. Is that clear yet . Its far from clear. And matt was exactly right in describing incidental collection. There are all sorts of rules. Generally, the names of people incidentally collected need to be bcked out. And they can only be revealed in intelligence circlesf there is information relating to a crime or if the name is necessary to understand the foreign intelligence. And i think one big question is which of those circumstances applies here if the names were in fact revealed in intelligence circumstance isles. Mieke, what do you expect to happen at the Committee Meeting<\/a> tomorrow . And what is the staff urging their members to try to achieve tomorrow in that hearing . So if i were staffing members in the hearing tomorrow, i would be urging them to get all the information that the chairman has. If he is willing to take to it the press, he should share wit every Single Member<\/a> of the committee. They have to be able to talk about it and see what the context is in which this information was collected, how was it disseminated. But i expect its going to be a very contentious hearing tomorrow. What is the future for the chairman on that committee, if this information is revealed . And it looks to members of this committee as though he wildly overreacted or he acted very inappropriately. Is there is there a way for a chairman to repair that . So chairman nunes serves at the pleasure of speaker ryan. Speaker ryan can replace him at any time if he becomes a problem. But you have to remember, chairman nunes was running the National Security<\/a> transition for the trump administration. So all the hiccups that we saw during transition, you can lay that at nunes door. And he is grading his own work as the chairman of the committee. I think he is in many ways very compromised as he goes forward and tries to figure out how to conduct oversight of the Intelligence Community<\/a>. Raj, who would have told the chairman that its okay to run down to the white house with this and then go out into the driveway and talk to the reporters about this . Its hard to imagine any intelligence professional or experienced staffer providing that advice. So honestly, that is a big open question. Matt, what happens next . You know, your guess is as good as mine. Im kind of curious to see if anybody is going to ask what if what mr. Nunes disclosed was classified. He has gone on about leakers and the illegality of disclosing classified information. And he got up today and talked about things that are still classified, as far as i understand. Well, were going learn a lot tomorrow morning. Rajesh de, mieke eoyang, and matthew rosenberg, thank you all for joining us tonight. Reports that trumps former Campaign Chairman<\/a> was paid millions by Vladimir Putins<\/a> confidante. Thats just that news just broke today. vo love. I got it. 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Tell your doctor if youve ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. Taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. Common side effects of harvoni include tiredness, headache and weakness. Ready to let go of hep c . Ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. Paul manafort has done an amazing job. He is here some place. Where is paul . Paul manafort. Paul manafort has done a fantastic job. And all of pauls people. Paul brought on staff. And we really do, we have a great staff of talented people. That was the day after the republican convention, which was run by Paul Manafort<\/a>, just as the Trump Campaign<\/a> was being run by Paul Manafort<\/a> at that time. Today the Associated Press<\/a> reports before signing up with donald trump, former Campaign Manager<\/a> Paul Manafort<\/a> secretly worked for a russian billionaire with a plan to greatly benefit the putin government. Manafort proposed in a confidential strategy plan, as early as june 2005 that he would influence politics, business dealings, and News Coverage<\/a> inside the United States<\/a>. Manafort pitched the plans to aluminum magnate oleg deripaska, a close putin ally with whom manafort eventually signed a 10 million annual contract beginning in 2006. Paul manafort has confirmed that he did work for that russian billionaire almost a decade ago. And today he told nbc news i did not work for the russian government. Once again, smear a innuendo are being used to paint a false picture. Of course Paul Manafort<\/a> is painting a false picture of the ap report, which does not say that he worked directly for the russian government. It says that he worked for a billionaire ally of vladimir putin. And so Paul Manafort<\/a> did not address the new revelations today. Here is what sean spicer said about Paul Manafort<\/a> in todays white house briefing. He was a consultant. He had clients from around the world. There is no suggestion that he did anything improper. But to suggest that the president knew who his clients were from a decade ago is a bit insane. There is not he is not a government employee. He didnt fill out any paperwork attesting to something. There is nothing he did that suggests at this point that anything was nefarious. He was hired to do a job. He did it. Now you know what sean spicer looks like when he is lying. Actually, its not that he was lying about that stuff. Its just that he always looks the same way. Like when he was lying about Paul Manafort<\/a> the other day. Listen to this. And obviously there has been discussion of Paul Manafort<\/a>, who played a very limited role for a very limited amount of time. Joining us now, former u. S. Ambassador to russia and msnbc contributor michael mcfaul. Also david corn, Washington Bureau<\/a> chief for mother jones, msnbc political analyst. David has been reporting on the manaforttrump connection and wrote an article today titled Paul Manafort<\/a> tried to help Russian Oligarch<\/a> suspected of mob ties get a u. S. Visa. David, youve got some real detail there to add for us. I want to start with the ambassador to talk about the significance of this, of the ways in which russian influence works. That Paul Manafort<\/a> is standing on the point today that i didnt work for the russian government. Based on the story as it stands tonight, what do you make of that point in the totality of what we know . Well, i know oleg deripaska. I dealt with him when i was in the u. S. Government and as a u. S. Ambassador. I think what people should understand is this distinction between the state and the private sector in russia is a lot more blurred there than it is here in the United States<\/a> or in any liberal democracy. Mr. Deripaska coordinates very closely with the kremlin. He made his fortune because the government basically helped him make his fortune. And at least in the reporting in the ap story today, the secret document, the strategy document says very explicitly that mr. Manafort will help putin and his image and the russian government in all those different arenas, the political and economic and press arenas. So even if he is paid by somebody in the private sector, although in this murky definition of a private sector, the job was to help the russian government and the image of vladimir putin. David, i basically just want to say go to you and tell whats you think we need to know about this story, giving everything that has been said about it today and where we stand at 10 37 p. M. Tonight. I think the ap story was brilliant. And my piece followed up on that just because i was talking to someone about manafort who told me years before manafort signed this deal with deripaska, he also was helping deripaska get a travel visa to the United States<\/a>. In the late 90s, the state department had said that deripaska could not travel here because he was suspected of having ties to russian organized crime. And really, for the next ten years, and even up to now, the travel visa issue has been a big matter for him. He hired bob dole as a lobbyist as well and others to try to win a visa for him to come to the United States<\/a>. And the fbi let him in here once because they wanted to talk to him about organized crime ties. Then they said you cant come back because you didnt tell us the truth. So there has been a lot there. But it just goes to show that manafort had a long connection with this guy. And was doing it probably for a lot of money. And the point that spicer make, well, this is all like ten years ago. It doesnt matter. Well, the point was that a fellow who had made millions of dollars by helping a putin ally was running Trumps Campaign<\/a> while the russians were hacking the democrats and the whole campaign, while trump was saying very inexplicable things about putin. So its not an odd question for anyone in the White House Press<\/a> corps to put to sean spicer or to donald trump. And while they were changing the Republican Campaign<\/a> platform. Of course, that too. On ukraine and the u. S. Policy there. Ambassador mcfaul, to one of the points david just raised, the idea that this guy could not get a visa because of suspected mob ties. You dealt with these cases as the ambassador. They would come across your desk. What level of evidence was necessary in order to push these visa applications aside on those kinds of suspicions . Was it just any suspicion . Was there some certain level of suspicion that had to be reached . Well, lawrence, given your previous conversation before the break about not revealing secret information, im not going to talk about that. What i will say is that in the government, his case was raised at the highest levels many times, and he eventually obtained a visa by the way by becoming a, quote unquote, diplomat. Being part of the apec summit delegation. And thats how he has now travelled to United States<\/a> from time to time. But i just want to emphasize again this distinction that theyre trying to make that this is a private contract that had nothing to do with the russian government. Thats not how the russian system works. It all is intertwined there in moscow. Ambassador mcfaul, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. David corn, im going to need you for a later discussion. Please stick around. My pleasure. When we come back, the investigations. Have you lost track of them . Do you know how many there are in the congress right now . The fbi, the investigations of all of these trump connections to russian and russian influences. Were going to map it all out for you, next. Dear predictable, theres no other way to say this. Its over. Ive found a permanent escape from monotony. Together, we are perfectly balanced, our senses awake, our hearts racing as one. I know this is sudden, but they say if you love something. Set it free. E you around, giulia hey, need fast try cool mint zantac. It releases a cooling sensation in your mouth and throat. Zantac works in as little as 30 minutes. Nexium can take 24 hours. Try cool mint zantac. No pill relieves heartburn faster. There is the fbi investigation. There is the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> investigation there is the senate Intelligence Committee<\/a> investigation there is the Senate Judiciary<\/a> subcommittee investigation that Lindsey Graham<\/a> and Sheldon Whitehouse<\/a> are leading as bipartisan partners. How do you keep track of all of them . And which one is the most important to follow . Joining us now, ken dilanian, intelligence and National News<\/a> reporter. Ken, i suspect the most important one to follow is the one were not allowed to follow which is the fbi investigation because that can end up with people in court being charged with crimes. But of what we can follow, where should we be keeping our eye, and what do we expect to happen when in these investigations . Well, lawrence, i could not agree with you more. Im focused on the fbi investigation because, you know, james comey revealed to the world what we had already reported. But it was important that he revealed it, that theyre doing a counterintelligence investigation into how russia hacked and leaked and interfered with the election there is also a criminal investigation into whether Trump Associates<\/a> were complicit and colluded with that effort. If you want to understand the template or one of the template, all you need to do is read the dossier written by former British Intelligence<\/a> operative Christopher Steele<\/a>. That alleges a well developed conspiracy between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and russia. It has names. It has dates. It has some things in there that are not true. My sources tell me that the fbi has corroborated some of it. The fbi was prepared to pay Christopher Steele<\/a> to investigate for them. That deal fell through. But they have found him to be credible. And, you know, im told that as many as 100 fbi agents are assigned to this investigation at three different field offices around the country. Theyre getting help from the cia and the Treasury Department<\/a> abroad there are some challenges. They cant interview witnesses in russia, for example. This investigation has thou become public. So it becomes difficult for them to do things that they normally do behind the scenes. But, you know, we know because its so public, we know some of the figures that theyre interested in looking at. Obviously youve got roger stone, who is back channel to wikileaks. The former trump adviser who traveled to moscow. Mike flynn who had to resign after he was alleged to have lied to the Vice President<\/a> about the Russian Ambassador<\/a>. So there is a lot for the fbi to grab well here. My understanding is theyre going through records. Theyre trying to interview every witness possible. And it may take some time. It may take as long as a year or two. And the congressional investigations are inevitably going to have to follow the fbi. Because the fbis got the investigative firepower. And congress is going to have to take the documents and the information from them. And we may not get any conclusion here, lawrence, but its definitely a serious matter and its a story that is not going to go away. It may be for example in the congressional investigations they reach a point where they cant get any further because then they would be then they would be inviting the fbi investigation. And they just have to wait. Thats setng weve seen before. As you know, you can put an fbinvestigation in jeopardy if youre a congressional investigation. So they may do other things like bring former cia director john brennan and James Clapper<\/a> to talk about the russian angle and what they did and how that was a threat to democracy. So thats the way they can inform the public while the fbi is doing its work behind the scenes, lawrence. Kendyl lane i delainilaniand keeping it all straight. If you like your obamacare, you might no be able to keep your obamacare. Ho its off to work we go woman on the gulf coast, new exxonmobil projects are expected to create over 45,000 jobs. And each job created by the Energy Industry<\/a> supports two others in the community. Altogether, the industry supports over 9 million jobs nationwide. These are jobs that natural gas is helping make happen, all while reducing americas emissions. Energy lives here. Im phil mickelson, pro golfer. My Psoriatic Arthritis<\/a> caused joint pain. All while reducing americas emissions. Just like my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. And i was worried about joint damage. My doctor said joint pain from ra. Can be a sign of existing joint damage. That could only get worse. He prescribed enbrel to help relieve pain and help stop further damage. Enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. Serious, sometimes fatal, events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. 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Again, there has been no formal offers of anything that is a detailed enough manner at this particular point to suggest that its all over. Were only one component of several people trying to make a decision here. Where would you place the odds that youll get to in the next 24 hours . This is washington, d. C. So the odds are never great. According to nbc news whip count, there are now 29 republicans opposed to the bill. No more than 22 republicans can vote against the bill in order for it to pass without any democratic votes. Is the Trump White House<\/a> now too distracted in damage control to get its first big bill passed . Thats next. You have seen direct evidence of collusion . I dont want to go into specifics, but i will say that there is evidence that is not circumstantial and is very much worthy of investigation. vo this is not a video game. This is not a screensaver. This is the destruction of a cancer cell by the bodys own immune system, thanks to medicine that didnt exist until now. And today can save your life. The search for relief often leads here. S, today theres drugfree aleve direct therapy. A high intensity tens device that uses technology once only in doctors offices. For deep penetrating relief at the source. Aleve direct therapy. How confident are you that the bill will pass . And if it doesnt pass, is there a plan b . No, there is no plan. There is plan a and plan a. Were going to get this done. Joining us now, adam jekyllson, the former deputy chief of staff to harry reid. He is currently the senior strategic adviser at the American Progress<\/a> action fund. And back with us is david corn. Gentlemen, i just want to show a couple poll items here as we think about how this Health Care Bill<\/a> is going to move through congress. First, on the quinnipiac poll, do you believe former president Obama Wiretapped<\/a> trump tower . 70 say no. And then on the approval, the job approval for president , trump 37 approve. 56 disapprove. Adam, when the president is trying to push a major controversial, difficult legislation through congress as he is now, wi with the health c bill, what does it mean when 70 of the public are saying we think he is a liar about the scandal that he is in the middle of, and we strongly disapprove of the way he is doing his job. 56 disapprove. What do those numbers mean when youre trying to push legislation . I think it means theyre being pushed by a very weak president , a president who in the publics eyes is a loser and who doesnt have the support of most people. I think its tough to get your arm twisted by someone who is weak. And the president is weak right now. David in washington, all subjects are the same subject. Theyre all kind of glued together. And the Health Care Bill<\/a> cannot escape what else is going on this week. When youre a republican member of the house thinking how much do i want to extend myself for this president , youre looking at the mess he is in. Yeah, you can see he has one foot on the plank. It seemed like it happened three weeks ago, lawrence, but it was only two days ago, do the math here. Two days ago that the fbi chief came out and said the president was in essence a liar for talking about the wiretapping claims. And oh, yes, by the way, weve been investigating at least his Campaign Crew<\/a> since last july to see if theyve been colluding with russia on one of the biggest hacks of u. S. Democracy. So those are not strong positions to be in. And then you also see polling numbers that obamacare is now approved by 58 of the public. And that what they want to do is Rip Health Care<\/a> away from millions of americans. So i think this is a tough vote. And if its not a tough vote for a republican, they should really read the papers again. Adam, the congress has multiple investigations going on about the whole russia connection to trump world. You have an fbi investigation going on. You have media investigations going on. David corn working on it every day. How do you judge the system to be working at this point . And what else do you think the system, the overall system might need to get at whatever this truth is . I would say on the press side, the system is working well there is a lot of aggressive reporting out there. Reporters are the people who are getting the truth out to the American People<\/a> right now. I think on the congressional side, its an open question. Our dracy is built to suive, to withstand threats from the executive branch. But its an open question as to what happens when the legislative branch is complicit in those threats. And i think thats what you saw with chairman nunes today. Rather than acting as an independent check on the president and holding him account, he is acting as his surrogate and as his willing, obedient foot soldier. I think thats a problem. And what happens is an open question. Adam, real quickly before we go. What is your sense of how all this machinery of scandal is impacting the legislative effort for the republicans . Well, i think its going to its not impacting it positively from their perspective. Its very difficult to advance a legislative agenda with a president who is as unpopular and wracked by scandal and unable to drive a message on a consistent basis as this president is, as he is constantly dogged about but revelations about russia and new scandals. I would put in a plug here. Tomorrow were launching a big new website called the moscow project. Org. Story its hard to keep your head around the whole story. This is a onestop shop for everything you need to know about the story. Themoscowproject. Org. Writing it down right now. David corn, adam, thanks for joining us tonight. Sure thing, lawrence. The 11th hour with Brian Williams<\/a> starts now. Tonight the new firestorm over the russia investigation. The Top Republican<\/a> on the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> takes evidence directly to the president and so the top democrat fires back with a bombshell of his own. Also, what were learning tonight about Paul Manafort<\/a>s business ties to russia. Well talk with the senator who wants to call him to testify. 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