Place here, theres three more, as you can see in the difference. You cant see that clearly at the moment, but you can see the stretches out there as well. Now, this has been one of the hardest areas to get to for a long time. It had to be helicopters. Weve driven it, and that took many hours. You can see the Rescue Workers are here now. These helicopters are coming in to pick up either survivors, or bodies and to take them away two major hospitals in cities that havent been so badly affected. Theyre also running from here, into the remote villages that are still completely cut off by road. Theyve done a remarkable job, at actually getting the road open as far as we are. It took a long time and it is quite scary because its quite clear the wrong could happen if there was another trump. Or it could come back down. This is another house and Apartment Block that has been completely flattened. It was here that we saw the body of that young woman i mentioned, being taken away. Theyve got in some cutting gear, theyre obviously trying to get in under what looks like a floor. Its actually the roof of the building thats just come straight down. And theyre just trying to get underneath. Occasionally, it goes a very quiet and they say hold on. Theyre trying to see if somebody is alive. I have to say, when theyre doing this and thats moving rubble, debris, when they try to move the building, its probably pretty certain that whoever is in there has not made it. Is not alive. Its difficult to see, as i said before, in this particular area, how anyone would really stand any chance. Its fair to say many didnt. You look around parts of the town as well, its not just this is sort of a ridge line that lead down to the valley floor. That basically collapsed. This is where houses were. This isnt the edge of a cliff, this is just part of the town. But its just completely slipped down. And then further up, you can see here, this was a major administrative building. A supermarket there as you can see. They just turned completely into trouble. This rescue effort, its going to go on for a long time. Id say its a Recovery Effort now, for many people. But there is still hope. But that hope is really running out. Theyve only got a few days, the golden days. Theres only two or three, maybe four. Sometimes in earthquakes you get an amazing discovery of somebody whos been able to survive, but its very hot here, theres no rain due. And so i think if theyre not found in the next day or two, then there will be no hope. Thousands of people have died. Yeah, that was sky news chief correspondent stewart ramsey. Turning now to the latest news in the fastmoving effort to challenge Donald Trumps eligibility for the presidency. One month ago, the idea that Section Three of the 14th Amendment could disqualify the twice impeached multi indicted failed former president from Holding Public office again was mostly just a discussion topic, debated among legal scholars. But now, six voters in colorado have filed a Lawsuit Seeking to remove trump from the states ballots for the upcoming president ial election, alleging that his role in the January 6th Insurrection makes him ineligible for public office. Its a case that the revered legal scholar at harvard university, called, the strongest of the suits filed to compel secretaries of state to apply the 14th Amendment disqualification clause to trump. Professor tribe and his colleague, the retired former federal judge Jay Michael Luttig helped to bring this topic to the forefront of the public consciousness about three weeks ago, after they cowrote a widely read police for the atlantic, bluntly titled, the Constitution Prohibits Trump from ever being president again. And then they appeared on the show at the time of the publication to explain their stance. Their endorsement of this idea has given the movement new momentum, as the 2024 primaries approach, with trump as the front runner for the republican nomination by a country mile. Well discussion of trumps eligibility has intensified quickly over the past month, its not the first time that the question has been raised. Just five days after the insurrection at the capitol, to Law Professors wrote an oped for the Washington Post and raise the possibility of invoking the socalled Disqualification Clause Two barred trump from Holding Office again. A month later, two former Republican Congress members, both from the state of missouri, proposed the same thing. Writing that the former president quote, poses an exponential threat to american democracy. But the exact meaning of the disqualification clause has largely been untested for the last hundred 50 years, simply because there hasnt been an insurrection or anything resembling an insurrection in the United States in that time, up until january the 6th, 2021. Frankly, theres not a lot of precedent to give definitive guidance as to how and when the disqualification clause can be properly invoked. Although, some groups have put it to the test in the two and a half years since the insurrection, and the results have been mixed. Georgia congresswoman Marjorie Taylor greene faced a similar challenge to her candidacy last year, but she was ultimately not disqualified after a state Administrative Law judge ruled that there was insufficient evidence to prove that she engaged an insurrection. But last september, a group of new mexico residents successfully sued to have this man, the Otero County Commissioner kobe griffin, removed from office using the 14th Amendment as the basis of its argument at the time. Can we griffin had been convicted of participating in the capitol riots, and perhaps more importantly, that ruling was the first time that a court explicitly called the events of january 6th an insurrection. Section three of the 14th Amendment is short. Its two sentences. But its untreated ground. Because of that, it could set a new president and completely up and the 2024 president ial race, and thats why we are going to continue to follow this story very, very closely. Joining me now, steve bennett. Hes a producer for the Rachel Maddow show and an msnbc political contributor. He is also the author of the book impostors, how republicans quit governing and seized american politics. Also with us as a scott he is a Criminal Defense Attorney, a partner at reid smith lp, and the former chair of the National Bar Association. Good morning to both of you gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Steve, lets talk about this. This amendment and this particular clause of the amendment have been around for a very, very long time. Some people have been talking about it, its been hinting around dormant for a while, and poof, this thing burst on the scene and now secretaries of state all across the country are being forced to look at it. Either because the media is talking about it, or people are emailing their offices, or because theyre filing lawsuits. Tell me, as somebody who follows these stories very closely, how you see this developing. How you see thi i think its interesting to see that its not just secretaries of states that have this on the radar, All Of A Sudden donald trump has it on his radar. For the better part of the past two years, academic exercise. Theyre just shattering about these conversations online, he can blow it off. But its a great interest that over the last seven days, All Of A Sudden donald trump is taking it seriously. You seeing him denounce the lawsuits, describing it as a trick in his words. Now, this is emblematic of the fact that the conversation has fundamentally changed. It is no longer just and obstruction, there is no longer academic debate that is happening in the atlantic. Were having this this is moving to the political sphere, moving to the legal sphere, the courtroom sphere. And its getting the attention of donald trump among others, because its reaching a point where this is actually becoming a threat to his candidacy. Well, scott, as i discussed with Professor Tribe earlier in the show, he believes of all the stuff thats going on out there, this colorado case is the strongest case to emerge yet. Highlighting that the plaintiffs have standing. Thats a word with which you are very familiar, those of us who are not lawyers dont really understand. But this has been tried before in florida, and they say the voter doesnt have standing. Its not up to a random voter to decide whether or not another american citizen has the right to run for office. Talk to me about this. Theres something actually about colorado law that makes this a little more in tribes view, a little more meaty. Im sorry im going to disagree with Professor Tribe, whose books i have been trained on at howard law school. But let me just say this, i believe hes right about colorado law, because theres a specific statute that enables the public, the voters, to bring this challenge in district court. It empowers them to get a decision, and the court to give a decision. Conclusions of law or what we need here. Constitution doesnt have any guidance for us, right . And so its a living document, none of these provisions die. And so youve got to interpret it as if were in 2023, which we are. And what we usually will do is file a lawsuit, have some findings of fact by a jury or a judge, reach some conclusions of law, let the parties appeal it, get to the Supreme Court. If you get a finding of fact or a conclusion of law in the judicial system, then you can rely on that. But lets remember one last thing. In most jurisdictions, voters have standing to administratively challenge before the board of election of ethics, to throw somebody up the ballot. If youre in political competition or candidate, you can always move the person off the ballot. And thats whats really powerful about colorado. You can do this in many other jurisdictions, simply through the administrative process that then you can go through the process, and get a final decision from the Supreme Court. This is a really important that we need to look closely at and stay focused on. Steve, in a testament to what scott has just been trying to explain and was trying to explain, there is so little president out there. And we dont really know how to make sense of it. This very week there was a moment when Donald Trumps lawyers, who have been trying to get this removed from colorado because they thought it was disadvantageous for this case to be heard in colorado, they wanted it to be moved to Federal Court. They then reversed their position on it and realize they didnt have the standing to do so. So, there are two points here. Its unprecedented. Number two, one of the points that Laurence Tribe makes is that its not a criminal statute. Hes not gonna be indicted for this, hes not going to jail. This is a qualification. Its a rule. The same rule that says you have to be 35 years of age, or you have to be an american born person to run for president. The argument here is that hes disqualified from being president , not that hes committed any crime or is subject to any legal proceeding. Right. And i think thats an important point, because it leads to the effect that trump doesnt quite know what to say. Were not a point where he is pushing back against he realizes that theres a threat. He realizes that this is a conversation thats moving beyond academia. At the same time, hes pushing back in such a way to suggest he doesnt know what to do with this threat. We see him lashing out wildly at people like Andrew Weissmann and others, where he does a lot of namecalling. We see him denouncing them and begged terms. But at the same time, were now seeing a legal argument. Were not seeing a political or a policy argument. We dont know what to say. Although he recognizes the seriousness of the threat. Hes ultimately, if these lawsuits succeed, is he even eligible for the presidency . Is he eligible for the ballots . And the answer would be no. Scott, interesting point. Theres a couple things in this. I really just implore everybody to read your constitution generally, but read this 14th Amendment and read that clause. Donald trump continues to show support for people who have either been convicted of taking part in the January 6th Insurrection, or are currently being prosecuted. Thats actually part of the clause. Giving aid and comfort to those who have done so. He remains entirely unrepentant about those actions, he called at one point, you all remember, we must forget these things. He called for the constitution to be terminated. It lasted about a day. He said he didnt say it, except he posted it so we could see that he said it. If one is evaluating whether donald trump is sort of squishy on insurrection, its his own words that will be used again him that administrative hearing. Yeah, i think youre right about that. And maybe he takes the stand, maybe he doesnt. But this is going to be a fact finding mission, and the judge and the court or going to have to reach a conclusion. Showing support through his First Amendment, for people who attacked the capitol, that may be disgusting and ridiculous, but hes got a First Amendment to do that. Whats more important is it did his words drive that insurrection, and his subsequent support. , those are positive facts for the plaintiffs in that colonial case that in fact hes engaged in support. But the constitution doesnt give us any guidelines to enforce it. A judicial decision has to be made, whether its by a judge or jury, to enforce that. But remember one thing. The power of this approach in regards to the colorado, and keeping him off the balls, is even more powerful than the criminal piece, because it can be more efficient. But heres what we should be paying attention to. Donald trump doesnt have a campaign. His criminal prosecutions are his campaign, and his criminal prosecutions a part of this political process. If he gets off the ballot, thats even more powerful than him being criminally convicted, which is why this lawsuit in colorado, and there will be others around the country, are what we really ought to be watching. Because if he is not off the ballot, then he cant be elected. If you cant be elected, is a political fundraising and he becomes irrelevant. Although he will continue to be in the process, of course. That is why this topic is so important. Thanks to both of you guys. We appreciate it. Msnbc political contributor, he is the author of the impostors, how republicans quit governing and seized american politics. A scott bolden is a Criminal Defense Attorney and former chair of the National Bar Association pack. Up next, according to the twice impeached quadruple indicted president , we are living in up in a republic. 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