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It's classic cold war, dirty diplomacy. >> you wrote in your book, your -- >> my father. >> he was part of a swap. >> my mother was russian. he was only allowed out of the soviet union in 1969 after six years of trying, because she was add d in the same kind of swap. nothing has changed since. that's the way the kgb men who run russia roll. >> luke, when owen is making the point that putin's strategy is to hope the west gets tired. i would say also the price pour the ordinary europeans, the energy hikes and all that, backs unbearable. >> i just want to follow up on that and say one of putin's ...

Sort of rather cynical russian view that we have something, you have something, we trade, and of course, it sets a precedent for ukraine. putin would like nothing better than to sit down with joe biden, decide the future of ukraine, decide the future of eastern and central as if it's the 19th century, with a map where they draw, you have this, i have this. and he thinks everything can be negotiated that way or it's a conspiracy. it's his classic kgb brain, and unfortunately this is an kgb moment involving alleged kgb operative who has been sitting in jail for 12 years. >> that image of them dr...