Investigations, i was not expecting the secretary to talk about facebook in those terms and i think thats interesting and important and deserves some reflection. I think that facebook should answer to what she said. So thats kind of top line. I guess overall im probably still too much in the middle of it. I have to say at a personal level, im happy to see her doing well. When you see someone a lifetime public servant, been the wringer shes been through, we all imagine the personal toll that takes and so i was happy to read the book and think that its a good book and recognize her voice in it and doing this good work to produce this thing. Also happy to see her in person and she she is well. She is definitely still in the arena, though. Combative on the Trump Administration in without mincing words at all and very, very straightforward and very not aggressive is the right word but assertive and well informed on the russia stuff. So, shes this is not a retired politician. I know she said she wont run again but this is somebody whens very, very much in the arena given the circumstances of her election and who won against her i think thats an incredibly interesting dynamic for the country moving forward and never had this before. Rachel, i have always found that politicians run for office, once they have decided and publicly announced that theyre not going to run for office again, talking to them is a different thing. Thats a different vibe from it. You talked to her. You interviewed her when she was running for president. Interviewed her several times before this. This is a different person. Yes. Occupationally who youre interviewing tonight, sething off in a different kind of direction and i have to say i felt from the audience that there was a different feel to listening to her that you didnt get that sense of candidate caution and feeling the boundaries of what she can say about this and not wanting to disturb certain constituencies and feel a confidence in, this is what she thinks about this and has to say. Yeah. And i think thats right. She writes about the cautiousness and guardedness of the public persona in the book and pretty good insight into the development and the pluses and minuses. But my feeling when i had talked to her run for president was that her cautiousness and the measuredness with the words was because she was somebody who was probably about to be president. And so, she was preparing to be president and trying not to tie herself up both in terms of somebody to answer for something on the campaign trail and somebody who wouldnt want to tie herself stuff up with something to follow into the presidency. I always felt like she was the only non president i talked to who ever seemed like a president. Now she doesnt seem that way at all. She knows she is not going to be president and run for office again and doesnt have to answer as a candidate or public official and she is being absolutely blunt and i mean, if you dont like her, you probably find it to be pushy. If you like her, you probably find it to be refreshing. Theres a big change from what it was to talk to her this time last yore. The longterm prediction is Hillary Clinton approval numbers go up. And they tend to always do when a politician says im not running again because the public has a different relationship to that person, that persons not asking anything from them anymore. And they kind of have a i think actually a clearer view of who that person is. Yeah. And some of that will depend on what happens inside the Democratic Party. I think the Democratic Party needs to figure out who it is now and, you know, if its not the brock bam party or Hillary Clinton party, theres competition for whose party it will be. And how she fits into that is how democrats see her and independents and people writ large i think you are right and the numbers go up and the fact that the book is actually a good book will help with that. Rachel, thank you for another great hour and important interview. Thank you. We have new reporting from the New York Times today that gives us new, dramatic details about President Trumps unpresident ial, very unpresident ial reaction to the Justice Departments appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate donald trump and his family and his campaign associates. The short version of it is that an out of control, livid president called the attorney general sitting there in the oval office with him an idiot and demanded his rez ignition on the spot. And the attorney general called an idiot shook with emotion and then later that day handed over his written resignation. Heres how it played out. Fade in on interior oval office day, may 17th, 2017. In the room, the president , the Vice President , the attorney general, White House Counsel Don Mcgahn and other aides not named in the New York Times reporting today which puts them high on the list of suspects as sources for the New York Times article. The New York Times credits their inside information on this story to current and former Administration Officials. Thats the phrase they used and others briefed on the matter. Now, some of the former Administration Officials who were probably in that room are fired white house chief of staff Reince Priebus and Senior Adviser steve bannon. Coincidentally in the story told to New York Times, priebus and bannon do and say nothing wrong. Theyre the smart guys in the story. So if youre betting on who the sources of this article, who the sources of this dramatic scene might be, high on your list should be Reince Priebus and especially steve bannon. The man who pledged on sunday night on National Television that he would be loyal to trump forever. Steve bannon is newly liberated from the white house to tell whatever stories he feels like telling. With his name on those stories, or his name hidden. In the credits. The unnamed credits of those stories. So the meeting in the oval office is to discuss the appointment of a new fbi director and a replacement for james comey who the president fired eight days before and in the middle of the meeting White House Counsel Don Mcgahn revealed a phone call and not clear if he took the call in the oval office or left the room. On the other end of the phone is Rod Rosenstein saying he was going to appoint a special prosecutor. Don mcgahn announces that news in the oval office. Almost immediately, mr. Trump lobbed a volley of insults at mr. Sessions. This is from the New York Times account telling the attorney general it was his fault they were in the current situation, mr. Trump told mr. Sessions that choosing him to be attorney general was one of the worst decisions he had made. Called him an idiot and said that he should resign. Mr. Sessions told the president he would quit and sent a resignation later to the white house. According to four people, mr. Sessions would later tell associates that the demeaning way the president addressed him was the most humiliating experience in decades of public life. And thats coming from a guy humiliated by the United States senate when the senate refused to confirm him as a federal judge in 1986. It was after that that Jeff Sessions got his revenge on the senate by running for a senate seat and winning. Mr. Trump ended up rejecting mr. Sessions may Resignation Letter after senior members of the Administration Team said it would only create more problems for a president who had already fired a fbi director, National Security adviser. Mr. Trump once again in july told aides he wanted to remove mr. Sessions but for a second time didnt take action. Mr. Pence, steven k. Bannon, the chief strategist at the time and Reince Priebus, chief of staff all advised that accepting mr. Sessions resignation would only sow more ayos in the administration and rally republicans in congress against the president. The president relented and eventually returned the Resignation Letter to mr. Sessions with a handwritten response on it. That Resignation Letter with that handwritten response will now become an exhibit if it hasnt already in the special prosecutors investigation. Joining us now, david frahm for the atlantic, matt miller, former spokesman for former attorney general eric holder and judge sugarman from fordham university. David, your reaction to this news today from deep inside the Trump Administration which remains the leakiest white house in history, even after general kelly came in there to stop the leaks. The New York Times has apparently when you look at it more sources than they needed to construct this dramatic scene for us today. Its important i think to give credit to attorney general sessions who has held fast. Hes been obviously as you can see here under ferocious president ial pressure, wanted the investigation stopped. Jeff sessions who stepped out of the way to allow Rod Rosenstein to make the decision. Under unrelenting pressure and stayed the course. Sessions is a very conservative person. But he is an institutionalist and put in a position before the nomination where i think for reasons of self preservation, he said things that were not true in front of a senate committee. I think that must rankle him. He is not an untruthful person by character. Hes very conservative and not an untruthful person and hes been holding the line, he is one of the most important defenders of the institution the country has right now and we just got a closer view of what has been brought to bear against him. Matt miller, you reaction to this scene . The president calling the attorney general an idiot getting the news about a special prosecutor . Yeah. I think the president s conduct is abhorrent. I think one of the words that struck me is he accused Jeff Sessions of disloyalty. The Jeff Sessions decision to recuse himself from the case is not a discretionary choice on his part. It was a black and white requirement under conflict of interest rules and what the president was asking him to do was put loyalty to him, loyalty to donald trump over Jeff Sessions adherence to the rule of law, the requirement to follow the rules, follow the regulations as they were laid out an only think theres one reason for donald trump to do that. Why would donald trump care who is in charge of this investigation . If he wasnt worried about where it would go. He wanted Jeff Sessions in that job still overseeing that investigation i believe because he wanted to steer in it a way that was helpful to him just as he wanted Jeff Sessions there at the Justice Department to help him to sign off on the firing of jim comey, an act thats investigated as obstruction of justice. Professor sugarman, what is your reading of the evidentiary value to the special prosecutor, for example, of this account as presented in the New York Times today . I want to pick up where Matthew Miller left off with obstruction of justice because you know robert muler is reading the story and going to add it to the list of questions because this ties into one of the key components of an obstruction of justice case. Under 18 usc 1312 is a question of the effort to corruptly impede, influence or obstruction justice an the scene we have here helps establish, one extra piece of establishing corrupt and intent. Why was trump so angry about muellers appointment and sessions role . He expected sessions to help him obstruct an investigation firing comey and you see his fear and anger about the appointment. Why was he so fearful and angry . Paints a picture. By itself it doesnt show corrupt and intent but it is a possibility of being able to flip sessions because he now has some questions about his criminal liability. He may be another witness in this case. In light of this story and the possible sourcing of it for New York Times, i think its worth listening once again to what steve bannon said to charlie rose on 60 minutes about the firing of james comey. Someone said to me you described the firing of james comey, youre a student of history, as the biggest mistake in political history. That would be probably that would probably be too bombastic even for me. Maybe modern political history. The firing of james comey was a biggest mistake in modern political history . If youre saying thats associated with me, ill leave it at that. And david frum, days later we have a dramatic account from inside the oval office, something steve bannon would have been able to provide to the New York Times and now that steve bannon is a fired former Trump White House player. David. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. I want your reaction to the coincidence of steve bannon being fired out of the white house and now stories like this start to come out. Well, when steve bannon say that is the firing of james comey was such a terrible mistake, the question is, were back in the claim of the coverup is worse than the crime but donald trump may well have feared that he had no other choice, that the consequences of leaving comey in place were even worse. That when you are, you know, when youre in the cross fires like this, you have a diminishing menu of choices. And there is not this suggestion of steve bannon of an innocent way out and everybody would have been fine. That suggests there isnt a big secret behind the door when i think it smells stronger and stronger there is a big secret behind the door. Listen to Hillary Clinton said to Rachel Maddow about this story tonight. I think the goal might well have been psychologically to really make Jeff Sessions whos a very proud man, i served with him in the senate, didnt agree with on him on anything but i did serve with him, to make him just be more dependent on pleasing the president. Whatever he could do, delivering that speech about daca, only to have trump a few days later say, hey, just kidding. We are going to do something that will keep these young strivers in our country. Its all part of his manipulation. Matt miller, with your experience in government, your reading of Hillary Clintons interpretation of the scene . I think secretary clinton is right. Especially if you look at the time line here. So this meeting happened on may 17th, the day that bob mueller was appointed. The president demanded Jeff Sessions resignation. He got it and turned it down. It was two months later in late july where the president started to go and rail Jeff Sessions and criticize him as weak and then everyone interpreted the behavior to push sessions out the door. I think we have learned he wasnt trying to push sessions out the door. You have to ask what he was doing with that public belittling of the attorney general. I think high school clear to bend him to his will. Accused him of disloyalty and wanted sessions to know, if you are my attorney general, you cannot do this again. Look. The Russian InvestigationJeff Sessions recused from. But this is not the last time this white house is going to ask this Justice Department to do something inappropriate. We have seen Sarah Sanders do it three days asking the department to investigate jim comey so i think what the president sug naling publicly to sessions is i expect you to do what i want you to do whether its the right thing to do or not. Matt miller and jed shugerman, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Republicans are openly attacking the president after he agreed to work on immigration legislation with Chuck Schumer and nancy pelosi. To try to save the dreamers. Find a Legal Framework for them. And the president blamed the violence in charlottesville on both sides once again today. baby crying fly me to the moon elegant music and let me play bell rings oh, you yeah ht butch. butch growls at man hes looking at me right now, isnt he . Yup. butch barks at man butch is like an old soul that just hates my guts. laughs vo you can never have too many faithful companions. Introducing the allnew crosstrek. Love is out there. Find it in a subaru crosstrek. Reviews are on in Donald Trumps dinner with Chuck Schumer and nancy pelosi last night and the right wing hates it. Bright barts headline read trump caves on daca, wants quick amnesty for 800,000 illegal aliens. Ann coulter tweeted put a fork in trump hes dead. The bad news for Trump Supporters came last night and nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumers statement about the din. We agreed to enshrine the protections of daca into law quickly and to work out a package of Bor