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Ways than what barack obama did in the first six months. what does a winning message look like for democrats between now and next november? >> this is the most important question for democrats and i think we have to challenge ourselves. i think we were' been hyper confused over the course of the past five years. some of the time we talk about economic growth, some of the time we talk about economic fairness. i don't know whether we've won the economic fairness argument. that sounds like taking money from me to give to somebody else. people right now desperately care about growth, growth in wag...

And i think the appeal that a republican can make to democrats is this meets the fairness argument. because it is only the rich, it is the only the powerful who have the lawyers and accountants who can exploit these cutouts, and anybody can't use them. and i think by doing that, you're a -- that's the genius of the reagan tax reform. it is only an outline, so we don't flow know if it will end this way. you can probably cap the interest rate, because so many people demapend on it and the charity, which is very useful, because it is actually the only time the government weakens itself and streng...

And i think the appeal that a republican can make to democrats is this meets the fairness argument. because it is only the rich, it is the only the powerful who have the lawyers and accountants who can exploit these cutouts, and anybody can't use them. and i think by doing that, you're a -- that's the genius of the reagan tax reform. it is only an outline, so we don't flow know if it will end this way. you can probably cap the interest rate, because so many people demapend on it and the charity, which is very useful, because it is actually the only time the government weakens itself and streng...

>> that is definitely true. i think that in some ways you get a situation here where there's political hay to be made. what's interesting to me is there's a fairness argument being made by trump and it's the kind of argument that is pretty anathema to republicans. right? so the actual amount of money we're talking about, talking about the carried interest loophole, it's pretty small. it's not going to plug any huge deficits. it's not going to pay for a new social program on the grand scheme of things on the government balance sheet, it's pretty small. what it is, it's a fundamental populist ar...

Lower rates. >> that is definitely true. i think that in some ways you get a situation here where there's political hay to be made. there's a fairness argument being made by trump and it's the kind of argument that is pretty anathema. the money we're talking about is pretty small. it's not going to plug any huge deficits. it's not going to pay for a new social program on the government balance sheet it's pretty small. it's fundamental argument about fairness. and i do wonder whether from your perspective as a dyed in the wool conservative, someone who spends his time around conservatives, whet...