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Can be questioned by mueller. i think the crime-fraud exception means that it wouldn't be privileged. and i think if not the first, either the second or third question will be jill's favorite, what did the president know and when did he know it? because the question is is there conspiracy here to obstruct. and it wouldn't simply be -- it's not even a pardon for quiet. here it's the sort of secret backroom deal as the potential issue, where the president, through dowd, is saying keep quiet, do exactly what manafort has done through these months and there will be a pardon at the end of the day. ...

Has done through these months and there will be a pardon at the end of the day. so tl that's more sinister and corrupt. because it means there's no political check, no way of bringing it up for impeachment. it's a backroom wink and nod. >> john dowd was reported to have quit the trump defense team. i said at the time, we have no idea. we don't know if he was fired, we don't know whether he quit. that's just the story. the story put out. >> yep. >> it may now be that john dowd was forced to leave the defense team because of this reporting that john dowd may well have known was coming out in the...