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>> i don't know if you will win or lose in terms of getting his legislation through that will end collective bargaining in wisconsin. the unions are playing defense which is not a good place when you're in politics. having said that. the public is beginning to take the other side, 60% are saying you know collective bargaining is a right. i think at the end of the day the governor went a bridge too par, governor walker, and made a big mistake and is wrong. >> he's being judged on style not substance. the issue is work rules. the example that i used to bring home was going on wisconsin. they hav...

>> well, we anticipated that they would try and get it on the ballot. that's been one of the things they've been saying all along. and i think it also is one of the reasons why they haven't negotiated, they haven't made suggestions, they haven't given us any input because they just plan on trying to kill it at the ballot box. we're not convinced they'll be successful. but the point here is we're trying to give management and taxpayers a level playing field to rye and control those costs and also more importantly, change the work rules. it's those work rules on the things that we can change thr...

Employees. scott walker is continuing to allow it over wages, but it costs too much to continue to have to bargain over work rules with these public employees. >> senator, let me ask you specifically. because i know you gentlemen are really, really involved in this and we as journalists are really involved. for the rest of the viewers who aren't, what part of collective bargaining is expensive to you? is it seniority, tenure for teachers? what's the thing that actually saves -- it's not expensive to sit and have negotiations. what's the expensive part? >> oh, the expense is you can't tell peop...

Disappeared. >> but our manufacturing out put is up. >> bill: but we're making it overseas so the people in wisconsin and michigan can't have those jobs. unless they want to move down to guatemala. >> they get new jobs, that comes back for new jobs, for new jobs to be created. >> bill: somewhat. >> in the recession it has been a job creating machine. >> bill: they were in the public service and tech sector, manufacturing is shot. you can make a good claim union labor killed manufacturing in the u.s.a., could you not? >> yes you could but not just the cost but the work rules. wisconsin, if you ...

Disappeared. >> but our manufacturing out put is up. >> bill: but we're making it overseas so the people in wisconsin and michigan can't have those jobs. unless they want to move down to guatemala. >> they get new jobs, that comes back for new jobs, for new jobs to be created. >> bill: somewhat. >> in the recession it has been a job creating machine. >> bill: they were in the public service and tech sector, manufacturing is shot. you can make a good claim union labor killed manufacturing in the u.s.a., could you not? >> yes you could but not just the cost but the work rules. wisconsin, if you ...