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during its weeks at the white house? i talked to a documentary filmmaker who told me it's not out of the realm of possibility there were certainly scores, if not 100 plus hours of film, we don't know. but considering the sheer volume, barbara, of what they have, what are we looking for? what might we expect? >> well, i doubt the committee would make such hay about this if they didn't believe there was something fruitful there. the last thing they want to do is to build up expectations and fail to deliver. so it seems to me they have previewed it and believe there's something important here. i think the key thing i would be looking for here are admissis by donald trump that he knows he lost the election. he has told repeatedly that he lost the election that would cause most people to believe he lost the election, and his plan to subvert the electoral count was illegal. but having trump say that out loud would be the smoking gun. i think that's what i would be

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

environmental lawyer, jeffrey clark, who was sympathetic to the conspiracies that trump and his allies were pushing. we know the stories about presidents pushing out department of justice officials. he likely knew that was something that would look bad and yet he thought about doing it anyway. what we'll likely hear is that many of these officials stood up to him in that moment and threatened to resign. another thing that would have looked bad. as we continue on in these future hearings and as the committee starts putting more meat on the bone than they already have, the focus will still remain on donald trump himself. >> ken and ali, thanks to both of you. i want to bring in matt miller who served as spokesman for eric holder and special adviser to the national security council in the biden white house. so, matt, let's talk about how unusual it was for the way

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

donald trump treated the attorney general and the department of justice compared to what has traditionally been the separation going back all the way, at least since watergate, since richard nixon interfered with the justice department with john mitchell. >> i don't think there's really any precedent, including watergate -- >> explain that. >> sure. so there is supposed to be a line between the justice department and the white house when it comes to criminal enforcement matters. there are things in which the president can talk to the energy and deputy attorney general and other officials. policy matters. other legal matters. but things that involve criminal or civil enforcement, the department of justice is supposed to be hands off from the white house except under narrow circumstances and those don't include matters that involve the president personally, as this election did. so for the president to pressure first the attorney general, then acting attorney general, the deputy, the acting deputy

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

new subpoenas have gone out to people involved in the false elector scheme including the person who was apparently served at his home outside of washington, d.c., which you know, the justice department has already confirmed they were looking into this and this is further evidence that the investigation seems to have expanded, which is what you would expect would happen. you know, it's a small window into this sort of vast universe of actions happening in that building behind me that we don't know a lot about and we're not going to know a lot about because it's a secret investigation. we know we haven't seen a lot of public evidence that the justice department are following some of the same leads that the committee is in terms of interviewing witnesses and subpoenaing witnesses when it comes to donald trump's corrupt alleged schemes to try to overturn the election. but in terms of this false

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

know about jeffrey clark and this visit by federal authorities to his home yesterday. >> it wasn't the fbi, it was a law enforcement agency which raises a lot of questions for me and we're still trying to report it out what this could be. regardless, it's an performance development in this investigation because as we know and we're going to hear more about today in this hearing, all the schemes that clark was engaged in to try to overturn this election involved the president of the united states, donald trump. he was in regular contact with the president. according to all these witnesses. and so the idea that law enforcement is at his door just really accelerates in my mind this whole investigation and raises questions about what else we're going to see in the comes days and how fast this thing is

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MSNBC Reports

message is breaking through more than republicans thought it might? >> yeah, i think donald trump is so concerned about this, because clearly outside of that fox bubble that he lives in, this is resonating, that this -- the viewership, the ratings, and we know donald trump pays attention to the ratings, has been off the charts. almost more viewers than the nba finals. america is tuned in to this, and it's seeping through. and the other part is, when we talk about that story you just referenced, how there are people inside trump world blind sided by this documentary and tapes, if kevin mccarthy hadn't talked away from the committee, when you have a committee, you have to share evidence. there would be no blind siding. every hearing there is a moment when people are going, oh, my god, we didn't know about that. that would have not have been the case if mccarthy had put his members on there. so after today, when pard ovrns return to the conversation and members of congress will get called out, they're going to be

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

you haven't committed any crime. we know that john eastman, trump outside lawyer, was trying to get on the pardon list, quote, if that was still available. he wrote that email that was illuminated in a previous hearing. we have information there will be conversations, that was the word that bennie thompson used, conversations today about members of congress and others seeking pardons. i think that clearly shows that there were some republican members of the house who were working -- who were conspireing with donald trump and others to commit crimes to overturn the election results and to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. i think these are very serious charges. these are very serious allegations. i think it shows, andrea, that here on the fifth installment of the hearings, the committee unveiled a blockbuster number of headlines and captured the public's attention and brought new information forward. >> you talk about new information. congressman kinzinger told

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

back now with msnbc special coverage of today's fifth hearing by the house january 6 committee. the panel has interviewed more than 1,000 witnesses as part of its sweeping investigation. we are joined now by former january 6 committee senior technical advisor and former virginia congressman denver rigleman. thank you for being with us. i'm not going to ask you about big foot, although i want to. >> we have had that discussion. >> let's talk about the committee. you worked closely with them. this is one that's focused on the doj and donald trump's attempted corruption of the doj. what will you be watching out for as somebody who works so closely with the panel? >> i think how many different forms of data they're going to use. you talked about the 1,000

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

elections, that could have changed the game because it would have lent an err of legitimacy. people were appointed by donald trump, stood their ground and did the right thing and refused to go along with this. in fact, threatened to resign if trump carried out his plan to replace jeffrey rosen with clark. and they headed it off. trump had to back down. that was a crucial moment in american history arguably and the people who are working there now, different people, some of the same career people, are very cognizant of the line held there and of the evidence surfacing in this hearing and i've reported that there are, there have been discussions inside this building, very preliminary discussions, about, and kind of, you know, not specific and kron concrete, about the notion of what happens if it ever comes to criminal charges against the former president and what kind of things would weigh into that

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The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates

i'm reading the transcript of what kinzinger said to garrett haake as to when that comes in. isn't white house counsel, cipollone, the key unheard voice here? a pardon request would go pardo go to the white house counsel before it would be forwarded to doj. he is refusing to testify publicly. >> yeah, pardon requests can go through the department of justice or through the white house and usually both offices are involved, but undoubtedly the white house counsel, pat cipollone, you are correct, would be a critical witness here. i agree with congresswoman cheney. we really need to hear his testimony. he obviously thought what donald trump was doing was unlawful, election fraud, unconstitutional, illegal, unpatriotic, un-american. he should say so. there's no reason for him to hide. >> jeremy bash, thank you so

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