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Say to someone is say, like, they want -- you know, they don't want clinton values, they want biden values. i think that was about as deep a wound as you could inflict on somebody else. >> well, i mean, they're so opposite in how they present themselves in a lot of ways. joe biden is sort of the defense of authenticity, where hillary clinton -- >> still, that's why that goes so much deeper and i think shows a huge divide between clinton and biden, to say that. >> oh, yeah, i very much agree with you, and it's probably one of the reasons he's considering getting in, because he is a feeler. i me...