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my company and other companies face is getting noticed. so i wonder what kind of things do the people have to suggest us to do to get our apps noticed in the app store or just in general publicity. >> this is interesting, right? he's talking about apps. the technology has changed, but the concepts are the same. he's marketing an app the same way you would market a doll or website or anything else. how do you market something that's new? how do you get people to know that? >> i would always encourage any business owner to get trained in media and to understand what it is and how to get out there and how to talk about your brand so every moment that you have in front of people matters. any time you're speaking at a speaking engagement, you're saying the right words so that translates into a conversion for sales. there's brand awareness constantly. and also getting people to write -- having bloggers. bloggers are powerful people enand apps in the tech world can be powerful. how do people write what your app is? it's just like any product.