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It really is this astroturfing, bottom up. when lies spread faster and further than facts on social media, so the information operations seeding a lie amid a narrative bottom up. in my case it was journalist equals criminal. and the same lie a year later top down from president duterte himself a week later we got our first subpoena, there were 14 investigations and by january 18 the first shutdown for rapler. it is all same methodology whether it is the philippines against me or whether it is stop the steal in the united states. >> you say that at the heart of the problem, the new problem of t...

>> it already is, stephanie. first, thanks for having me, but just listening to kind of, you know we've heard earlier, you doubled down -- that's exactly the kind of incentive structure our communications our information systems encourage. and it is not a surprise, that's the behavior that we see. >> so you've also witnessed what happens when there is a dissent against a dictator. we are having things happen here now a squashing speech, don't say gay. what's -- why is this happening, and what could it mean? >> well look, look at it this way, it's not particular forms a speech as much as the ki...

You know we've heard earlier, you doubled down -- that's exactly the kind of incentive structure our communications our information systems encourage. and it is not a surprise, that's the behavior that we see. >> so you've also witnessed what happens when there is a dissent against a dictator. we are having things happen here now a squashing speech, don't say gay. what's -- why is this happening, and what could it mean? >> well look, look at it this way, it's not particular forms a speech as much as the kind of behavior. and a lot about work in the philippines is focused on social media, on es...

That who aren't just fringe people is much, much harder today given our social media world and how this makes it more acceptable in certain corners. >> is it enough to say i condemn the violence, it was a brutal attack, it should never happen to anybody or does it have to go beyond that to condemn anyone, even your colleagues, powerful colleagues. condemn them if they spread that conspiracy. >> i'd sure like to see more of that. that's things that can happen publicly and privately. when i worked in house relationship, if a republican member quite often happened, go mer is an example. leadershi...

Or some other streaming outlets. they're not going on those things that have allowed members of congress who are in say their second term to be considered superstars as opposed to your daily committee chair or subcommittee chair who works hard, who can't get that notice, who can't raise that money and aren't political celebrities. >> i understand the incentive structure has got us to that point, but is there a fear among the people who are spreading these conspiracies that ultimately that danger, that violence can come from them or if they're not worried about it coming for them. are they worr...