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He pardon jack johnson, a black boxer who was convicted in a racist prosecution of taking a white woman over state law. no way of benefiting from that. and joe arpaio, that was not a great pardon, but he did it because he like sheriff joe and his immigration policy and he took care of them. in the case of scooter libby, people say this is sending a signaling about loyalty. and judith miller who was the person who testified that he had told her about valerie claims that it was that she was mistaken. so a lot of us think that president bush should have pardoned scooter libby and he did the right...

That goes through the department of justice where they make recommendations, my understanding is that donald trump is not listening to that. he is not even getting the names from that pardon process. that's why i say, it feels like it is more based on celebrity and famous people that he knew. i think that is weird. >> martha: he is definitely a person who operates that way to some sort of extend by gut, and he must've seen "the wall street journal" piece where blagojevich said when an investigation comes up empty with manpower, and you cannot prove the crime, they create one. and perhaps that ...

Johnson also just got a posthumous clearance from the president. it also goes to his impulse, i think, to deal with big names. and yes, of course, there's a big discussion we could have about how you use a pardon process and if he will use it to continue the work of what president obama did for people who are serving in these drug cases. >> let me get john briefly on one other piece of this. do you think that any of this could itself become a subject to mueller's probe? >> absolutely. i think that the way he's abusing the system, having taken the oath of office to uphold the constitution, and ...

Today. what's important here is that there is actually a pardon process in the department of justice that in normal times people go through. if you want a pardon, there's a way you can get one. but this extra process that the president is putting on where a film actor can call up and say pardon this person, or someone who's giving him legal advice can say pardon my other client. that's not normal. that's not how the pardon process is supposed to work. when you don't have a functioning pardon process, people will assume it's done for a bad reason. >> so, carrie, these are all real concerns but ...

So this is something -- on going. >> why tweet about it this weekend. >> because we're getting close to a second conversation on that front. >> so jeffrey toobin, you're a lawyer, do you see anything interesting or does anything raise questions about the timing of that tweet, the decision on scooter libby as the attention on michael cohen has gotten more intense? >> this is always the biggest challenge in law enforcement. which is to determine intent. what was the president 's intent? is it just a coincidence that he pardoned scooter libby outside of the normal pardon process in the department...