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But on reflection, do you think you got 0rban wrong or do you think 0rban fundamentally changed? well, definitely changed. i mean, i think i am like i was. i still believe in liberal democracy and that hungary is a western country. fidesz party, under the leadership of viktor 0rban, started to change significantly from 1993. basically, 0rban, when he was elected as party president — it was in �*93 — he pulled the party to the right. i think it was a rather opportunistic move. he basically thought that he can grow bigger on the right than in the liberal centre. and it was fascinating to s...

Together with a lot of other people who thought that fidesz�*s original strategy was in the centre. and so i was more an observer ever since, regarding fidesz. but of course, i know many fidesz people even today. so i keep track of the party's development. and even fidesz... 0rban... 0rban could get to government. so he was successful in profiling fidesz as a right—wing conservative party. and he became a prime minister already in �*98. he did. he had one term. a coalition. and then, of course, he was booted out. exactly. and for eight years after that, the more progressive parties in hu...

You know, the other countries and the european political elite, conservative included, they have to figure out how to deal with the person who is not regarding liberal democratic rules as a norm. and that's an interesting point. do you think it is viable for you in the hungarian opposition — and i'm calling you part of that even though you're now more of a writer than an activist. do you think it's viable for you to take the position of telling the eu they should punish hungary by withholding massive amounts of economic assistance — and it could run into the tens of billions because hungar...

In demonstrating that hungary was a successful country — as it is. and it was very... i mean, it was very successful. hungaryjoined european union and nato in those years. so he was definitely a successful prime minister when he was in coalition government, but he still failed in 2002. and he made a very radical turn then, that time. he gave a big speech saying that we can't be in opposition because the nation cannot be opposition, which... in essence, he said fidesz is the nation. he wrapped himself in the hungarian flag. exactly. and my point to you is, when you say this man over the last ...

The thing is, what is the right response, then, for believers in democracy such as yourself? i have to be honest with you, i noticed that, in the arc of your career, you walked away from politics for a while, then you came back in 2012. of your career, you walked away from politics for a while, then you came back in 2012. you tried to establish a party called together. and if i'm not wrong, in 2018, when togetherfought in the election of 2018, i think you scored less than 1% of the national vote. and then you walked away from politics again and now you're in academia. so have you given up? uh,...