Investigation. As several testified to what they witnessed in the Trump Administrations dealings with ukraine. During the hearings a new book was published from inside the Trump Administration. It is entitled kate a warning. And the same person wrote an oped last year saying donald trump must not be ler reelected. The times identified the author as a Senior Trump Administration official. In the new book the author says conservatives dreaming donald trump is our savior needs to wake up. Not only is he not a conservative, he represents a longterm threat to the republican party. Those cheering him onto a secondterm with foaming at the mouth excitement that he is totally owning the left are unknowingly nailing coffins into the gop. The author admits to being wrong in 2018 when the author claimed that a quiet resistance inside the administration was keeping donald trump in check. Elected bureaucrats and cabinet appointees were never going to steer donald trump in the right direction in the long run or refine his malignant management style. If donald trump is reelected anonymous predicts the guardrails will be gone entirely and free from the threat of defeat this president will feel doubled down on his worst impulses. Heres how anonymous sees the stakes of the 2020 president ial election. We should see trumps acs as fireable offenses regardless of whether or not congress determines they are impeachable ones. If the president is reelected you can count on the fact that he will make other dishonest requests of foreign powers. No external force can ameliorate his attraction to wrongdoing. His presidency is continually jeopardized by it, and so are americas institutions. Joining our discussion now, neera tanden, president and ceo for the center for american progress. And joy reid is with us, host of am joy right here on msnbc. Thank you very much for joining us. Of course. This book its amazing it has been i wont say ignored, but it hasnt been able to get the kind of attention even the aumd piece got when it came out in the New York Times because this news landscape has been so filled with the hearings. But it certainly is an important background or for the hearings. Absolutely. And you know i think it is possible for these two things to be true. I think this person is a rank cowered for being announcement and refusing to put their name behind what theyre doing or if they still work in the administration to resign or come forward and then also right. Because the reality is the way countri countries descend into autocracy is because you have a leader who allow them to engage in rampant corruption, who participate in driving down the authority of the institutions theyre supposed to be in charge of, who cause foreign governments to get into corrupt deals with the leader of the country. Autocracy proceeds exactly the way Donald Trumps administration is proceeding. Because hes surrounded by a Political Party theres nothing to stop his autocratic impulses and got forbid he gets reelected this man will be unchecked. If he comes back in it will be vengeance and theft. Thats what he will be there for, vengeance and theft. Neera, theres more in the book about exactly this, actually. It quotes a group of high level advisers to the president talking, and they say about a third of the things the president wants us to do are flat out stupid. Another third would be impossible to implement and wouldnt even solve the problem. And a third of them would be flat out illegal, and all the heads nodded when that was said. That, by the way, accounts for 100 of the president s thoughts. Either illegal, impossible to implement or flat out stupid and maybe esome of them are all three. Yeah, and ukind of just hope for the stupid. I think actually what weve heard over the last couple of weeks with the impeachment inquiry or the investigation is a confirmation of that. You see and were learning more and more details and learned more and more details about how the president wanted to essentially engage in illegal behavior and cover it up. And so i think whats important about this book and i agree 100 with joy reid this person isnt a hero but perhaps just a little bit better of a person than the entire cot offense the republicans in the senate and house who are openly supporting the president and his illegal behavior. I do think it provides a window, an additional window into an administration in that in which some of its supporters believe this is all a show and he really does know what hes doing behind the scenes. And obviously this gives light to that. Theres a passage in the book that indicates donald trump is a very deliberate i was going to say criminal. But hes very deliberate when hes verging on criminal activities. So theres this passage saying we can tell when trump is preparing to ask his lawyers to do something unethical or foolish because thats when he starts scanning the room for note takers. What the eff are you doing at an aide who was scrimblibbling in notebook, are you taking notes, im sorry the aide said. His paranoia is the best evidence of a guilty conscience. And joy, there seems to be when you listen in the testimony in the hearings a real carefulness when hes threading the needle of illegalities with gordon sondland, for example, never saying exactly the words yes, this is i want them to do this. And then specifically according to sondland saying the words there is no quid pro quo, which he seemed to be reading off a cue card some lawyer had just given him because the whistleblower had already blown the whistle. There seems to be a real conscious instance about him. Absolutely. And Michael Cohen said the exact same thing. When he wants you to do something he and you both know is wrong he wont say do it but he makes clear to do it. Our friend has talked about Donald Trumps extensive use of the mob in terms of the buildings in new york and hes a m m m mobesque kind of person. Its as if he walks into a bank, stands up on the counter and says i am not robbing this bank but im going to need you all to go and empty everything thats in the vault into these bags, but im not robbing this bank. And he thinks because i said im not robbing this bank he isnt clear on bank robbery. Hes done this with all the transactions. Everybody knew what he wanted from zelensky. Everybody was read in. Its right there in the phone call. And then what they do is limit the access to the information what exactly was said. What they do with the real transcript is hide it. What has he said to vladimir putin, theres no read out. They hide that. What has he said to the Saudi Arabian dictator . We dont know. They hide the actual transcript and the notes and the note takers, the wheem who actually do take notes are the people who bust him. I want to read one more passage how he deals with the lawyers this from the book. Trumps first instinct is to force the answers he wants from his lawyers. He will berate them to their faces for not seeing the law the way he sees the law, and he cannot stand it when they tell him no, which they incidentally have to do all the time. Thats what is so concerning about his handling of government lawyers. Trump drives them to edge of whats reasonable or legal and then badgers them until they take the plunge, bringing the administration along for the fall. And neera, we certainly get that feeling from all the testimony weve heard in the Intelligence Committee where this was the president s idea with Rudy Giuliani probably to hold up this aid. And then he forces mulvaney to do it. He forces pompeo to go along with it. He forces everybody involved in this thing to go along. Yes. Obviously the book is confirming of what weve seen over the last several weeks, and actually obviously over the last several years. But i think whats really important about this book is it paints a picture of continual a continual desire to break the rules. And a central question before the house and eventually the senate is, you know, do we prescribe the president s behavior now or wait until the election . Republicans already are saying lets let the election decide this. Whats really crucial about this book is it shows donald trump will break the rules until hes stopped. He will engage in illegal activity until hes stopped. And if this doesnt stop him, we shouldnt just rely on him letting the election go, he will try to break the rules again. Thank you both for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. And when we come back, president trumps lies about career officials in the government being part of some deep state scheming against him. Thats the topic of an important new book by pulitzer prizewinner james b. Stuart, he joins us next. And later itll be my honor to introduce the second woman in history to win the nobel prize in economics. She will tell us about the most important issues in the president ial campaign that we are all discussing every day and that the candidates discuss every day. Ay and that the candidates discuss every day. All the time. announcer when you have the best network, you wanna give the best network. Feliz navidad announcer this black friday weekend, you can give americas most Reliable Network and the latest iphone. Id probably give it to her grandparents so they can take tons of photos. My mom is amazing. If i got her one of these for christmas, shed be freaking out. announcer now through sunday, get up to 800 off the latest iphone when you switch. With plans starting at just 35 per line. squeals yeah, exciting. announcer happy holidays from the network that gives you more. Can you tell me the story again . Every family has their own unique story. Give your family the chance to discover theirs this holiday season, with ancestry. This holiday season, with tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. Fixodent ultramax hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. So now you can eat tough food without worry. Fixodent and forget it. [ dramatic music ]ing ] [screams] elliott. You came back when chuck todd asked republican senator ron johnson yesterday if he trusts the cia and the fbi now, ron johnson threw out a bunch of names of people who no longer work at the fbi. Do you trust the fbi and cia now because none of them any of the conclusions you have come to. Im just curious do you trust them now . Now who are you talking about . The cia and fbi. I dont trust Andrew Mccabe. I dont trust james chemo. I dont trust peter struck. I dont trust john brennen. That is the essence of the trump deep state Conspiracy Theory that insists what eventually became the Mueller Investigation was started by fbi officials who were deeply prejudiced against donald trump while he was running for president. Attorney general barr is now flying around the world investigating that himself, something weve never seen an attorney general do. William barr could save a lot of time by picking up a copy of deep state. It includes a thorough investigation of how the investigation of russian influence began inside the fbi. The president is on his way to impeachment tonight because of his obsession with that very question which was included in what he was pushing the president of ukraine to investigate. Deep state is his tenth book. Hes a pulitzer prizewinning reporter whos worked with the wall street journal. And he delivers a kind of bountiful harvest of important scoops that weve come to expect from his Investigative Journalism including the names of the two members of the trump cabinet who Deputy Attorney general rosenstein believed would be in favor of invoking the 25th amendment to remove from the presidency. For that and more we turn to james b. Stewart we joins us about deep state. Its very hard to land dead center into todays news and verdicts news with what we saw senator johnson doing on meet the press. Explain to the audience what senator johnson was trying to do on meet the press . Hes done what ive explored in deep state and what i think is so terribly destructive to Democratic Institutions of this country, which is to attack the Law Enforcement agency of the United States, the department of justice, the fbi, the traditionally independent investigative and judicial branches of government and accuse them essentially of being filled with traitors and spies and being part of a deep state that is trying to protect its own powers and eject a democratically elected president to preserve those powers. And that is so far from the truth. I mean there is in a sense a deep state in this country. There is a very large bureaucracy that is thrown to uphold the constitution and to protect the people of the United States. They do not work for the white house. And when the white house violates the constitution or does not act for the people of the United States its their obligation to step in. And its the obligation of the whistleblower also to come forward with information that needs to be investigated. So attorney general william barr is flying around the world trying to do what your book does. He is trying to figure out how did the investigation of russian interference start, what became the investigation of donald trump by robert mueller. How did that all start . Its all right here. He could save a lot of time in the sky. And taxpayer money. God only knows how much is this costing. Did it start was it started by fbi officials prejudiced against donald trump . Was that the animating force in starting that investigation . Absolutely not. The last thing they wanted was to have to investigate another candidate for president. They were already investigating hillary clinton, which put them in extremely awkward and an uncomfortable position. Now for the first time in history they were forced to investigate the other candidate as well, both at the same time. They didnt want to do that. And by the way, they didnt begin an investigation of donald trump himself. This is a very important point, though, i think many people dont realize. He was not the subject of the investigation until he recklessly and impulsively fired james comey and then lied about the reasons for it. That is what caused trump himself to become the subject of an obstruction investigation. Some of his Campaign Workers were subject of investigation, but trump himself was not. And by the way, it did not begin with the salacious steele dossier either. The fbi people and ive talked to many of them, they didnt put much store in it, and ive read it very carefully as well. Its a it has no what you would call actionable intelligence. It didnt say theyd be meeting next month to have further discussions of this or theyre plotting another release of fake tapes of the president so they could perhaps insiniate that, disrupt it. No, its all stuff that happened in the past. Its very odd although some of it does ring true. That wasnt the basis for it. And even the australian ambassador, trump has been trying to enlist the australians, threatening them, cajoling them. I mean the australians, theyre one of the closest allies of the United States and the intelligence community. The australians got the information that the russians had hacked emails from hillary clinton. They didnt do anything about it until it actually became demonstrably true yes these things did exist. And only then did they bring this to the attention of u. S. Intelligence agents, and it was perfectly responsible and appropriate and reluctantly the fbi plunged into this. This book is filled with movie drama, dramatic movie scenes including as you mentioned after james comey was fired. Rod rosenstein in this book is in tears with Andrew Mccabe, says some extraordinary things. I want to squeeze in a commercial break here. When we come back you can tell us who those two trump cabinet members were who Rod Rosenstein believes were ready to join him in an attempt to remove the president with the 25th amendment. Were going to be right back with james b. Stewart right after this. With james b. Stewart right after this so tmobile is giving you an iphone 11 on us for each new line of unlimited. For yourself, or up to a family of four. Keep your family connected, and hurry into tmobile today, to get up to four iphone 11s on us. Only at tmobile. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. So what does the dishwasher do . Cascade platinum does the work for you, prewashing and removing stuckon foods, the first time. Wow, thats clean cascade platinum. Itso chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. With chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. Chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, youll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. When you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. Stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or lifethreatening allergic and skin reactions. Decrease alcohol use. Use caution driving or operating machinery. Tell your doctor if youve had Mental Health problems. The most common side effect is nausea. Quit smoking slow turkey. Talk to your doctor about chantix. We are back with james b. Stewart author of the new and important stunning new book deep state. I want to go to one of the scoops in this book and you have more than we can cover tonight. Was thrown into an emotional tizzy and hes in discussions with Andrew Mccabe in this book, hes crying. And it is in those moments where you where Rod Rosenstein says maybe i should wear a wire to record the president. And as reported in this book which you didnt know before, he said it twice. And in one of those meetings someone was taking notes. And so Rod Rosensteins public claim was that was a joke or his friends say it was a joke. And your witnesses say there was no evidence that was a joke, that was serious. Thats correct. He said it was a joke. He sort of said he didnt really say it but if he said it was a joke. And there are two akags where he said there are notes of this conversation and more than one set of notes documenting that. Theres nothing in those notes to suggest it was a joke and also denied saying he wanted to invoke the 25th amendment and he even named two cabinet level people who were going to support that namely john kelly the chief of staff and sessions the attorney general. And the 25th amendment requires a majority of the cabinet plus the Vice President so he was going to begin with Jeff Sessions and with john kelly to get the cabinet to vote. It sounded like theyd already discussed it with him and gotten encourage. I think the people who heard it didnt really take it all that seriously. They took it as a measure how unnerved trump was by the fact trump was trying to set him up as the person who said fire james comey. He made him write that memo about clinton which wasnt the rael reason he was fired and came and told him to give that press conference. Its the combination not so much he fired him but that he was lying about it and then admitted it was really russia which raises the whole obstruction issue. Theres two scenes in this book that are not together but they kind of in our minds come together. One is Rod Rosenstein goes into the white house under tremendous pressure after its been revealed that he wanted to wear a wire, and hes going in and everybody believes donald trump is going to fire him, and you remind us there was split screen coverage of the kavanaugh confirmation and rosenstein going into the white house. We expect him to be fired. Hes not fired. So the question in your book is what did rosenstein say in the oval office to keep his job, and another scene that jams up against is rosenstein standing right there besides bill barr when the Mueller Report came out in effect demolishing as much as they can. There you see the transformation in our eyes as rosenstein who started out as a respected prosecutor who like many people came into contact with trump, and the price he paid for surviving was essentially to become the foot soldier for trump and stand there mutely while he heard barr make demonstrably untrue characterizations of the Mueller Report. So those meetings with trump are critical. I mean, the Justice Department was drafting the press release that he was fired when he went over there. He was being taken to the woodshed. Everybody knew, the New York Times reported he was going to wear a wire. Trump was prepared to fire him. Somehow he comes out with his job intact. What did he do . What did he say to keep his job and reassure trump . And then in turn what did he do to keep mueller in the job . I mean he was muellers boss. What did mueller have to do or not do in order to keep being fired, and rosenstein said to me in his defense his sole mission was to protect mueller but if the price of getting over the finish line was to clip his winnings, to not let mueller insist on getting testimony from the president as every prosecutor i know believes he should have and then for mueller to ignore the whole story of rosenstein in his report which i report in my book but he didnt put in the report but i know he knew it because rosenstein was one of the first people he interviewed. While that was in there remains very baffling and leaves legitimate suspicions mueller was influenced to pull some punches there. A real honor to have you here. The amazing reporting weve come to expect from you. Thank you very, very much for joining us. Deep state is the name of the book. This is must read material if you want to understand what the Trump Administration is still up to right now and what attorney general william barr is trying to do. Up next, chaos in the not so United Kingdom triggered by mr. Chaos himself, Boris Johnson and brexit. This is the governing chaos story we would be covering every night if we werent covering the chaos of the trump presidency. Te chaos of the trump presidency. [ electrical buzzing ] [ dramatic music ] ahhhh ahhhh elliott. You came back little boy hes coming makeawish volunteer ok, hes coming, cmon cmon. Here we go. little santa and. Somali. somali thank you, santa. little santa . Alika . alika me little santa . Liam. . liam right here. Thank you, santa. little santa open it wheres kiara . vo when you grant a childs wish, you change lives. little santa i got this for you. vo you can choose makeawish to get two hundred and fifty dollars from subaru when you get a new subaru during our share the love event. We make aspirin to help save lives during a heart attack. So it never stops the heart of a family. At bayer, this is why we science. Wayfairs biggest black fridis now on. Ever yes score unbelievable savings. Like living room up to 70 off. Storage solutions from 9. 99. And area rugs up to 80 off. Plus, tons of limitedtime mystery flash deals. And Free Shipping on everything when you shop from thanksgiving through cyber monday. And were just getting warmed up. Our black friday blowout is happening now through december first. Shop the event of the season, only at wayfair. Com. With tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. Fixodent ultramax hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. So now you can eat tough food without worry. Fixodent and forget it. Donald trump liked it better in the good old days when they called it england. I have Great Respect for the u. K. , United Kingdom. Great respect. People call it britain. They call it great britain. They used to call it england, different parts. Joining us now is a columnist for the irish times and the guardian. Hes the author of the new book the politics of pain, post war england and rise of nationalism. Well, donald trump would understand at least one word in the title. England is what he wants to call it. So it turns out brexit is showing us its not exactly a United Kingdom. It sure is not. Its interesting even, you know, trumps formulation of it. He didnt know what to call it. In his own kind of strange way he was hitting on some kind of truth. This is conglomeration of islands. And what weve been seeing slowly over the last 20 years is the english kind of coming up as an english nationalism which you recognize in america, this kind of nationalism is a real force. And its very poorly articulated. It doesnt really know what it wants and then someone comes along and says you know what you can do is you can kick the European Union, we have an enemy over there and that will help you define who you are. And of course its not working out too well. So in america we watch brexit. We are confused by it endlessly. We see these absolute deadlines that just appear and another deadline appears. Im sensed that covering it as a day to day news developing story is an adequate way of describing whats happening over there. Youre going into a kind of social psychology of this place especially a place that really is called england, that spot within the United Kingdom. You know, its a very old nationality. A very proud nation. They have every reason to be proud. Im not trying to undermine them or marginalize their identity at all, but theyre obsessed with two things. One is the Second World War which they still havent really properly dealt with. If you listen to politicians now theyre still talking about winston churchill. Theyre still talking about dunkirk, still talking about the blitz. Theyre using this language all the time which means somehow theyve never dealt with what i think is their problem. And within ten years theyre looking at germany, italy japan and that didnt happen to america and america is booming is coming into its own of the second wurl war where the brits are declining, and theyre losing empires is the big thing, of course, theyre never really quite come to terms with. So you have these strange psychological constructs still there, most of the time people dont think about these things. You know, they just get on with their lives. But when someone comes along and says youve got a problem here and i can solve the problem, i can give you an innomy which will make you feel good about yourself, and of course this is why its gone nowhere because it has no positive content. This is negative proposition that just says leave the european yawn and everything will be good. And you find actually undoing 50 years of history is not that easy, in fact. Jow need to know where you want to go, and i think the real english problem is they dont really know where they want to go. Because you say they are caught in the a conflict with their own sense of superiority and inferiority. People talk about whats the legacy of the empire, its gone a long time. You think surely this is over. But the one thing that remains is a mentality. In an empire you are either the top dog or youre being kicked. Theres nothing in between. Theres no normal state, and i think the english still apply this to themselves. So they ask the question am i dominating this . And if im not, it must be dominating me, and this i think became plausible with the European Union where they could say we dont dominate this thing, which they dont. But if were not dominating it the only other possibility is that were being really opallingly oppressed by it. You get this kind of selfpity, this ridiculous kind of charade of saying this is like hitler, its like stalin. Its ridiculousilously over the top and what the english find very hard is just to be normal, just to be what they are which is very prosperous western european democracy. Theres an incredible iraonn in that one of the last hunks of imperialism which is Northern England seized the empire which no one goes how to make work in brexit, too complex to explain to our audience tonight. But its so ironic that Northern Ireland is the Thing Holding england back from its desired brexit, if it is still desired by a majority, which is unclear. Its a great point, lawrence, because they dont really care about Northern Ireland. No, they dont. It was a newsance and now theres no trouble and thats great. You dont think about it anymore. And during the whole Brexit Referendum Campaign they wouldnt talk about it. And its the return of the oppressed. The thing you wont talk about becomes the very thing that destroys your whole project. In a lot of ways brexit is like a movie. Theyve written the script. Its a very simplistic kind of story, we break free from history, but no one breaks free mum history. History is real. Where history becomes real is Northern Ireland because thats where you have all this stuff as an active live dangerous thing, and its made it impossible for them to escape. The last throw of the dice and this is what Boris Johnson has just done really is dump on Northern Ireland. So what hes done is basically say Northern Ireland can more or less stay in the European Union and were going the other way. Can you think of any other state that would do that . I know a lot of people maybe in new york might want to get rid of alabama. But you wouldnt ever really say were going to build a border between alabama and the rest of the United States, thats essentially what boris is doing, its going to end up with a breaking of their own state. The union really wont survive and maybe donald trump will be after all maybe thinking i dont know what to call it because maybe in ten years time we might be calling it something different. This social psychological case, thank you very much. Real honor to have you here. All of my real understanding of whats going on over there comes from you, and it should in our audience, too. Thank you very much. Coming up, the billionaires versus Elizabeth Warren. Some billionaires are worried about the warren wealth tax and what it could do to their next egg. But this years cowenner of the nobel prize in economics will give us her expert analysis of the wealth tax and the Economic Issues that she thinks should be at the strf the president ial campaign. The strf the presidenl campaign may your holidays glow bright and all your dreams take flight. Lease the c 300 sedan for just 399 a month at the mercedesbenz winter event. Hurry in today. Get new deals all day during amazons black friday sale, happening now. Everybody needs somebody to love low prices and Free Shipping on millions of items. Are you currently using a whitening toothpaste, but not seeing results . Try crest 3d whitestrips. Its enamelsafe formula lifts and removes stains to provide 100 noticeably whiter teeth or your money back. Try crest 3d whitestrips. We have now reached the billionaires versus Elizabeth Warren stage of the president ial campaign where the seems every other day another billionaire is given a public microphone to express outrage at Elizabeth Warrens wealth tax and a billionaire terror of a possible Elizabeth Warren presidency. Last week bill gates said something in the fractured world of twitter made him appear to be just another billionaire afraid of Elizabeth Warren. You know, i paid over 10 billion in taxes, ive paid more than anyone in taxes. But i you know, im glad to have if id had to pay 20 billion its fine, but, you know, when you say i should pay 100 billion okay im starting to do a little math about what i have leftover. Sorry, im just kidding. He said he was kidding, but many people believed that he was really worried about having to pay 100 billion in wealth taxes and so Elizabeth Warren took that opportunity to send him a tweet saying id love to explain how much youd pay under my wealth tax, i promise its not 100 billion to which bill gates say i greatly respect to your commitment of finding way tos address wealth inequality and poverty at home. We certainly agree we need a lot of smart people committed to finding the path forward. Im always willing to talk about Creative Solutions to these problems. Bill gates and Elizabeth Warren agree much more than they disagree. You just heard bill gates say if you want to double his taxes, hes cool with that. And that makes bill gates more progressive on Income Taxation than most of the democrats running for president. Bill gates stays out of politics as much as humanly possible. He doesnt endorse candidates. He hasnt created some giant super pack with all this welt, but he did make it very clear in that interview last week brilliantly conducted that he would vote for Elizabeth Warren against donald trump if thats whos on the ballot next year. He made that clear when he was asked that specific question. Bill gates didnt name names, but he said that the thing that he would value most in a candidate is what he called a professional approach to the presidency. The audience started to laugh because obviously donald trump has the least professional approach to the presidency in history, and everyone in the room knew bill gates was saying in effect he would vote for the democrat no matter who it is. Bill gates is one of the few billionaires who agrees with our next guest that billionaires are undertaxed. Ester duflo is this years cowinner of Economics Nobel Prize and wan that by studying the way people make real economic decisions in real life. People like bill gates and People Living in poverty around the world. And what she found contradicts most of what you have heard from tall titians about real world economics, and her findings should be heard in the president ial campaign. Shes the second woman in history to win the nobel prize in economics, and she joins us next. In economics, and she joins us next as soon as the homeowners arrive, well inform them that Liberty Mutual customizes home insurance, so theyll only pay for what they need. Your turn to keep watch, limu. Wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Hi honey, we got in early. Yeah, and we brought steve and mark. Experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. Sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first months payment. Wayfairs biggest black fridis now on. Ever yes score unbelievable savings. Like living room up to 70 off. Storage solutions from 9. 99. And area rugs up to 80 off. Plus, tons of limitedtime mystery flash deals. And Free Shipping on everything when you shop from thanksgiving through cyber monday. And were just getting warmed up. Our black friday blowout is happening now through december first. Shop the event of the season, only at wayfair. Com. Im a verizon engineer, and im part of the Team Building the most powerful 5g experience for america. Its 5g ultra wideband for massive capacity and ultrafast speeds. Almost 2 gigs here in minneapolis. Thats 25 times faster than todays network in new york city. So people from midtown manhattan to downtown denver can experience what our 5g can deliver. woman and if verizon 5g can deliver performance like this in these places. Its pretty crazy. Just imagine what it can do for you. I am all about livi g joyfully. Hello. The united explorer card hooks me up. Getting more for getting away. Rewarded going new places and tasting new flavors. Rewarded traveling lighter. Rewarded. Haha, boom getting settled. Rewarded. Learn more at the explorer card dot com. And get. Rewarded was an afterthought. The first nobel prizes were established in 1895. 74 years later, a nobel prize in economics was added to the mix in 1969. And in the 50 years of nobel prizes in economics since then, only one woman had won a nobel prize in economics. And now, there are two. This year, esther duflo is the cowinner of the nobel prize in econom economics for her realworld study of how economics really works in real peoples lives. And how that knowledge can be used to improve the economic lives of more people. In an echo of esther duflo last week, bill gates gave voice to one of her important findings. That contradicts much political talk about taxation. We can raise taxes in a lot of ways. Including, you know, making some gifts to foundations more taxed. We we have a lot of room. The current thing is not either in terms of encroaching philanthropy or discouraging informing of business. Were not close to the limit. I mean, there was a time when we had 70 taxation rates. Joining us now is mit economics professor esther duflo. This years cowinner of the nobel prize in economics. Her book is good economics for hard times coauthored with her husband who is also the cowinner of this years nobel prize in economics. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much. It mustve been so exciting for you and your husband. First husbandwife team in get the prize in nobel economics. Getting that call Early Morning is it . Yes. It was incredible way to be woken up at 5 00 a. M. Yes. And you have no hint its coming, right . I mean, people dont realize how the nobel works. No hint whatsoever. Theres no nominees. So lets go to what bill gates just said because its one of the central elements of your book. And the republican aurmrgument of course, you must not tax anyone more than were taxing them. And if you tax these rich executives more, theyll just work less. Itll be a disincentive to work if we tax them at the highest level. Bill gates saying, no, no, no, theres much more room to tax us at the highest end. There certainly is. And if we taxed the rich more, think about football players. In many cases, there are caps on their salaries. And that doesnt stop them from trying to win. Yeah. The you compare and thats whats so fascinating about this. This is not just your your opinion from observing the world. Youve actually looked at salary caps on on professional athletic teams in the United States versus europe where there are no salary caps. And you dont see any effort difference in the salarycapped players versus the players that dont have any salary caps at all. No, of course not. Because winning is everything. And its the same thing among ceos. What matters is the rank. And this incentive issue is what youre finding throughout your research. That incentives in in classical economic theory dont work the way we might think they do. For example, the argument about welfare, disincentivizing people. They wont try to work if you give them welfare. What did you find about that . Similarly, the poor also dont stop working if there are no incentives for them to work. Thats also an illusion. For example, when welfare become more generous, people dont stop working. Its been demonstrates in countries after countries. Poor countries, middleincome countries. The poor are not discouraged from working. In fact, weve known that since the late 60s and 70s in the u. S. Where there were the socalled neg t socalled negative tax experiment. And it had no discouraging effect on their work. So its actually a little secret that we have sort of kept hidden. Theres also and and whats so important about this work is you go into the field. You do real experiments to find out really how things work. And youve looked at immigration. And you tell us in this book a very different story about what immigration in the United States is doing economically. There is two big misconception about immigration. The first one is that the floodgates are just waiting to be opened. And if immigration was more liberal, everybody would want to come to this country because they live in poorer country than we do. And the second misconception if that happened, then the native workers, the poor walkorkers ine u. S. Would be poor. First of all, the migration flows are quite even when there are no values to migration. For example, in europe. When there was a big crisis in greece, people mostly stayed in greece. So its not that people are waiting for an opportunity to jump and come. People only come when they are desperate or if they are super enterprising and really want to make a better life for themselves. In which case, we should want to have them here because theyll contribute to the economy, et cetera. The second miscon semception isa lot of worker come, they will take away from the wages from the people here in this countries. And that also happens to be not true. People have looked at episodes from like the influx of cuban refugees in miami. When we kicked out many Migrant Worker from california in the 60s. And there are dozens of episode like that that shows that migrant do not take away wages from native worker. And this is something people do not know. You also mention in here something a new fact that i wasnt aware of. Is that our internal migration rates have dropped dramatically. America used to be a place where we had a very high rate of people moving from place to place within the country. Generally, to where the jobs are. And now, when jobs get wiped out in a particular location, people are not moving the way they used to. Which, by the way, is what classical economic theory always said they will do. Theyll just move to find a job. What if they dont . And thats what youre finding. Yes. Thats actually a very important presumption. Both as economist and perhaps more importantly politicians that people would move. If i lose your job my job making furniture in new yororth carolina, i can move to new york to sell furniture. They are about half what they were in 1948. Were going to have to leave it there. Esther duflo, congratulations on the nobel. This is a very important book. Good economics for hard times. This book belongs at the center of the president ial campaign. That is tonights last word. The 11th hour with Brian Williams starts now. On this special thanksgiving Weekend Edition of the 11th hour, we share a guide to some of our favorite books and authors of the past year from Donald Trumps takeover of the republican party. So kim jonguns brutal regime in north korea. To the most brazen intelligence heist of this century. And to the raid that took down bin laden. All of it as this special edition of the 11th hour gets under way. Greetings once again from nbc headquarters here in new york. Thanksgiving 2019 puts us at day 1,044 of this Trump Administration. And we want to take you through some of the most compelling stories that we have been told in this very studio. Throughout this broadcast, we
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