Work. Rose we end with edward by lurks Anne Hamburger and aj sue buy. When men and women go to war. I dont think you can go over and do all those things and have things done to you and then come back and everythings just like you just unpause your life. Like thats not something thats possible. Rose we conclude with a canadian novelist, Margaret Atwood, her short stories. I called them tales because i didnt want people to think were inrealism although we arey because i dont think there are any real zombies or anything in the stories but there are people who are interested in cut off hands that crawl around by themselves and earth means of deform. Rose general bolger, basetrack live and Margaret Atwood when we continue. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Daniel Bolger is here. Hes an author, historian, retired Lieutenant General of the United States arm y. He served in afghanistan and iraq, and again from 2009 to 2010. After 30 years of servicelu he retired from the army in 2013. Hes written a new book which was released today, veterans day. It is called why we lost, a generals inside account of the iraq and afghanistan wars. Im pleased to welcome general daniel bellsoo bolger for te first time, welcome. Thank you charlie. Rose as you point out in your column, it is appropriate that we salute the men and women. Absolutely. Rose who have put on the uniform and who go in harms risk. Yes. And we must always remember whenever we talk about results in the war, one of the results we can point to with pride as americans is the sacrifice of the bravery, their skill, their courage. And the sacrifices made by their family and fellow citizens to keep them there. Rose you may have seen it on another program, when men and women go to war, their spouses go to war as well. Absolutely. And their children too. Rose and their children too. The title of your book is why we lost, an inside account of iraq and afghanistan. Why did we lose . In the simplest terms, we took that great military that we had with those great men and women and we misused it. Our armed forces are built, the volunteer forces we built in kind of the ashes of the war of vietnam, that defeated vietnam, theyre buitr to short decisive violent campaigns against enemy conventional forces against uniformed enemies, tanks, planes and ships and things like that. Theyre designed, in essence, to do a desert stormtype operation or a kosovo in 99. Theyre not designed to replicate vietnam. We consciously turned from at that time. We knew that was not going to work. Rose didnt we try to learn the lessons of that. The isnt what a lot of the post vietnam analysis was about. It absolutely was. Unfortunately what happened to my generation, leaders that served with, we did learn that lesson. We initiated both wars with that kind of decisive campaign. Afghanistan in 201 and iraq in 2003. We did so well we were so impressed how well our troops did we actually thoughtmh maybe this time well fight insurgency and win. Well fight a vietnam and win. What we forgot was the facts on the ground. The iraqis and afghanistan need to want it. In the end its their filed when you talk about a counterinsurgency. Rose do you think they want it bad enough. I think a good number do. The average folks in afghanistan and iraq, its a different culture than ours but theyre very much people want to raise their family, have a job, get educated, do thing that any normal person in a family would want to do. Very few of them are these jihadi fa that sists like isis. Rose beyond what went wrong and whether were well advised to fight those wars in the way that we did and focus on the future. So what does a president do . If he looks at the advances that isil was makepz and people tell him and theyre recruiting around the world and they have a anywherive and you better stop them now. Absolutely. I think our president has seen that. The presentation he made to the American People, the people he works for, all the citizens, all of us he says some things that are really important. And i think two of them show we have learneing are from a the episodes in iraq and afghanistan. One its going to be an iraqi fight, iraqi arabs, iraqi kurds theyre going to take the lead and well support them. And train them and support air power and intelligence and logistics help they dont have. Another thing equally important he also told the American People this is not going to be a fast campaign. This is going to take a long time because theyre in the lead we are going to move at their speed and its not going to be perfect. Iraqi way and their way is not our way. We made a commitment for a lengthy period of time and i think the president has correctly and rightly warned all of us as citizens this is not a quick war, this is not desert storm over a couple weeks, this is going to last a long time. Rose do you support what hes done so far. I do. Because it doesnt give an immediate satisfaction is an indicator its probably right. And its not unlike the tough decision taken by harry truman in korea when he committed forces there. In 1950s. A lot of people didnt thank you where korea was he elected to pt those forces in. In the end although the war resulted in an armistice, we still have an agreement to the Korean Peninsula that exists to this day. Rose what is americas role in the world. We remain the dominant power. Were the super power. We have a responsibility clearly to look after our interests and our allies around the world. And i think we also have a responsibility, i think, to be clear eyed with ourselves as to what our limits are. As powerful as we are we cant do everything and be everything. Rose im reading the opening in the book. Heres what you said. I am a United States army general and i lost the global war on terrorism. We lost it or is it incomplete . Well, it may be incomplete but i can only look at the two phases that we fought so far. Iraq from 03 to 11ib and afghanistan thats from 01 to 14. Those campaigns were lost and the others remain undecided. So i think it is tough to say that. I wish, charlie, i could come to you tonight and say hey were doing all right, its going to improve. I dont see that. Those campaigns are complete or almost complete and they failed. Now, can something good come of that, can we do better next time . Absolutely. And i think the effort with isis is like that. I know were continuing operations around the world to chase the recommend informants of al kiedz and prevent attacks in our own country. A all those things are positive but we should not kid ourselves that these two counterinsurgencies were failure. Unfortunately yes. We had a failure to go into iraq. You mean the initial invasion. I dont know that it was a failure but i know it was something that we looked at and now looking at the intel people might argue otherwise. Its difficult to tell. I mean just as recently as within the last two weeks the New York Times pointed out that in fact there were quite a few chemical weapons although very degraded that were present on the ground. Its a murky situation over there and one thing i would also say for sure what do we do know about Saddam Hussein whether he had workable chemical weapons. He massacred his own people including using chemical weapons on them. Absolutely. Sponsored several terroristnf groups. Hes a bad actor committing bad things. Probably responsible for the death of at least a million people. So in that regard once we went in, we had to do the job properly. I think in both cases where we made the mistake is we didnt settle for good enough. We didnt let the locals take the fight after the first few weeks and do what they could do run their countries. We wouldnt have been happy. Rose with iraq everybody looks back and say it was a mistake to disban the iraqi army, it was a mistake to take the effort to take the party and eliminate everybody who had ever been a member of the party as an effective force of government. Well exactly right. That was your educatedqu people the technocrats rung the power plants and keeping people fed. Definitely a mistake. I would also point out to a degree the iraq arm forces had already disbanded themselves. John kegan says that in his book. Its a key point. With a he would have had to call them back together to keep them in the army by the time we got to baghdad. Rose some of those people are fighting isis now. Indeed. Displaced number of the sunni arab minority. Thats one of the component of isis and what we fought for the eight years we were there. Rose one point in the column, the surge that is so been applauded by David Petraeus, not by him but his work. He was the commander. Rose and the decision made by the president against arm odds that were going to pull more troops in there. The conventional wisdom is that was a success. And i would tell you that that conventional wisdom is incorrect. And why . What is the nature of the enemy youre fighting. Its a gorilla enemy. Mao zedong said when the enemy advances thats when we retreat. When you show the main force they go to ground. What happened to iraq and afghanistan, they went to ground. As we began to withdraw, enemy retreatsthats what mao told thd years ago. Its still sound advice and has been for centuries. The isis is the natural result of the end of the surge. Surges by their nature are temporary. What both iraq and afghanistan was not a surge of u. S. Troops but a long term commitment that we would support them in their own fight. Rose theres an argument that the Isis Development has been in part they found in syria a place to go in. A sanctuary. Rose and a place to go and get combat skills. Absolutely. Theres no doubt any guerrilla insurgent and rose pakistan, before now. Absolutely. That is one of the thing that Guerrilla Forces needw6 to surve as a sanctuary. In the current strategy although its still working out, it looks like the obama administrations going to try and address that sanctuary. How effective remains to be seen. Rose but this surge in iraq. I think rose it was wrong. I do think that. The problem is we were trying to junk it too close to the event. It did certainly depress the number of enemy attacks. Rose it took place at the time of the awakening as well. Thats right. Where the sunni arabs split away came toward our side. The way i describe it is the patient has a disease. Give the patient an aspirin. After you run out of aspirin the underlying disease is not present. Rose the president of the United States after coming in office in 2008 does a huge and long review and decides to have a surge in afghanistan. That was a mistake. I absolutely think so. At that point youre doing the third u. S. Led counterinsurgence rea in our lifetime. U. S. Vietnam being a failure. There appeared to be a failure of amelioration. Its after that as all president s are, president obama armed with the best information he can get and the best military advice from guys like me decides the surgefm in afghanistan is a mistake. All cases, the main point is the local people must take the lead in a counterinsurgency. Rose how many people in the military said to the president of the United States do not surge . None that im aware of. Rose none. That im aware of and i was in a position to know a good many. Rose where were you at that time. At the time of the rose of the surge in afghanistan. At the time of the decision and the surge in afghanistan i was serving in iraq, i was a Division Commander in baghdad. Rose nobody stepped up to say mr. President do ÷f do ths in the military. Not at all. Rose not the secretary of defense or deputy secretary of defense, not the joint chiefs or the army or the marines or the navy. For the afghan surge. Now the iraq surge was a different story. In the iraq surge the joints chiefs of staff, the secretary ofsuo5n gates all recommended at it. Rose and george bush went ahead with it. Thats right. Rose and David Petraeus was the designated commander. Rose it was probably the most important in the analysis of David Petraeus leadership in iraq thats where he gets the most credit. Well and he should. The commanders responsible for everything the union does or fails to do. He was clearly outstanding figure of the iraq surge. But its note worthy that he came into afghanistan following Stanley Mcchrystal and having to oversee the implementation. The majority of the troops arrived after David Petraeus was in command. Not good results there. Rose its the opinion in the army things might have been different if Stan Mcchrystal had stayed. There was no doubt that stan had the vision for sure how to fight this network terrorist enemy. Some of the things most people in america dont know but they should is that stan was the guy who organized our special forces. Rose in iraq. Absolutely. And later afghanistan and other parts of the world we dont need to talk about. But the fact of the matter is stan was that visionary and he really did that. He only got about a year in command in afghanistan. His ideas were just going into effect. Yn had an unfortunate runin with Michael Hastings and his staff said some things and the military control said i cant have that for my comarnldz, we lost a very skilled guy. Hes cultivated that relationship. Because he was a special forces officer and he understood the local people had to have a leading role. Rose the afghans had to five the afghans war. Rose thats right. Rose and minimize as much corruption. Do what you could but recognize rose i was struck that no one was saying, because one of the criticism and you just heard it in chuck taught todd in e with me saying give me another option. The options that were presented were small, medium and large. Rose exactly. But always a troop increase. Rose what does it say. What it say to me and thats where i write that damming statement im a u. S. Army general and i lost the war. We have a degree of arrogance. Rose we the military we the we the senior leadership. We think our soldiers are so good and our equipment is great and our training is great and were confident in the azto wino anything. If you give us a task we will figure out the resources and way to solve. Some problems are not solvable by military forces. Insurgency by its nature draws strength from a foreign troops in the country. The more foreign troops the more chance you have to defeat. Rose what would general bolger do about isis. I would recommend to the president my best military advice is very much in line what we are doing which is to say measured u. S. Response, filling in those capabilities the iraqis and kurds dont have and preparing for a long struggle against isis. Rose american advisors on the ground. American advisors. Rose for long term. Yes but a small number notm3a large. Rose whats that 10,000. Or less. About what we have now. Rose three. Yes, maybe. Whatever it would take. What ico wouldnt say we know were doing this wrong in we see u. S. Batallions, brigades and regimens, they will disappear as guerrillas they are. Rose is this possible here. Its always possible. Because theres a clock that runs in washington thats different than the clock in theatre like there always is, people want results. Rose theres pressure from the public. To get action. Rose they dont on the ground. Its back to how is the military designed. Its designed for rapid decisive action. When its not doing that theres a natural perception from the American People you put our sons and daughters at risk how long is this going to last. I think the president is hoping the discussion and congress will pick it up with hearings and formal vote where we decide yes well still with this for a long time and if we say no thats fine too but for gods sake let the public be heard. Rose since you retired what are you doing. I teach at North Carolina state university. Ive got an opportunity to steven those teach those grt young men and women there. Rose what do you teach. Military. Rose the book is called why we lost the generals account of theafghanistan wars. He has a column about what we were talking about and hes a retired general of the United States army. Aboutek back in a moment stay with us. Rose basetrack live draws on the experience. It plays at the Brooklyn Academy of music through november 15. The show comes to bam as part of a natural tour with outreach to veteran communities. Heres a look at the opening sequence. Whats the first time said in the platoon. Im from indiana. Im 21. Im in7c the marine corps. My first names mikal. Im looking for a new position. Im 19 years old. My names first lieutenant. Captain john campbell. First lieutenant, nicholas, 26 years old. Im richard gilligan. Corporal. Machine guns. Im a second lieutenant. First platoon. overlapping voices squad point man. Man. My name is aj czubai i grew up in Fort Worth Texas in the United States marine. Rose joining me now for a discrimination about basetrack live is Anne Hamburger which produced the show. Edward bilous of the Julliard School who created the show and aj czubai who served in iraq and of gap stan. Basetrack live is based on his story. Im pleased to have all of them at this table. Welcome. What is basetrack line. Its multimedia experience about the impact of war on veterans and their families derived from real life interviews with marine unit and afghanistan. Marine unit one eight and their families. Mothers, wives and sons. Theres a score that was composed by ed bilous and two other composers , michelle and greg that runs throughout. But it really centers on impact of war not just on the guys who served but on their family as well. Rose ed how did it come about. A few years ago i went to see an exhibition that was produced by google and the streaming museum. I saw this extraordinary collection of photographs taken by a group of young ph