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One source i spoke to who has seen the intelligence says he does not see the clear divisions between moderates and extremists that kerry suggested and he also said that members of congress will see some of this same intelligence later today when they get those classified briefings. chris? >> chris, thank you very much for the reporting. we bring in former defense secretary donald rumsfeld, the author of "rumsfeld's rules." thank you for being here. pleasure to have you. perception often reality in politics. i want to get your take, mr. rumsfeld, on what the president's two comments mean. year ...

Chance to read it but i saw the clip that you just showed. he mentioned the possibility of a judicial board of approval of some kind. i would personally -- we do that for some things now. a fisa board. we go to the courts and ask permission. i personally think going to the congress and discussing it with them and getting them onboard for some policy that makes sense to the american people so that he has that kind of support. he'll need it. >> let's talk about this book "rumsfeld's rules." first of all what do you say to critics who say they don't really have a great feeling about your leadersh...

Side of that argument but the idea that he is still in charge of the government, has accountability and has to project accountability as we ask all presidents to do. >> in the irs case it doesn't seem passive. wonderful king strauss of the wall street journal was correct. the president wasn't passive on that. he was giving final word to people who could launch this thing. >> in this scenario he's in a no-win situation. if he had gone into this faster, people would say he's intruding into a separate investigation. >> i have to take a break. i have a special visitor, donald rumsfeld, talking abo...

Executive branch, to be told about things that are going on that are bad. and you can't kind of say, oh, that happened last year and they're investigating. you need to stop the bad things right away. >> and the difficulty is this criticism of passivity, as you all are suggesting, and i'm challenging you with the other side of that argument but the idea that he is still in charge of the government, has accountability and has to project accountability as we ask all presidents to do. >> in the irs case it doesn't seem passive. i have to tell you. i think wonderful king strauss of the "wall street...

Came from then -- these are pure hypotheticals, how serious would that be? >> i think that the currency a president or leader has is trust. and as it's eroded away, it hurts. i think the president said he learned this from the press. and i think the press spokes mapp said the white house had known about it two weeks. >> eric holder didn't know what his department was doing at all, apparently. it's all a bit odd. >> he said he recused himself and i don't know why he did. >> there is no apparent evidence he did do that. they can't find the paperwork. it's all very murky. let's take a short break...