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Former assistant special watergate prosecutor and former assistant u.s. prosecutor for the southern district of new york. >> good to be here. >> one thing you caution democrats on is you say you've got to be very, very cautious about relying solely on a transcript. >> that's correct. >> why? >> because transcript arnce always reliable. the best evidence is all the underlying tape, if such a tape he exists. >> as far as we understand it doesn't. >> one of the things that house intelligence committee has to do is really button down whatever versions of this memo exists, whatever notes exist, the...

Before the break we heard part of a conversation between ken starr and joe lockhart. they applied what happened in the late '90s to what we're seeing today as president trump faces multiple investigations. with us now to discuss, cnn legal analyst carrie cordero. and john bale. carrie i messed that up both times. john sale is with us as well, a former assistant special watergate prosecutor, both of you very great legal minds. i'm happy to have you with us. ken starr offered the moral view of obstruction and the legal view, do you agree with that distinction? >> my first impression was, that it...

Why -- when he went on tv, he just felt like he had to let it all out and he said i fired him because i wanted to stop the russia investigation, because i think the russia investigation is a witch-hunt. there may be in some narrow, legal eagle place where that is an obstruction of justice. to the rest of us, it is the obstruction of justice on the face of it. >> but he didn't shut down the investigation. that's one of the key things. he could have said this investigation -- >> he then tried to remove and fired his attorney general. what else do you need to see that is obstruction? what else? w...

And there are a number of things like that that came up today, which are peeking our curiosity in a strong way. >> thank you both after a a long day for making time with us this evening. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst and both former assistant special watergate prosecutors. your expectations for today and where they today surprised you. >> i wasn't surprised today. i was found him to be a credible and calm witness. maybe i surprised how calm he remained under constant deluj of attack. i was a little surprised by how much documentation he had when john dean testified during

Applies to the president. would any reasonable person look at how the president is reacting and think this is an innocent person% who wants to end a groundless prosecution? no. he is sounding in the hysteria in his attacks on law enforcement, sounding like someone guilty and is scared. i don't know if he is, in fact, but the but that's the impression he's conveying. % if he feels free to act on that, then i think we're going to test the resistance of republicans that you can't do in the abstract. if he fires mueller, then i think the stuff's going to hit the fan and we will find out. >> john h...