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Fossil fuels to clean energy. it would clean the air by 50% a a -- according to the plan. joe manchin's opposition to this program isn't that surprising, but a spokesman for the "new york times" says, senator manchin has clearly used his concerns to pay for doing things they're already doing. regardless of the reason, manchin's position is bound to create new headaches for the administration as democrats work to finalize this spending package. joining me now is yamiche alcindor. thank you for coming on. it's a pleasure to be with you.

That senator manchin, obviously, has a very big role to play on this, and so we're continuing to push for the strongest possible climate protections that will allow us to bring down carbon emissions. and we're open to that negotiation as long as we have strong climate protections that bring down carbon emissions. >> the clean energy program in question aims to replace many of the nation's coal and gas-fired power plants with wind, solar. manchin argues the program isn't needed because his state is already moving towards clean energy. but two west virginia climate experts i just spoke to today ...

Going to have to be cut to your point about doesn't add up. there's going to be necessarily parts in there build back better that have to be cut. we can start reducing the years from ten to whatever to make it work. the president made it clear -- >> neil: that wouldn't make it work, right? if you were astute enough to say it's hard for any member of congress to remove a popular program to make a three-year program a four-year program, doesn't mean that that program isn't going to be on the books for many years to come, right? >> that is true. but in terms of this congress, i think the intentio...

Trillion in spending, leaves $1.5 trillion gap. the president likes to argue this spread out over ten years triggers economic growth that pays it out. it would be a first for any federal program to do that. the battle back and forth on this as to whether they can come up with a more presentable or certainly acceptable figure to moderates from the 3.5 trillion number we're hearing right now and a guy they have to con convenience is my next guest, emanuel clever from missouri, house committee on finance services member. congressman, he says this is fully paid for. we don't even know what is in i...

I think this is perhaps an indication. also, a really successful revival to people liked "roseanne," they like it now, too. >> you have that look, george, of like, am i really having to comment on roseanne barr? there's no doubt you were a big fan back in the day. >> if the program isn't on the major league baseball network, i don't see it. but like margaret mead among the samoans, the anthropologists of hollywood venture among the lost tribes of america and they discover these. they discovered archie bunker in queens. he was the reagan democrat at the time. if this makes money, it will change...