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Us. he's the washington bureau chief for mother jones. welcome, welcome to you both. >> glenn, i want to start with you. because, one of the key challenges for the committee, and frankly for the justice department to pursue a colonel case against trump, would in fact be proving that he knew his claims about the 2020 election were false. we know that donald trump is already laying the groundwork to make it hard to prove intent. he's got this statement that i won't even go into. basically, he blasted the committee and he again repeats election fraud fantasies. can you explain to folks at home wh...

Giuliani was admitted to the white house lawyers that he agreed with the white house lawyers that eastman's panel was unlawful. so there was a whole bunch of new things that came out of that hearing, and i think a lot of it speaks to corrupt intent in and out of the white house. >> speaking of corrupt intent, which is a judicial term. kyle, you wrote that thursday's hearing effectively amounted to a criminal referral by the january six committee. now, whatever answer testimony did you find to be the most damning? more specifically, what do you think the department of justice and the people tha...

Know when i ever prosecuted in years announced i engaged in a criminal act and have criminal intent. that's not how this works. there is so much evidence from which a jury could infer, that's how you prove intent, in for donald trump's corrupt intent. i mean just look at -- in public reporting and courtesy of the j 6th public hearings. we know donald trump recruited the insurrectionists. he said stand back and stand by. await further orders. he set the date for the capitol attack. january 6th will be wild. you launched the capitol attack by jimmy ainge up his angry mob and sending them to the ...

The united states, one element of a fraud case is dishonesty. if you truly believe what you're selling you're not committing fraud. fraud is where you're lying and actually one of the elements of conspiracy to defraud the united states is dishonesty. so that's one problem for the prosecution. as for obstruction of an official proceeding, that requires proof of corrupt intent. and similarly there that honest belief would help defeat that charge as well. >> i asked that question because i know you're paying close attention to the hearings. we're hearing from any number of witnesses firsthand or ...

Volleyball over the net to federal prosecutors. >> as a federal judge has indicated, this likely violated to federal criminal statutes. president trump had no factual basis for what he was doing. and he had been told it was illegal. >> he had been told it was illegal. it was not based on any factual truth about the world, meaning he did it and he did it with corrupt intent, which means it's prosecutable, in the view of january 6th investigation vice republican congresswoman liz cheney. in terms of what happens next year, the next january 6th hearing is not going to be tomorrow. it's going to b...