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Between them and the way that pence's talked about flynn since the investigation has broken over whether that is well understood or whether there's more to learn there. >> i don't think it is well understood. i mean, i certainly didn't realize until i did this reporting that basically there was a red flag that was being thrown when -- around flynn by christie when he ran the transition and that when pence took over what happened was actually it was -- ivanka trump turned to mike flynn in a meeting and christie was chairing it and didn't understand that flynn was even going to be there and sudd...

Trump, i think, was acting out of loyalty, loyalty because flynn had been loyal to her father and pence, whose job it was to vet somebody of that -- that incredible importance to america's security, it was just a fundamental role of running the transition, is to make sure that these people are, you know, reliable, even. and not crooks. and people i talked to felt he failed that very basic job and that was kind of a beginning of some of this whole, you know, investigation. >> and the beginning of the -- even the obstruction investigation pursuant to the -- after the initial -- >> yeah. because,...

That rally between pence and gillespie as only half filled. organizers expected around 1,200 people to show up but only about 600 people did. trump administration right now is being sued over stopping obamacare subsidies. they're being sued over daca. they're facing international pressure for disavowing the iran nuclear deal and for their handling of nuclear threats from north korea. in addition to all that stuff the trump campaign is under investigation from three congressional committees and the fbi special counsel for possible collusion with the russian attack on our election. that's an inv...

Associate trump likes to let pence know who's boss. a staff member from trump's campaign recalls him mocking mike pence's religiosity. he said when people met with trump after stopping by pence's office trump would ask them, hey, did mike make you pray?" quote, "during a meeting with a legal scholar trump belittled mike pence's determination to overturn roe versus wade. the legal scholar had said that if the supreme court did so many states would likely legalize abortion on their own. you see, trump asked pence, you've wasted all this time and enji on it. and it's not going to end abortion any...

Indiana, people having "fire pence" signs on their front lawns, having alienated all his allies, not just seen as super conservative but seen as essentially in some important ways very incompetent as an indiana governor, a state that has economic trouble before and beyond the additional economic harm that that sort of built in. >> he was incredibly unpopular. and it was almost a fluke that he was chosen. but yet it tees him up to make him potentially a president of the united states. you have newt gingrich saying he's a shoo-in to be the republican nominee whenever trump doesn't run. next. and...