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This discussion. does the white house have any standing to tell the house democrats, take your concerns elsewhere? we're not going to participate? >> well, they can say that. i think the question really is, what can the house then do in reaction? first of all, it looks bad, this is a president who as we've been just discussing, how can you say i'm innocent i've done nothing wrong, this is a witch hunt but i'm not going to cooperate in anyway. he's been doing that the same way he wouldn't sit down with mueller for an interview, and yet he has nothing to hide. >> no clougs. >> he's mentioned tha...

That before, but i think that's a really intriguing clue as to why trump has not released his tax returns. you know, everybody thinks, you know, there are all sorts of reasons, but if he's been getting refunds from the government, multi-million, if not billionaire, that wouldn't sit well with voters. and that could well explain one of the biggest mysteries of the trump presidency. >> although i think those are the people who most often get the biggest tax refunds. so, look, could there be things there? yes. it's all going to be about getting the facts. now, laura, you are the lawyer here. howe...

>> which i want to bring up. first, the trump foundation. you know, he has this testimony, amazing testimony, about this $60,000 painting that trump wants, a portrait of himself, and he has a fake bidder bid on it at a hampton auction, he uses the foundation to reimburse the fake bidder and he takes it for himself. clear-cut abuse of a tax-exempt charity. the other one is his tax returns. nobody's really talking about that, but there was a nugget in cohen's testimony about how cohen -- about how trump showed him at one point about a $10 million irs tax refund that trump got in 2008. now, we've...

Influencing elections simply by trying to extend the mueller clock all the way to november if trump himself is not on the ballot. but it's a combined strategy. i think ultimately, this is a game where donald trump knows that the end result here is a political process, and he cannot run the clock out on the court of public opinion because it does not have deadlines. >> professor dershowitz, at what point would mueller's team subpoena the president to appear before a grand jury if the negotiations fail and they chose to do that? >> well, that's going to be a hard decision on his part because if ...

Mind. >> doing a fantastic job. >> this independent streak could be part of who this mysterious first lady actually is. >> i'm very strong. people, they don't really know me. people think and talk about me like, oh, melania, oh, poor melania. don't feel sorry for me. i can handle everything. >> jake, our colleague don lemon talking to lebron james, he bonn said he wouldn't sit down across from the president of the united states and the first lady is open to sitting down and visiting the school if the dialogue is about children and children education and positive aspects of it so we'll see if t...