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Key player in the cover-up. dean committed numerous criminal acts, encouraged people to destroy evidence, encouraged people to lie. there's no suggestion whatsoever that don mcgahn has done any of that. >> i'm just curious on your take on all of the behavior of the president and his team. if they're really not worried about anything and he's done nothing wrong, why go on the offensive against robert mueller? why launch such a brutal pr strategy to tear down the credibility of everybody involved? >> that's a great question. as trey gowdy said a couple of months ago, talking to the president's a...

I think it has been a lingering question if he's going to testify. that's been part of the pr strategy. that's not part of the legal strategy. that's been clear probably for several months, certainly in the last week or so. the president saying right there, write his report. he's setting up for what he intends to say is a system that's rigged against him. so why would he sit down with him? i thought he seems to be almost, you know, urging him to do it. there's no way i can see now he would sit down regardless of the narrow scope which they've been talking about. rudy giuliani has been talking ...

He talks about maybe revoking other clearances. all about who was there, who he blames for the beginning of the russia meddling investigation. then he gets into bob mueller, james comey, another one of the people on that list, if you will, and connects it all. again, i want to get to the security clearance issue, but when you listen to the president on the issue of the special counsel, i've never heard him more plainly give a hint that i'm done, don't think i'm going to answer questions, mr. mueller. >> yeah, i think it's become pretty clear that the president and his lawyers want to force mue...

June, when the whole thing is over, things might get cleaned up with some presidential pardons. we have seen giuliani go from denying collusion, to arguing collusion isn't a crime. making clear his job is to obfuscate and not to clarify. joining me now is joyce vance and betsy woodrow. is giuliani clownish in his role as his performance has been clownish. what is his role? >> i can't imagine we will ever see him in court representing the president of the united states. the sorts of arguments that he is making is really more of a pr

Is open to talking to mr. mueller under limited conditions but in a new development said mr. trump would not sit for an interview after september 1 because it would interfere with the midterm elections. here with us a former assistant u.s. attorney with the eastern and southern district of new york and sam stein is back with us, politics editor for the daily beast. sam, beginning with you because you can say whatever you wish. what are we witnessing? is this just letting it fly? >> can i say whatever i want? >> well, within reason i guess. >> probably not professional. it is letting it fly. th...