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Tape. he doesn't have anything to prove this version unless someone else will corroborate it. you have all these people lying or repeating lies they were told if cohen is right. >> that's the problem, erin. there's a credibility issue all around. >> the president is the father of don jr., who was involved. he allegedly worked on a letter. we don't know the extent of this. what he knew when. it's a credibility issue. it's about proof and how request you prove it? that's something we have to find out when he comes back. >> you know, you are right, and one of the problems here is michael cohen is...

Fixer, the man who was his spokesperson. you know, i don't know, but does that necessarily mean he lied for him? or does it mean he was just sort of his agent, in a sense, or someone who spoke for him? does that necessarily mean he has a credibility issue when it comes to lying? >> it means nothing. what it's going to mean is, you know, if he has a history of lying and they can document it, that could be a ding against his credibility. >> i'm just trying to think of, on the record, a concrete example of him lying. i mean -- >> well, i was thinking -- >> he has on tape that he would take a bull...

An incredible liar, who's got a tremendous motive to lie now because he's got nothing to live, says it. all of a sudden at the 11th hour. i don't think anybody believes that, chris. >> all right. well, we'll see, right? we'll see if mueller wants to take the meeting, if he wants to hear the -- >> i don't know why he wouldn't take the meeting. you want to hear it, but then the question becomes can he corroborate it? if he can't corroborate it, it's useless. >> you said he might not want this. >> he's going to want to hear it. he's going to be running around saying this, you want to hear what he...

For 40 years until i learned about it. >> he didn't give up his sources. >> that may be what's going on. >> so as i have been reminded, jim, that michael cohen did say he handled the whole stormy daniels thing on his own without knowledge of the president, and that turned out not to be true, how much damage can be done here to the president, jim, by michael cohen? >> well, it's a fair question. and listen, the credibility issue is a reasonable one, right? because you have evidence of misleading statements on both sides, right? certainly from the president's team and also from michael cohen in ...

Things small, medium and large, that's why the tweets are being relevant because he's been lying about this investigation. >> you can't make the case based on credibility issue. have you to prove. >> but that may be why you don't want him to testify. >> no, because i don't want him to be put up against liars. i don't want the situation he says the truth, three witnesses to corroborate him, but they recommend perjury, because one guya proven liar says the opposite. >> but he puts him in the same box. when he says no russian interference, he says it, and it's a lie. >> he hasn't said that. >> he...