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Same time. lemon endures. academics have thoughts about various options and alternatives, i know, and the justices themselves have expressed various and sundry ideas. as a judge of the lower court trying to do what the supreme court wants us to do, it's a bit of a challenge in this area. we struggle a lot. >> well, just as one citizen to another, let me tell i think it's -- unfortunately, the result is like chief justice rehnquist said, hostility to religious expression in the public square, and i think our country is poorer for it. let me -- my final topic at least for this round. let me ask ...

So lemon endures, and academics have thoughts about various options and alternatives i know, and the justices themselves have expressed various insundery ideas. it's a bit of a challenge in this area. we struggle a lot. >> just as one citizen to another, let me tell you, i think it's a morass, and unfortunately the result is like chief justice rehnquist said, hostility to religious expression in the public square, and i think our country is poorer for it. let me, my final topic at least for this round, let me ask you a little bit about originalism and texturalism. our mutual friend, brian garn...