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An earlier century said, between the ideal and the reality falls the shadow. pete buttigieg has to look at the shadow, that is both self-reflexive and looking at the landscape of public policy. yes, be sorry, you have to talk about people whose interests are there, but you have to move from ideal to reality. >> a lot of people forget the ts elliott b side. we learn so much from you, sir, if it wasn't a tv show, i would be honored to call you and just hear you break all this stuff down from the poverty conversation, which is so important to your views on 2020, hope you come back soon, professor...

Choice neighborhood programs to address housing, crime and transportation, right, so that's the poverty question and the response was about neighborhood. i thought all right, i need to talk to mindy here because it was indication of a recognition that it is the structures. so when you think about neighborhoods sort of the place where poverty is, what's the story that you can tell us about how place impacts poverty? >> it's an important story. i think it's actually the one piece of the poverty conversation that's been left out. that is, that for 60 years we've had policies of destroying neighbo...

Families. he doesn't say these were poverty alleviations and republicans don't say you made a bunch more people poor. nobody said -- there's an argument on both sides. >> there was a small tone of that argument. i think what's interesting about it is if you look at 2008, president obama was saying, look, give me the benefit of the doubt to move this anemic economy and where we were. and that's really the decision that 5% or 6% are making, the independent group, and i would say it is bigger than that. if you look at the fact that spanish children are the highest group in poverty now, higher une...

You look at how many ways it can be curbed. >> you know what it's shaping up as, and i don't know if it will work because the group has so little political currency. but you're winding up having a punitive poverty conversation. we have congressmen on show saying, come on, cleeler, talking about 138% of the poverty level and 120%. you're still over 100% of the poverty level. the poverty level is $24,000 for a family. how meaningful is the traction of that conversation? >> i think it's meaningful in that you see republicans selling their partial repeal and replace bill the same way democrats sol...