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The more they can muddy things up, the better for them. >> isn't it true also that rudy giuliani is just one piece, he's the public piece. jay sekulow is on the president's legal team. there's a couple from florida on the legal team. emmet flood is involved. other people do the lawyering. >> rudy the clown. >> rudy is the fog machine, and that is the strategy. >> rudy is the public relations person. he's the person out there in front. >> but i think that we must -- >> can i make a quick point about -- >> hang on, harry, let me get to the rev and we'll finish with you. >> when you make the poin...

President's lauryn competence by design or is it just inco incompetence? you've got in mr. giuliani a guy who is constantly changing the story, and is that because he just doesn't know what he's talking about, or does that serve the interests deliberately serve the interests of the president to have this kind of fog machine out there, kind of throwing out smoke? >> i think there are moments where giuliani is more concerned about the public debate rather than perhaps being inside the private negotiations with mueller's team. but i think largely it is about the smoke machine, that the president ...

Going to be there in six months? will this house be complex actually support me in the ways i need? those are questions people are dealing with. they don't have time. they know i've been lied to and don't want to be lied to again. >> brittany is putting her finger on something important and essential to the president's strategy. essentially, create like a fog machine. >> right. >> onstage. i mean, it's incredibly difficult even for those in the news business to follow day by day, hour by hour every single twist in the mueller investigation. what's appropriate? what's not? what's a fisa court? ...

It didnoesn't appear the presid of the united states objects to the way rudy giuliani defends him. remember during the stormy daniels payment story of a couple months ago giuliani told a couple different versions of that story. he's the kind of guy, new york guy that creates this fog machine that donald trump likes. >> right, exactly. it's unclear whether there's any coordination going on outside of donald trump and giuliani. i think giuliani mentioned he had discussed this potential story leaking with jay sekulow who was a tv lawyer going out and being the pr person for the president last yea...

>> and he reupped his harshest attacks on sunday. putting other things in the fog machine that rudy giuliani likes to dominate. but do you think they'll be able to put to bed this tease and dance about an interview? >> at some point, they would have to. it seems like every day rudy is ruling out things he can be asked about. what they're using is the interview as a way to undermine the credibility itself. he's not going to sit down for an interview because this is not a legitimate investigation. and i think they're using the interview to take another whack and whack at mueller to try to underm...