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The next election that can win. >> joining me now, jonathan, editor of the bulwark, and tom ethical. staff writer at the atlantic. i was looking forward to this conversation, folks, this is gonna be fun, jonathan those polls out there showing the gop nomination is trump's to lose. but the general election is a different ball game here, so what is your thoughts on the republican base understanding that sticking with trump actually means they're not gonna win against biden next year? >> michael, i don't know that that's what it means, because this is the terrifying part, will hurd makes the argu...

Ron desantis who is floating this idea that if you become president, he will pardon trump. is this a missed opportunity for the sentence once again to carve out that space by the donors want him to carve out to go after trump? >> yes, it is. at this point desantis has been damaged goods. it's exactly what tom says. imagine if we are at the augusta beating trump decides not to show up. the moderator asks the republican candidates about the indictments against him. those republican candidates with the exception of chris christie are going to sit around and mouth the same defenses that trump hims...

And that, you know, ask chris christie what happens when you miss your moment. history presents its moments once to people. never twice. and it is a huge mistake. he should have gone for starting six months ago, ten months ago, and instead he was afraid of being on the wrong side of the republican base and maybe correctly. maybe he said this is a cold and i know i will never be able to shake people loose of it. so i'm just going to abide my time. maybe that is the correct judgment. but it doesn't mean that he's never really playing to win. >> not playing to win. and that is what the game is al...

Base that it seems to have largely checked out of this process to get them to check back in to eclipse trump. >> to be very honest i don't think that it is possible. there is a narrow chance of it, because we are an active god away, and donald trump is the old, he could have a health event as much as joe biden could, it is possible the next indictment will magically make trump unpalatable for some reason to voters. it is not worth giving up. i don't think anybody should ever give up. who passed has the last word. but you have to be serious about not laying a predicate that is going to make it ...

Those voters. they are all going to come home to me. that didn't happen in 2016, it's not going to happen now. if trump somehow implodes in the primary, and probably it would be a great opportunity for joe biden, but this notion that, you know, but for donald trump they would be flocking to tim scott, we're nikki haley, it is ridiculous. it is laughable. >> so you got that piece, tom, what about the legal troubles? they already started to overshadow the sum coming election. they are going to continue to do so as more and more indictments start to pop over the next few months. what does this me...