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"wall street journal." so grover, rome had high tax rates. >> not always. at first for about 400 years they had no real direct internal taxes because they looted their neighbors. >> we're not advocating that, right? >> we have talked to canadians. even that wasn't enough. so they started having dramatically higher taxes. the amount of money spent on armies. it cost more perhaps than they were able to extract. >> they started with tariffs. >> they had tariffs, augustus brought us the first death tax. cons tan teen, brought the income tax. all the stuff we're living with, they were thinking up. ...

What he will accept in these fiscal cliff debates? >> one of the great norquist tricks is a mass amnesia spell over washington. people have forgotten he laundered money for jack abram. he helped tom delay with a kfrnlts street prospect. he was' registered lobbyist for fannie mae. he was a tobacco industry hack throughout the '90s. folks have forgotten that. they take him pretty seriously. >> we used a stuffed grover doll on this set at one point. we are trying to take him as not seriously as possible. i appreciate so much, lee, the work you have done to help us see what grover norquist is. tha...

The reason that republicans are against these tax increases. it is rich people. so grover becomes the rich person or the person who is a representative of these rich folks. do we need to stay focused on where the real pressure is coming from. >> when norquist goes out and says, we need to cut government, cut subsidies but don't touch any of the tax credits, here is what he is really saying. what's the difference between a $1 million oil tax credit and a $1 million oil tax subsidy, nothing. they are economically equivalent. a tax cut can't be touched. if you do that, you are raising taxes. he i...

Little bit at this point would be great. that's where we get all these crazy figures about 93% of the wealth that was created over the last four years went to 91% of the people. the other 9% was left for the other 7% of the people. >> for everybody else? >> that's right. that's because of marginal tax rates. boehner doesn't have the votes on a marginal tax rate. >> the huge support for the president is when we look at public opinion polling, we see that 60% of americans support raising taxes on income over $250,000. >> eight of the ten wealthiest counties in the nation voted for obama. rich pe...

>> we need to be strong conservatives. >> are you concerned about the number of republicans who have started to move away from their pledge with grover norquist? >> well, this is what i would say. is that pledge that these members of congress signed, the pledge is not to grover norquist, the pledge is to their constituents. grover norquist is doing nothing but shining the light on them willing to break their promise. and we've seen what happens when somebody makes a promise, you know, george bush i broke his promise and lost, he lost his second term. so grover's doing nothing but shining the l...