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Jail time. i believe it's at least five years. >> neil: what do you think? >> president trump says one thing publicly, that he is not going to fire mueller. that he's not going to fire rosenstein. he clearly is saying different things to the white house staff, because that's being leaked all over washington. >> neil: if you are donald trump, knowing as you do, wouldn't he be less inclined to think about it? >> correct. this development probably just reassures his staff that does not want him to fire rosenstein. >> that and all of the people in congress that don't want him to fire rosenstein. >...

Why? because the president doesn't know how to tell the truth. if you are the outside world or enemies or they're worried that the president lies or can't stick to a story. it's hard to say it's an effective leader or commander in chief for the nation. and this is just consistent with the narrative that's being sort of exposed, unfortunately, to the outside world as well. >> garrett, president trump claims he is -- he has nothing to hide, even as the guilty pleas from his campaign associates are piling up here. why wouldn't he -- why wouldn't he sit down with robert mueller? >> well, i think h...

So, if i was the president, i would take heed looking at that specific instance and be very, very concerned and very, very cautious. and i certainly wouldn't talk to robert mueller and his team unless i absolutely had to. why would you? who cares about the optics. >> martha: the president may >> maria: he may not legally have a choice to sit down. >> harris: why wouldn't he have a choice at this point. >> maria: i don't think they will legally compel him but he can be. there is a precedent for sitting down with special counsel. >> harris: how did that go? >> lisa: who cares about the political...

Lawyers have been counselling participation and cooperation. that's what they have been pushing, especially some of the president's outside friends and circle of advisers disagree. there would be a sense if the president refuses to sit down in the court of public opinion perhaps why wouldn't he. he says this is a witch hunt. what he's so worried about? >> let's talk about paul manafort's court appearance today. trying to swab his investigation. does manafort have a case at all? >> it's an interesting legal argument. he's essentially say iing that e special counsel operating under regulations, ...

For corrupt purpose, then he is exposed to that. i don't see any basis for saying the president doesn't have to answer in the criminal justice system. >> if the president believes that this investigation is trumped up, that mr. mueller's investigation is out of control, then why wouldn't he offer pardons? >> he may believe that. he may also believe it's out of control because he fears for himself, because he is concerned about his own exposure. it is precisely that element of self protectedness that threatens the legality of the offer of the pardons, that brings that into question. >> there's ...