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Nonpartisan experts to be narrow. so, matt, i think to build on that point before you move to the other issues, what does it tell us that mr. mueller is basically helpful to barr on the disclosure part, the transparency part but not the points that you and others have pinpointed that bill barr's statements mischaractered the report but the seeking of the disclosure was to clean up what people called criminal defense work for the white house rather than attorney general work. >> i doubt he would go that far and use those words. but i at the he is saying the attorney general mischaracterized my ...

Tapes, no tapes, there's tapes, tames but not about trump tower moscow. obviously, now he's telling cnn, i'm talking michael cohen tapes. they weren't about this, they were other conversations. what is going on? >> i really don't know. can you have the two theories, one is crazy like a fox. this is somehow intended to distract people from other things and create a circus-like atmosphere with making statements and retracting them. i tend to think it's not that. that deliberate and that it's just somebody who isn't asking the first question that you have to ask in defense work or really any lega...

President alleged to have committed perjury to keep the public from learning something that would be politically damaging and threaten his survival of president. it was thought he would have to resign when this came out. the defense you heard, on impeachment grounds was he may have committed perjury but this is over a private matter. it doesn't rise to that level. in an impeachment context, would that defense work here in. >> as you know having written a book about the '90, the impeachment issue is a public issue. it comes down to 20 republican senators. if we were impeached, whether or not he...

The gritty work, defense work, that the other attorneys must be going through. i think more than anything, rudy's out there, trying to put together a dialogue. the other thing, part of that dialogue i think is very important to point out is this. if he's saying, hey, we've been talking about sitting down for an interview, we've been talking about sitting down for an interview, i have scheduled these interviews with u.s. attorneys and here's -- i mean, it's just like what was just said. this is what i imagine that dialogue going. here are our demands, that is what we want. the mueller team's li...

And so they'll be ready and it will be interesting to watch. >> dan, i want to shift gears here, focus on another big story here. that is the new-found existence of a tape of a conversation between michael cohen and donald trump, centering on karen mcdougal, former playboy model. there is a threat i want to pull on. michael avenatti, an attorney for stephanie clifford, stormy daniels, saying michael cohen should hand over these tapes, the tape should be made available. your reaction to that, what michael avenatti is suggesting happen here. >> i think that has a lot of public appeal. but i thin...