That its happening, that its much closer than they think always something we can do about it. I just i think the spotlight has really changed Public Perception on this. Its changing the way that we are looking with how to deal with it. Its a wonderful thing from a Harm Reduction perspective. You think of people who are already victimized oftentimes have no control over their lives at all and throwing them in jail is not the solution to the problem. Right . So you do want to address those root causes. Can i get some education, can i get some access to work. Can i help make sure that my record is clean so that im able to get a job when im applying for a job later its the humane thing to do. Much like the drug courts, expanding of the drug courts. They handle these people technically are guilty of some form of illegal activity but experienced teachers say they ought to be treated differently from those with a source of this activity. What do you mean . Are you talking like the mules as owe positivessed to the dealers . Exactly. Lets take that. When were drug dealers we dont go after the victims, people who are possessing large quantities they are selling. We go after the dealers. These men are the dealers. We ought to go after them first and foremost, try to help the women. One thing we should point out there is one thing of decriminalizing in trying not to prosecute the wrong people but dont move to legalizing prostitution. I am opposed to that. There are countries that do that. Saying its legal and fine than there is actually protecting the people that okay, but as far as i know theres no movement, the feminists are for helping these women and not prosecuting them but certainly not legalizing prostitution. As far as i know. Theres no effort that i know of that is against helping victims of Human Trafficking anywhere. It sound like we have consensus at this table that this is a wonderful thing. In terms of sex work itself thats a highly controversial topic within feminism inside the movement. And if you want to know where i stand personally, i think that it actually would be a good idea to decriminalize sex work across the board. I think this do you think that would help women . I hear what youre saying, ive heard from particularly european sex workers who say, i do this on purpose. Its easier for me, i love my life. Im sorry, i dont believe it. Sure. Im happy to speak a little bit to why i would say that. One, i think you can put in place protections when people dont have to operate under the radarment you can make sure that people have access to Health Screening are critical issue for that population. I another issue is you want to make sure that its easier for people to get support they need to get out of the trade if they dont want to be there. One of the ways we do that we focus on the root cause which is poverty not the problem tis of sex work itself. Wait a minute. This is exactly what these courts are doing. I think without legalizing it this form of decriminalization is much better we dont have the stamp of approval on it. In fact we have the stamp of disapproval on some of the men who have gotten away with it. Thats right. I dont think we want any of our daughters becoming sex workers or prostitutes for that matter. Its helping these women understand that they can have other choices being able to provide that support. I think going through this approach through the state court system gives them a chance to feel like, you know what, i may be able to have a different lot in my life. They might not be aware of the options because theyre being victimized by these men that are making the money off of them. All right. Let us know what you think please follow me on twitter bonnieerb. From traffic topping government. Show few americans favor this weeks Government Shutdown but women less so than men. A cnn poll found about a third of men approved of the shut down only a fifth of women did. Women are also more likely to blame republicans. This comes at a time when republicans are trying to rebrand their party to attract female voters. They have launched project grow to excite women about the g. O. P. But polls show its not working. Of the women polled a third said the party was drifting away compared with 14 who believe its becoming more appealing. Meanwhile, womens groups are mobilizing against the shutdown. They fear repercussions on Domestic Violence centers and aid for poor mothers. Congresswoman, are women voters and nonvoters are the republicans exacerbating the woman problem with the shutdown . You know if you really want to rebrand you got to understand thats really not about messaging its about what you do. This is about what you do. The kinds of who depends on Government Programs more than anybody else. Who doesnt like forceful kind of activity more than anybody else. Now, its easy to say both sides are to blame but you know, women are this not stupid. They know who controls the house of representatives. They know and have said overwhelmingly there must be better ways to change a law thats been approved by the Supreme Court than to try to get your way by shutting down the entire government and cutting us, we the people, off from every Government Program in which we depend. We should be clear that when we talk about Government Shutdown not talking about Social Security checks thought going about, not talking about things like that. You are talking wait, let me respond. Talking about no headstart. Talking about no treatment for children with cancer. You are talking about programs the fact of the matter is the republicans in the house pass a continuing resolution which funded everything the government was doing. A week ago they can still be doing today including nih, National Institutes of health with democrat sport and the like. It is the president of the united states, president obama and harry reid were not willing to compromise on anything. Look, you can say whether its appropriate to do around the debt limit or whether its appropriate to do it around whether or not its time to pass another budget. But certain point as country facing a 17 trillion debt as many people are very concerned including many women that theyre losing their healthcare or their hours are getting cutme of obamacare that at some point you got to revisit the law. We revisited it for businesses, weve revisited for unions. Weve revisited for members of congress and their staff. But somehow the individual taxpayer, women and men let me i hear you on the debt. Completely. The deficit as well. The shut down is costing 2 billion thats an awful lot of money that republicans are costing over this grandstanding. Doesnt that figure in to it . You had the white house senior official come out and say, we are winning on this we are winning, we dont care how long it takes if it means its going to be shut down. Talk about bad messaging they are coming across saying it doesnt matter, we dont care how long the government is shut down were just going to cross our arms do exactly what the president is doing and liberal Senate Democrats are doing and not negotiate. We know that in almost all these different administrations, going back to reagan, going back to clinton, when there was a Government Shutdown the president has not been has not been just about his party. Hes been about for all the American People and bringing the two parties together to negotiate. Right now the president just appears to be the head of the democratic party. He represents all americans which means he needs to bring both sides together, be the parent in the room and get this resolved. Two points. One about opting. Optics, the first day of the first government shut down in 17 years you have air canada tweeting out a photograph of eight white men sitting at a table saying, we are ready to negotiate with the forall. Illustrating who is getting hurt by this shut down right now. In terms of the substantive piece what weve seen is that the republicans leadership in the house used initially one of the opening salvos of trying to block a clean continuing resolution was to try to mess with the Birth Control mandate in obamacare, which showed that honestly their deployment regressive social agenda is as strong as their unseriousness of governance. This is awful. Youve got children, the wic program is crazy to me as mother of newborn infant to ii that there are kids screaming and hungry and thats getting caught up, formula being caught up in this political game. Its irresponsible. But wait a second. Obamacare issues when you hear Something Like that, okay, as a republican strategist both of you, what goes through your mind about what the message is thats getting out to the very women who the Republican Party need to recruit if theyre ever going to win a national election. I think there is a heck of a lot of disdecemberinformation in the medium i have never seen know of by the broad media to try to find what they call these hard cases pretending that its happening all over the place. First of all even talking about, i love this, all the government workers in dc who were being furloughed or laid off right now how many times in the past like five times weve had Government Shutdown under clinton, under reagan, all those government workers have gotten back pay. They all got paid an september 0th going to be paid again in two weeks. This idea that were getting were getting wait off topic here. The topic is, the question is, the perception that american women have of what the Republican Party is doing. Im telling you the part about perception is shaped by stories played out in the media such as the very first night they to go this woman in chicago who works in the epa and shes talking said she cant pay her bills. Doesnt make any sense she got paid last week, getting paid again in two weeks, what was scheduled she cant pay it its not because of the the losing side is the media did it to us. Who is doing it to us and you know what that does. That really insults the 72 of the American People who say, they dont want the american dont want government shut down in order to deal with everybodys problem with obamacare. I think we ought to listen to them and not blame the media. All right. Behind the headlines. Can the modern woman win her battle for perfection, in new book wonder women sex, power and the quest for perfection, debra, president of Barnard College, my alma mater by the way, says they canned find and theres nothing wrong with that. In her book, debra proposes that despite all the Progress Women have made they must still face the reality they cannot have it all. And her observations may offer women some relief. What ive been hearing thus far, what im very happy to hear, is people sort of breathing a sigh of relief. Saying, i felt good reading the book because ive been beating myself up. And so i think it is useful for both middleaged women, older women, younger women to, just recognize that if theyre not perfect its not because they failed in some way. Theyre not perfect because nobodys perfect. 25 years ago sparr never would have imagined a career up academia. She wanted to be a spy. But her desire to have a family led her to compromise her dream job. She warns younger generations of the inevitability of facing similarly tough decisions. Thank the young women or midcareer women that as you move higher in your career, that if f thats what you want to do there are going to be different pressures and different realities that you just have to face. Decide whether or not you want to go that route. Before becoming president of Barnard College a private women liberal arts college she worked as Harvard Business school professor. The transition old her eyes to key differences in leadership between men and women. I feel like i underwent the massive hormonal shift. It was a huge difference jumping from a place that was really run by and dominate by men to place thats really run by and dominated by women. They tend to want to be liked more than men do. Its more important to be liked. So theres less sort of topdown management style, theres less of hierarchy at barnard more of consensual style of management. She observes the desire to be liked can be very positive and make women more effective managers. But it can also negatively affect a womans advancement. I think a lot of women are reluctant to make the final steps to being a boss because either consciously or subconsciously they are aware once you are actually the boss you are going to have to make decisions that inevitably are going to anger people. Her box book is full of paradoxes she describes how the feminist movement and womens progress have placed women in a burdensome situation. An era overwhelming women of all ages with too many options and expectations. And although women in their 20s may have learned a great deal from their mothers, they are more confused now about whether to follow in their mothers footsteps. So they have watched their mothers juggle, oftentimes struggle, many young women i see are sort of confused how they validate their mothers stories if their mother dropped out of the workforce how did these girls honor their mothers, by chosing to drop out as well or do they honor their mothers by staying in . The sexual revolution access to contraception and reproductive rights are also gains sparr identifies as potentially misleading to younger generations. They are dealing with a whole new set of sexual norms that is being advertised as being very empowering to them. But in many ways i think also just created another set of expectations that they are supposed to be hooking up and carefree and enjoying it and if that is not what they like, again just created another set of expectations this they feel compelled to follow. Agree or disagree, erin . Strongly disagree. Theres a sticker that they make that says this insults women, i would slap it on this book honestly. Who needs generalizations about who women are and what women want is kind of from the source of whim basically. Im concerned by a number of different strains in the book, there seems to be an element of blaming women for not achieving enough. Im also deeply concerned as a committed feminist that this idea that feminism is about individual traits versus a political social movement for equality. Its not about having it all. What woman out there is trying to, quote, have it all. Its retire that discussion entirely. I agree. I feel sorry for young women now because you got on one hand lean in says you can hatch it all, this one saying you cant. There was a theme in the movie china town where Jack Nicholson was flapping faye. She had a child with her father was the end of the story. Its like these lean in, lean out books. Do they make any sense any more . But i think were in a different period. From the prior generation of, quote, have it all, remember what that was about. It was from the era when many women, white women werent supposed to work at all. When if you did work you were supposed to be satisfied with whatever job you got, not in a job that was, quote, equal. So have it all then was no amenities surrounding you, got to mean id really can be something more than a housewife. I can work. What i think she is trying to explain now is the complexity. One of which we have not dealt with and im going to say i was disappointed to hear her say not deal with this. Its probably easier to, quote, have it all however you want to frame that. If you live in a society like all like our allys do which has educational child care. Remember, these are women trying to have it all, have children and have a real dilemma, particularly in those ages between zero and five. How do i live up to all the expectations built for me by the prior generation which i accept, now that i dont just have a job i can be the boss and i dont have society surrounding me with any of the supports throne. Reality do you have it all i have to say. And then some. Five daughters and you have an important job, youre a political analyst and a consultant. So how did you do it . Well, you know, your support system. Its having that partner, your husband, that person be by your side. I would say my husband is a feminist in his own right. Because he understands the importance and value that i had to not only my family but to our society so it takes that effort of saying, you have to raise these five kids we might be working until were 80 or 90 there street is this responsibility in addition to being able to provide service for the community as well as be a voice out there as well. To add to that, what were dealing with younger generation, which is interesting, is that their choices are a little more limited. Theyre getting out of colleges, these young women, they cant get the jobs they want because theyre not out there. They are stuck with this reality this they might be getting out of the college not being able to pursue the career of their dreams. Weve been pressed to do what we want to be doing but in the case of these younger women its a different reality for them. I think this is why you keep having the books written. Im not feminist in the way that erin is but i do believe that women should have choices. Every economy is different, every period is different, you are always this ying and yang to get the right balance. I dont think were ever perfectly going to get the right balance, but you keep striving for it. Thats why the books keep coming out you have women from different generations, many now from lean in to the most recently we talked about they have been to the top of their game whether its university, whether its facebook, whatever it is. And thats a different perspective than women 20 years ago were able to write from. Its a constant churning i think people look back at their mom, grandmothers they see good and bad from it. And that is it for this edition of to the contrary please follow me on twitter bonnieerbe and tothecontrary and visit our website pbs. Org tothecontrary where the discussion continues. Whether you agree or think, to the contrary, please join us next time. Funding for to the contrary provided by the Cornell Douglas foundation committed to encouraging stewardship of the environment, land conservation, watershed protection and eliminating harmful chemicals.