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If you are going to flip, you do it. now, i think we have the graphic of all the mugshots that we have an all the people who have been booked in this case. right? the question is, how -- will we know if someone is becoming a co-operator? are there external signs we should look for in terms of their the heavier, their meetings, their itineraries, if you will? >> i think there might be some signs. obviously, if a plea is entered, or a conditional plea is, that is something that would happen have to happen in open court. obviously, we talk a lot about how georgia allows cameras, unless the d.a. i...

Not giving a defendant a speedy trial. but it could prejudice the government. when >> gwen, when we talk about just the volume of codefendants in this -- there are, i believe, 18, and the former president -- the expectation has been that that number is going to get trimmed, whether maybe because kenneth chesebro's trial is one of, or someone flips. and i would love to get your thoughts on potentially moving some of these codefendants into the cooperating witness category. we were talking with andrew weissmann yesterday, and he said, this is the window when, if you are going to flip, you do it....

>> without surprise you if that were the case? >> no. i think that if mark meadows is smart, he will flip. because he needs to, honestly. he was at the center of a lot of what these indictments are, whether it is the classified documents, case whether it is january 6th, these fake electors scheme -- he was there and present. and so i think that he knows a lot. trump world should be really worried if he is cooperating, whether that is with the doj or in this fulton county, georgia case. and so, only time will tell. but mark meadows should know, as i do, having worked in trump world, trump deman...

A co-operator. he's had his own federal exposure, his own state exposure. what's going on? whereas mark meadows? >> hey, katie, you know the first thing i read was the actual coconspirator the -- i didn't read any description of mark meadows. i believe that he is probably, i think he's a massive part of this investigation. especially if he gave up his emails, which we saw a lot of, that also. i think people need to go back and read, it wasn't over 200-page violent by the january six committee concerning mark meadows. if you're talking about emails from individuals conducting the cyber investig...

Person trump leaned on to hear a legal advice from. and labeling meadows as a, quote, ringleader, adding his response from, meadows calling it useless, uninformed by facts, speculation. so, katie, where is mark meadows in this latest indictment? is he a co-operator? do we know? >> i've always said he is cooperating with the government. and part of this he's been laying so low, like completely low profile, he has not been out there. he's been parroting trump talking points that the trump acolytes and the sycophants to. number one, number two, we call that meadows has his own exposure on the sta...