Transcripts For CSPAN2 Relocating U.S. Embassy In Israel To Jerusalem 20171110

Lawmakers at a house subcommittee hearing relocating the us embassy in israel. Committee unnecessary will come to order without objection will declare a recess at any time. In 1995 Congress Passed the Jerusalem Embassy relocation act which states that jerusalem is the capital of israel but to remain an undivided city that the American Embassy should be relocated from tel aviv to grossmont. Yet for more than 20 years us president had signed waivers forestalling the embassy move. To this day, 50 years after the liberation and reunification of jerusalem, the state of israel one of americas allies is the only nation in the world in which the American Government refuses to locate its embassy in the host nation chosen capital. The candidate for president , donald, promised to move the embassy to islam and he has reaffirmed their commitment since taking office. There are good reasons why the president will follow through with this commitment. For one thing us policy should recognize jerusalem as israels capital because the home has been the capital of the jewish people for thousands of years and is the beating heart of modern israel. Why should we reject the chosen capital city of a close ally second, israels stewardship of jerusalem holy site has been tremendous especially regarding religious freedom. During the era of occupation of the old city of jerusalem between 1949 in 1967 jews were systematically discriminated against and christians were treated a second class citizens. Most of the old city synagogues were destroyed or desecrated. Under is really 70 religious freedom is the rule and the holy site christian, jewish, and muslim are treated with care and respect. The disrepair that plagued jerusalem under arab occupation has given way to pershing city that is one of the world ground jewels. Third following through with commitment to move the embassy will demonstrate american leadership. Leaders in the middle east respect the strong force and acting with decisiveness to defend American Interest in standby a close ally is far more profitable to defaulting on a key promise like past leaders have done. Fourth, the embassy can be relocated to one of the sites in jerusalem that the us already controls. This can be as simple as changing the sign in one of the existing complex. For example, [inaudible] could be a sizable, to provide Adequate Security that the annex in [inaudible] straddled the 1949 armistice line also counsel in his favor as a potential site. The Trump Administration has delayed moving the embassy in light of its efforts to pursue a peace deal between that palestinian arabs and their incremental steps, and ministration take in the meantime. The state department to allow americans born in jerusalem to list jerusalem israel and on their passports. The Us Ambassador should make a point to conduct at least part of its work week from jerusalem. The american consulate in jerusalem should report to the American Embassy in israel, not directly to the state department. Some say the us cant move its embassy to jerusalem that would and range elements of the socalled arab street and provide a pretext for acts of terrorism. Knows that may be true but does it make sense to shirk from doing what is right for fear of what our enemies might do. With the advent of the Trump Administration the us israel relationship is probably stronger than it has ever been. Our countries have shared security interest, common cultural ties and mutual beneficial economic relationships, relocating them see jerusalem especially if done in 2017 the 50th Year Anniversary of jerusalem day will make the relationship that much stronger. I want to welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses here today and we look forward to hearing your testimony and im here to recognize my friend the Ranking Member for five minutes. Thank you for holding this hearing. It is my understanding that todays hearing will include examination of the National Security challenges related to the immediate relocation of the us embassy from tel aviv to jerusalem and to this end i like to thank all of our witnesses for appearing before the court today to help us with their work. Thank you, gentlemen. Our strong and enduring bilateral relationship with the state of israel is found on general bounds and kinship that are unshakable. These profound and longstanding ties with our conditional regional ally are reflected in our unwavering commitment to israels security, as well as robust us cooperation on the range of critical issues, economic, intelligence and defense matters. We also afforded maximum respect to the historic and religious significance of jerusalem and its holy sites to israel. I do join the german in my own experience and with many of the Committee Colleagues having been to jerusalem on many occasions appreciate the religious freedom that is available now in jerusalem and weve taken full of usage of those opportunities to spend time with our friends in jerusalem and enjoy the wonderful, wonderful benefits of that city. Its a proposal to unilaterally and immediately locate the busy to jerusalem presents a specific question of whether such action would truly protect and preserve us, israeli and Regional Security interest. I am strongly concerned that we must proceed with caution that a decision unilaterally by the Current Administration to simply disregard the position of other regional partners on this matter that have been expressed by the governments of jordan and egypt and other regional arab nation partners will prove ultimately detrimental to us, israeli and Regional Security interests in the near term. In february of this year king of dollars of jordan reported to members of the house for queers 20 that moving the us embassy to jerusalem now unilaterally would threaten the two state solution and could lead to a quote violent escalation in the israelipalestinian. The government of jordan has also publicly warned that such action could have catastrophic ramifications on regional stability and would mark a red line for jordan. I would note that we recall that jordan is a key us Coalition Partner including with israel in counting and encountering the Islamic States operation is included aircraft in support of resolve in syria and iraq as well as the deployment of jordanian Ground Forces and special operators to Islamic State fighters along the syrian and jordanian borders. We also are working with the jordanian government as it is provides care for over 660,000 Syrian Refugees to date. In a cautionary note Foreign Ministers of egypt and another Regional Security ally protecting the interest of israel and the United States and democratic interest in the region has called the proposed immediate Embassy Relocation a very inflammable issue at this moment and asserted that this is one of the final status issues that has to be addressed between the two sides. It needs to be resolved through negotiations with respect to the palestinians. Egypt is an official member of the Global Coalition to defeat the Islamic State. Moreover about 700 troops and i had a chance to visit them in sinai, fairly recently, are currently stationed in egypts Sinai Peninsula as part of the International Peacekeeping force and that partners with the egyptian territory to stabilize the region against insurgents against the sinai promise and other militant organizations, including jihad. The statement submitted to our committee for this hearing ambassador [inaudible] investor to israel under president george bush and ambassador to egypt under president clinton note that the immediate relocation of the us embassy would not only cross a red line for the palestinians but also for many arab and Muslim States including those who we share friendship and Regional Security interests. Ambassador additionally explains that the if the nics were to engage in unilateral action on this central disputed issue we would substantially undermine her ability to persuade the parties themselves to avoid from doing so. I ask unanimous consent that the statement of ambassador [inaudible] be entered into the official record. Without objective. In essence, i am just advising caution that we consider the regional including the Israeli Security interest on this issue and that we give respect to allies in the region. Again, moving forward but proceeding with caution. With that, you expect that your notes the presence of a number of our colleagues and we have a gentleman from ohio, mr. Jordan, the gentleman from florida, mr. Ross, the gentleman from new york, mr. Sullivan, [inaudible]. I ask unanimous consent that these members be allowed to participate in todays hearing and without objection it is so ordered. I am pleased to be able to introduce a stellar panel of witnesses here today. We have ambassador john bolton, senior fellow at the American Enterprise institute and chairman of the foundation for American Security and freedom. Ambassador dori goal, president of the Jerusalem Center for public affairs. Mr. Morgan klein, president of the Zionist Organization of america. Doctor michael ouppercaseletter, policy director at the Israeli Policy Forum and mr. Eugene [inaudible], professor of law at northwestern university. I want to welcome you all for pursuant to Committee Rules all witnesses will be sworn in before they testify so if you could please rise, please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to the test when you are about to give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so hope you got witnesses all answered in the affirmative and investor gold has affirmed that he will tell the truth, as well. So, you can be seated. I know, i know. In order to allow time for discussion please limit your testimony to five minutes. Your entire reinstatement will be made a part of the record and as a reminder the clock in front of you shows your remaining time. The light will turn yellow when you have 30 seconds left and read when your time is up. Please remember to press the button to turn your microphone on before speaking. With that, id like to recognize ambassador bolton for five minutes for his Opening Statement. Inc. You very much, mr. Chairman. We appreciate the opportunity to before you today to discuss the important subject of moving the American Embassy in israel to jerusalem. I believe that recognizing jerusalem as israels capital city and relocating our embassy there on incontestable he is really a sovereign territory would be sensible, prudent and efficient for the United States government. Indeed fully regularized in the american diplomatic president s in israel will benefit both countries. Which is why worldwide the us embassy in virtually every other country we recognize is a host countrys capital city. We relocating the embassy will not adversely affect negotiations over the status or the broader middle east Peace Process nor would it impair art somatic relations among family arab or muslim generations. In fact by honest recognition of reality shifting the embassy would have an overall positive impact for Us Diplomatic efforts. Over the years as with so many other aspects of middle east geopolitics a theological and totally classicism has developed here and abroad about the impact of moving the empty. Now as in fact the ideal time to initiate the longoverdue transfer. It stands to reason that americas diplomatic point abroad should be located near the seat of government to which they are accredited. Proximity to political leaders, major government institutions and represented as a domestic Political Economic and social interest all argue for the common sense decision that us representatives through a foreign state should be at that state center of government. There may be logistical reasons for temporary deviations from this principle but there is no compelling diplomatic business region to waste nearly 70 years, as has been the case in israel. Given israels geography certain key institutions such as the ministry of defense are located in tel aviv which means that legitimate considerations will dictate that a us embassy next should remain there. Cost, efficiency and effectiveness considerations also compel the conclusion that the bulk of our embassys personnel should follow the example of their colleagues in virtually every entire rest of the world and be moved to israels capital. Modern transportation and Health Medications capabilities in our city, distance still imposes cross and resources, not with aggravation on our diplomats in israel. Moreover there is still no substitute to personal contact, facetoface medication and easy accessibility to times of crisis with key host government officials and political leaders. Moreover security concerns especially in the volatile middle east are always major factors in decisions to move existing pneumatic facilities to locations with an existing capitals where physical conditions are better suited to address contemporary risk assent states are argue for relocation there are obviously a number of political arguments to the contrary. I think there are three basic. I think its imp International Status were. The arab state shortly after it was passed and lets face it that resolution was rejected by does make 181 is a complete dead letter today. Jerusalem will never be an international city. We need to move on from it. Anthony, the Russian Federation acknowledges earlier this year. The second argument is that it will break the broader middle east Peace Process and i say if the Peace Process is such a delicate snowflake that moving our embassy would destroy it and if you have to ask what its viability is and it is also to ask for cost. Wants to demonstrate against the United States and they can pick a lot of pretext, as well not just moving the embassy and to conclude, mr. Chairman, we hear over and over again that we want to move the embassy but the time is just not right. As i say, the state department they only ask the press one key other computers to spit out the phrase at this particular delicate point in the middle east Peace Process and in diplomatic circles that mr. Chairman, not now too often means not ever. We should reject that counsel and move the American Embassy to israels capital city. Thank you thank you, investor bone. Ambassador dori gold, you are up. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the sub, i commend you for holding this hearing. It is my view that President Donald Trump has made a commitment regarding the transfer of the us embassy to jerusalem and i believe he will stand by what he has said. Indeed on june 1st the white house released a statement stressing that with regard to moving the embassy quote the question is not if that move happens but only went on to. The us, of course, will consider many factors when making a decision. What is often overlooked in the debate about the location of the us embassy is why it matters. The embassy question is a subset of a much more important issue and the need for western recognition of jerusalem as israels capital and that recognition is vital for several reasons. What i would like to discuss is the international interest. That interest concerns the protection of holy sites and ensuring complete freedom of access to them. Religious freedom and pluralism are core values which both our countries share. Protecting jerusalems holy sites responsibility to the state of israel assumes in law back in 1967 when jerusalem was reunited after the sixday war. Before etched into the collective consciousness of all of us is what happened to jerusalem when we were absent and when we were barred from that city and what has happened to the holy site since 1967 since israel unified jerusalem and protected access for all peoples and faiths, what is clear from a brief survey is that only a free and democratic israel will protect the holy site of all the great traits in jerusalem. Let me stress that to the extent the us reinforces israels standing in jerusalem it is reinforcing core american and western values of pluralism, peace and mutual respect. It is reinforcing the position of the only International Actor that will protect the site. Even today the it is surprisingly argued in certain diplomatic circles at the point of reference for any political solution on jerusalem should be or could be Un General Assembly resolution 181 also known as the partition plan. This resolution called for establishing an International Entity around jerusalem which called for corporate soprano. I think ambassador bolton made the point well. This resolution is a dead letter. After 1949, for example, after the un failed to protect the old city of jerusalem for invading armies our Prime Minister in december of that year stood in front of the [inaudible] and talked about the corporate [inaudible]. David bengurion reminded his listeners that the un did not lift a finger during 1948 and he said that jewish jerusalem couldve been wiped off the face of the earth had it not been for the newly created Israel Defense forces in the pre state of military formations. Bengurion then addressed International Organizations and putting him from 1949. We cannot today regard the decision of 29 november, 1947 as being possessed of any further moral force. Since the United Nations did not succeed in implementing his own decision and our decision is null and void. International and internationalization is not an option. Press forward several years after the signing of the agreement. In july 2000 the [inaudible] became known as the [inaudible]. Religious sites were specifically targeted. In december 2000 in bethlehem operatives and palestinian assaulted and 13 armed [inaudible] forcibly entered the church of the nativity in bethlehem, the birthplace of jesus at one of the holiest site in christianity. Violent attacks on josephs tomb and nazareth were common at the scene at the same period. In jerusalem, the Key Organization that represented radical islam was called the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement. It was an offshoot of the mother and brotherhood. Its leader falsely accused israel of endangering the [inaudible]. Convening rallies under the banner that [inaudible] was in danger inciting violence and hatred with his lies. Let me conclude with the following remarks. Jerusalem must not be left to the vagaries of the middle east. What we see is that religious sites are under attack across the entire region, from the famous attack of the tele man on the 2000 yearold buddha in afghanistan to Coptic Orthodox Church is in egypt, to the religious sites of the is iraqi christian museums in iraq. There is a regional assault going on against holy sites and its underway the whole area. Israel deserves support as it defends jerusalem for these kinds of results. As i said earlier, only a free and democratic israel will protect jerusalem for all the great face. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, investor gold. Thank you. First of all i have to say i have tourettes syndrome and i may make sounds i cannot control. Its a disorder and my father gave it to me and i always think for it. [laughter] the us should move the embassy to not only because of the [inaudible] because its a law. The lane implementation sends the message that islam is throughout works. Moving the embassy will strengthen American Security and enhance worldwide respect for america by demonstrating it to keep her twins for alice. It will not, do not be integrated by appeasing radical threats. We allow us policy to be determined by terror threats we have only encouraged such that and more such care and undermine the us campaign to eradicate radical islamic terrorist is really controlled jerusalem is critical to security and all of jerusalem and moving the embassy will not in israels relations with egypt and jordan and saudi arabia are strong today because of strong mutual concerns and interests and threats to iran. Moving the embassy will not treat us. Jerusalem embassy act waiver position and should be used for 22 years. The waiver was not intended to be invoked repeatedly or for policy disagreement but only for a serious security emergency. Senate majority leader bob dole said that the president cannot be woefully and woke because its better to move at a later date and if the waiver were to be waived by a president i would expect said told that congress should remove the waiver authority. By the way, they told me the president to never use it once or twice, at the most. We havent moved embassy for 22 years and yet we are further from peace today than we were 22 years ago and not moving embassy did not help. Pieces of possible solely because of the palestinian arabs refusing to accept them within the border [inaudible]. They are continuing to pay arabs, pay arabs to murder jewish people. It is an outrage. The regime we are talking about and in addition they now directed terrorist groups and this is the real intention. This is the emblem of the fossa party of the party. You see it all over and the arch terrorist. These are the types of posters they put up in schools, universities and high schools showing and honoring, killers and murders of innocent people. For untrained print for for and the only place the middle east with its population is growing is in israel and not just any control, 60 percent of the christians left because of repression and palestinian controlled 80 percent of the christians left. Mahmoud abbas, the president made it clear that he would settle religious sites by regulating the astonishing states and a final resolution that we will never see a single israeli citizen in our land. Jews and christians have suffered greatly, now their sites are under pacontrol. Jerusalem has been the capital , never any other regime or country. I now turn to all rarely mentioned fact. Jerusalem is not very holy to muslims. They have not treated jerusalem as holy when they controlled it. During control of jerusalem, they allowed the two become a slum. Built its universities in and mom, not journalism. They broadcast their prayers not in jerusalem. In the koran, jerusalem is never mentioned. In the holy books its mentioned 700 times. But abbas and others claim mohammed flew from jerusalem to heaven. Let me just say jews say jews when they pray, the muslim faith. When it was under our control, not a single arab visited. Was so holy, why didnt they visit . It belies their claim to holy status. The minority leader has stated move the embassy of jerusalemnow. Joe biden at the time, future Vice President said quote, movingthe us embassy to jerusalem will send the right signal , not a destructive signal to the hands of those who will deny us the full attributes of statehood. The only way biden said there will be peace in the days is for the airlines to know there is no division , bank you without objection, its so i dont think he would want a recorded vote on it. Chair recognizes doctor koslow for five minutes. Thank you mister chairman and members of the committee, for the invitation to appear before you this discussed the issue of moving the embassy to jerusalem. At the title of this hearing notes, there are both challenges and opportunities in moving the embassy from its Current Location in tel aviv and makes this issue particularly thorny. The calculus at hand is the issue of fairness against potential harm to American Security and diplomatic priorities. Moving the embassy to jerusalem would rectify a historic wrong of locating the American Fantasy in a city that is not a israeli declared capital. Israeli rights are not in dispute yet israel is the only country whose capital is unrecognized. The presence of foreign embassies in tel aviv fueled the fear among israelis that the sanctity of their state will never be acknowledged. Moving the embassy supports the notion of fairness. Maintaining the embassy in tel aviv to remain in line with the rest of the International Community is not the only reason to do so. There should be no ambiguity about israels true capital. Nevertheless there are damaging National Security implications if the embassy is moved to jerusalem. It is for these reasons that every president has declined to move the Embassy Since the act was passed and it should be weighed seriously. There are three primary considerations for keeping the embassy in tel aviv. The first is to prevent unnecessary violence. Jerusalem is potentially the most sensitive geopolitical site in the world and movement damages security in fundamental ways. The violence committed against israelis including the second and fifth intifadas are often sparked by fears irrespective of whether they are unfounded about a change in jerusalem status quo. There is no way of knowing with her moving the embassy to jerusalem will result in riots or violence but the danger of mass demonstrations protesting the moving israel, the west bank and muslim majority countries will be high. This could affect not only the safety and security of israelis but all the so the safety and security of diplomatic personnel around the world. While extremists should not be granted the role as spoilers, the us should do what it could to avoid harm to its personnel. The second reason is to safeguard the interest of other allies. Jordan and egypt are sensitive issues around the Palestinian Conflict and jordans treaty with israel recognizes its historical knowledge. Moving the embassy risks unrest in these countries and will make it more difficult for their government to cooperate with the United States. Moving the embassy will put further strain on the piece treaty with egypt. Finally, moving the embassy now will damage any israelipalestinian Peace Initiative the Trump Administration is planning to unveil along with an arena by this administration or any successive one. Moving the embassy at the beginning of a Peace Process rather than at the culmination will make a two state solution which is a longstanding american policy of the government harder to achieve. It will so palestinian distrust as an honest broker and may leave the palestinians to reviews one of the final issues being prejudged. Moving embassies should be done in the context of the negotiating process and in keeping with decades of american policy and should not be done in the aftermath of a stalled negotiation. In this instance what is a fair policy is not the same as a prudent policy. Anything in the embassy status must be weighed against the consequences that may occur to the embassy be able relocated to jerusalem at this point in time, thank you mister chairman. The chair now recognizes the professor for five minutes. Mister chairman, Ranking Member lynch, members of the committee, thank you for having a hearing today. My written testimony deals with issues involves the structure of waivers under the act so im going to forgo those issues in my comments right now and focus on the objections to moving the embassy because it seems in a kind of diplomatic version of on existing sprayer, everybody agrees the embassy should be moved, just not yet. Im going to focus on those, just not right now. The arguments focus on certain practical concerns whose existence or realism cant be proven and so they are in effect unfalsifiable but one interesting thing about the argument for not moving the embassy, security arguments, is they have not changed in the 20 something years since the acts passage despite the radical change in the security in the region. In a sense, they are entirely unresponsive and invariant to political development. They can be summarized like this. Dont move the embassy until the palestinians and jordanians say its okay. Dont move the embassy until they agree. This follows american policy, this whole statute object to veto and the waiver by third countries. No geopolitical conflict and no dispute do we give parties, do we give neighbors a waiver on where the us embassy should be. That is to say maybe pakistan and india would like the embassies to those countries be somewhere else but we dont ask them. Its not surprising that supporters of the palestinians, and accounts their arguments in National Security terms, that is to say implied rights of violence. Under the terms of the statute, the only reason for not implementing it is National Security. The only permissible waiver is National Security. Not surprisingly we come here a National Security threat from the jordanians and palestinians. Thats they are in a sense shoehorning their Foreign Policy and political concerns into this justification. Its not surprising that such threats continue to be made because the authority finds that such threats work. They continue to keep the us embassy from being moved. This means waving the act based on such threats in fact invites further threats, waiver creates its own predicate. I should point out the security arguments have been significantly undermined by recent developments in the region. The security garments were made when the act was first passed 20 years ago and they continue to be recited as if nothing has changed. The sunni states and in particular saudi arabia are literally at war with iran. They cannot afford a risk to the United States. The notion that saudi arabia would endanger itself , it just shot down yesterday and iranian provided missile with a Patriot Missile battery. The notion that what it would endanger the air security of rihanna over the embassy issue is preposterous. The notion that jordan would expose itself to isis threats is preposterous. So theres been a fundamental realignment in the arab world. 20 years ago when people said the era street was going to explode, that meant one thing. The arab street has already exploded, principally internally. We need not fear riots against the us and damascus, we no longer have representation there but the and not because of the Jerusalem Embassy, in other words the people committed to keeping america out of the middle east already, they are fully incentivized. Us embassies are constantly under threat, there was a threat this yearto the embassy in cairo. In 1998, two embassies in africa were blown up. In tanzania and kenya, the response of the us was not to cut and run and say wow, there are people who threaten violence to our presence, we might as well leave, the response by congress was to appropriate billion dollars for Embassy Security and of the executive to hunt down the perpetratorsand ensure that they come to justice. At the american response. There is no other situation in which threats toembaie , especially to a major ally are a reason for not having diplomatic representation in a countrys capital. In particular this has a bad consequence for the Peace Process because it puts israel in a special, unique category where the existence of sovereignty over its capital is only provisionally recognized. It recognized with a . Israel is a country in a class of one, that undermines the Peace Process. Moreover, the palestinians base their claims to a state to the jordanian and egyptian conquest of areas of the british mandate in 1949. Large parts of jerusalem including potential location for the embassy are not in those areas, illegally conquered by jordan and egypt and the palestinians have no claim to them. Waiting for, applying this to the Peace Process makes the palestinians i bigger than their plates and gives them habitat for that which they could not potentially have and fundamentally undermine the Peace Process. Thank you, the chair now recognizes himself for five minutes. Sometimes in america people will say we want to move the embassy the israelis dont want the embassy in jerusalem. Ive been to israel recently, left, right, center, they also to move it. Is that accurate that israel would welcome, not that israel is dictating what president ial does but would it be welcome in israel . I believe it would be welcome welcome. This sound like act ii of something we went through earlier of the carol of course act where people were saying israel doesnt want it. Really . Is that true . Only went to tel aviv to have coffee as a coffee shop and came back as an expert . Let me reassure you, our Prime Ministers all sorts or ask that the us embassy he moved. Israel rabin was the father of the agreements in the 1990 spoke about jerusalem remaining united under the sovereignty of israel and our Public Opinion polls indicate support for that. Thats not the same as the embassy, but its all part of the same complex. Support for jerusalem, the us position in jerusalem is at an alltime high. Correct me if im wrong but theres no connect located in tel aviv, the Prime Ministers residence is not there, its all in jerusalem. The seed of your government, all the major players, the people we would be dealing with are in jerusalem at the end of the first arabisraeli war, much of the World Community and Prime Minister david bengurion, dont move your capital to jerusalem. And of course, he gave some of the lines which i shared with you earlier that revolution 181 as no moral force and he declared that israel was moving its embassy to, moving its capital to jerusalem, the knesset was moved to jerusalem as a result of his decision back then in 1949. One of the remarkable things is it shifts the archaeological wonders. Our country is a blip on the map compared to the thousand year history but how is that treated under the arab occupation between 49 and 57, some of the construction . Since we werent engaging archaeology in territory which jordan claimed, and their archaeological investigations were not particularly advanced, it wasnt effective. I will tell you this, under our understanding with jordan, we have said the administration of the muslim shrine on the temple mount are in the hands of the one which is a kind of endowment for religious institutions in jordan. The wath has been irresponsible with respect to the areas under its jurisdiction. So for example when the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement, the branch of the Muslim Brotherhood in israel engaged in illegal construction activities under the mosque in the compound, they removed hundreds of tons of archaeological rubble from the temple mount and threw it in a dump site outside the outskirts of jerusalem. Since then israeli archaeologist have gone through that rubble and found precious items that have been saved. So i doubt given that record that these archaeological sites would be well taken care of if the management for East Jerusalem changed. Ambassador bolton, of point was made by professor con aerobics that these arab states, they are worried about iran. Have a president in america believes iran is a threat, thinks the nuclear deal was a bad deal. Other going to not want to work with us and israel because we move our embassy to jerusalem . I think it will have no material effect at all either on the broader geostrategic issues in the middle east or on the middle east Peace Process involving israel. Or really on anything significant. There a lot of rhetoric in public and diplomatic matters. That suits the political needs of the people who are uttering the words, when behindthescenes you are hearing something completely different, which as we understand. The issue for me is whats in the best interest of the United States . How are our interest best served . How can our diplomats be most effective in the argument there is an contestable. What hurts us is when we given to unfounded pressure and intimidation, because it says something about the United States that we wont do what purelycommon sense, its harmful to us, harmful to israel, harmful to the stability in the region. The statement that was issued and entered into the record by ambassador kercher compared us posture toward jerusalem with russia annexation of crimea, but if we think prime you was wrong, how could we want our embassy in jerusalem . Do you think those two things are parallel . I think theres a lot to learn from our reaction to crimea as well as to jerusalem but it goes in the opposite direction. What ambassador kercher suggested i would refer you to my article on crimea and israels borders, the reason america did not recognize russias seizure of crimea is not because the people there are not russian or dont want to be part of russia, it was because it was part of the ukrainian socialist republic until ukrainian independence and when a new country is created, if borders are the borders of the last administrative unit in that area though when ukraine was created, the idea is within its borders even though how that came to be was not necessarily fair, democratic or reflecting doctrine. We say crimea belongs to ukraine. The last top level administrative unit was the british unit for palestine, there was no corpus, no west bank and thus the presumptive borders upon looking include all of jerusalem, not to mention to gaia and us jordans invasion would be like russias invasion of crimea and it would and ask that we could give no recognition to. I now recognize the Ranking Member mister lynch. Thank you very much mister chairman. Doctor coppola, the United States is currently relying on the cooperation of our era allies like egypt, saudi arabia and jordan. In cooperation, to really stabilize the security interests in the region including four israel. Jordan, weve had on the critical support from King Abdullah against isis. He said, this is a quote, he is quoted, a relentless war against isis and hit them in their own ground. Hes been an unequivocal supporter of our efforts there. I hearken back to in egypt, when the morrissey regime came in after qaddafis new, mubaraks removal. They actually were considering abrogating the 1979 egypt israeli Peace Agreement that was negotiated between anwar sadat and men knocking bacon. Which they received the nobel peace prize. Now, with alsisis regime and there they lived up to the letter of the law and secured the situation on israels southern border with respect to gaza. In deciding if we should move the us embassy now, should the us at least consider and engage these neighbors in terms of what that move would present to the monarchy in jordan or alsisi government in egypt . I think that absolutely the us needs to consider the opinions of these other allies. Israel is our most stalwart and reliable ally but we do have our allies with whom we work on a number of things to take jordan in particular, right now jordan is a vital partner of the United States in terrorism operations, its a vital partner in the fight against isis. Contributes increasing support to the Usled Coalition forces fighting isis. Jordan also has an enormous Refugee Program as weve noted from syria and sums for refugees and American Interests as well and of course its in jordans interest to continue these things but there are ways in which they cooperate with the United States now that they be more difficult to remove the embassy. They conducted the largest ever military exercise that we ever had, that is the type of thing that public pressure can be brought to bear and have those cut off and i would note that there are recent examples in jordan and in other countries around the region where domestic politics, because of public pressure indeed trumps National Security interests. In the israelipalestinian sphere, the Palestinian Authority in july stopped cooperating with israel on the Security Commission which is the biggest factor in preventing terrorism in israel he cities and the cure coordination the pa and keeping the pan power. That coordination would not restore until only a few weeks ago. Thats something that it was in the pa security interest to maintain public pressure over Palestinian Issues prevented it from happening. With jordan as well, currently there is no israeli ambassador in jordan , she was recalled due to an instance in the Israeli Embassy. The jordanian government certainly has an obvious interest in continuing to cooperate on National Security but again, public pressure can lead to consequences that are not good for either country so in jordan in particular its something to worry about and with egypt as well, egypt is a partner against isis and elsewhere. But its also important to note that in the last two months, egypt has taken on a much larger role in keeping things quiet in gaza than they had before. Again, public pressure is brought to bear in these countries even though they are not democracies, there are still audience cost that affects these things andif the United States moves the embassy it is going to put much of this cooperation at risk and as i noted, its something we should consider when weighing the balance of interests. Thank you. The members of this committee probably or in the middle east including very frequently israel but some of these neighboring countries on a permanent basis, the cooperation of egypt and gaza, ive only been into gaza couple of times but such a proximate threat, egypts military cooperation is extremely, extremely important. The concernsraised by King Abdullah in jordan about , sometimes i think we take for granted that weve got a Friendly Administration there in jordan and is there, i mean, think about it if we had a hostile government in jordan, what would that mean . Is King Abdullahs concerns about his monarchy, his government being tipped over by the street, some of the more not insurgent but more radical elements of the population there, is that legitimate or do you think its overstated . Certainly i dont think anyone can predict whether it will happen but to the extent that King Abdullah and the government expressed these concerns we should take them seriously. Jordan is a country that is majority palestinian. As large as 70 percent palestinian. They are sensitive to issues within the israeliPalestinian Conflict and these types of issues really as i noted, create lots of pressure on the king of jordan to either seize property or to cut back property or cooperation with the United States and jordan in particular is sensitive to issues in jerusalem as i noted given its historic role and given the role that the israel jordan peace treaty grants to jordan over all these places in jerusalem and doing any sudden moves when it comes to jerusalem impacts jordan in a real way. As you noted, jordan is as reliable an era of ally aswe have in the region. They are vital for our security on a number of fronts. I think even risking the danger of the jordanian government being replaced or something happening to King Abdullah would impact american National Security interest in a fundamental way in the middle east. Thank you and i yelled back. The chair recognizes mister comer for five minutes. Ambassador bolton, the Trump Administration has stated and intends to move the us embassy to jerusalem. , the question is not if that move happens but only when. Ambassador bolton, when is the appropriate time to make this move and why . I think the appropriate time to make the announcement is today. And let me say and respect of the comments that have been made about the strategic implications of the move, as i said in my prepared statement, i think we should take very seriously the concerns of countries like jordan and egypt, but i dont think that means they have a veto. I think it means we do what diplomats do, we consult in advance. We explain our reasons, we work with them to facilitate their ability to explain to their own citizens why its happening. And lets be realistic, the construction of the new embassy is not something that happens in 24 hours. First you have to announce it, then you have to break the ground. You have to design the embassy first, you have to build it, dedicate it, this is going to take place over years. And so theres a long period of time involved and if the decision to go forward four by four of the embassy, buried with the temperature of the middle east Peace Process, this building could take forever. I think its very important that we understand that the country and the world, most sensitive to the regime in jordan, most aware of the implications for security is israel. And it defies credulity to think that israel would advocate a step that could cause King Abdullah to be overthrown and a terrorist regime to take power. Theyre not going to do it and neither are we. Thank you ambassador, with the stalled Peace Process and deteriorating situation in the middle east, what could the us you to support israel and stand by our allies . Obviously you touched on moving the embassy but what are other things . Beyond the embassy i think the greatest threat to peace and security in the middle east remains the Nuclear Weapons program which is not paused, has not slowed down, has been camouflaged by the Iran Nuclear Deal and i disagree on the handling of that deal, i would break it immediately and establish a new reality but i think specifically in terms of gaza and the west bank, i think that the United States is taking advantage of a potential for reopening of the Peace Process. Its significant the Trump Administration is moving at the beginning of its term, not the end as is so apt and so often in the past and i dont know whether the chances for success are any better or any worse but when it comes to the embassy issue, the administrations effort is going to have its ups and downs like all Peace Processes and if you said after a step forward in the Peace Process, we dont want to risk that by moving the embassy, or at a downturn in the Peace Process, we dont want to take it entirely by moving the embassy, this is how not now becomes not ever. I think thats a mistake. When the United States asked in a realistic way, recognizing areality in a particular region that enhances our credibility, demonstrates we are prepared to act on the basis of reality, that makes our efforts i think more likely to succeed, not less likely. One of my colleagues mentioned that when they were in israel, everyone they had hoped forthe majority of the people in israel supported moving embassy. That was my impression too, speaking to a vast array of israelis. There in jerusalem and tel aviv. Getting back to the embassy, opponents of moving the embassy, opponents in congress have cautioned that could hinder the Peace Process. You believe peacenegotiations between israel and the palestinians , do you think that would impede that in any way and why or why not . I dont think it would affect the overall Peace Process. I think its , the embassy move is given a symbolic significance well in excess of its practical effect. If you believe, and some do, that the United States is fundamentally biased against the arab side, that its so much in the tank for israel that we cant be an honest broker, and they cite the billions of dollars of military and economic assistance weve given to israel since david and quite properly in my view, they look at the world historical events that have affected the middle east sense the 1967 war at least. What possible effect can moving the embassy have in comparison to all of that . This is taking a pebble and made it into a mountain and the way to break through that, and i think its scholasticism as i said in my testimony is to move forward with relocating the embassy, acknowledging the reality that jerusalem , that the capital of israel is going to be in an area west of the greenline that nobody except a proponent of eradicating israel entirely would ever say would be in a palestinian state so putting it in a place that nobody disputing cannot affect either final status or the broader Peace Process. Thank you ambassador, my time is up. I want to conclude by saying i look forward to working with the Trump Administration as we change direction with our policy toward israel and hopefully strengthen the support that we have with our allies in that region. The gentleman yields back, we recognize the gentleman from vermont. Thank you very much mister chairman for pulling this hearing and i thank all the witnesses for your testimony. I think all of us here are strong supporters of israel, even if we have some disagreements about particular issues including the wisdom of moving the capital. And i think all of us here report the significant 10 year aid package to israel. Ambassador gold, you mentioned that trump made a commitment to move the capital. And pardon me . The embassy. Thank you. As you know, around the time of his inauguration, i think at his inauguration, King Abdullah came here and my understanding is he personally requested the president not to do that but is President Trump wrong and accommodating the request of King Abdullah . I cant say what King Abdullah said thePresident Trump because i wasnt there and i dont know. Lets be serious here, we know King Abdullah was opposed to moving the embassy. Look, lets say he was. You have to decide on the basis of your own interest how much would moving the embassy have an effect . My question was is President Trump wrong and accommodating that request and not moving the embassy to jerusalem as he promised to do during the campaign . What im saying is this. Whether you have a president was a republican just this specific question, ambassador. Im asking was President Trump wrong in that decision . My view, and i can only speak for myself is that we failed the decision of an american president to move the embassy to jerusalem. We are not going to secondguess the timing, thats an American Interest President Trump was not wrong. Im not going to secondguess the tactics, the timing of moving it. He gave his word in principle and hes going to move the embassy. Im going to interrupt, i just want to say something. I think President Trump is showing great energy in the middle east and with israel. I think what mister greenblatt is doing is good. Would you agree that King Abdullah is a very important and loyal ally of the United States . I believe King Abdullah is aloyal ally of the us and hes an important partner to the state of israel and we have a peace treaty with jordan. My understanding is the significant process and the relationships between israel and many of the sunni arab states, saudi arabia, jordan, egypt, is that your role as well . I agree with that view. I dont have a lot of time. So in the interest of the United States and israel to maintain solid relationships with those sunni arab states. Is the interest of us and israel to build on those relations and encourage them and if you may give me one more sentence on the issue, the principal factor affecting the sunni arab world is what you do with iran. So you agree with ambassador bolton that we should rip up the Iran Nuclear Deal . Know, i think you should upgradeit. You should come up with a better agreement. I only have a little time, ambassador bolton, i want to ask you a question. Is your view that at the present time, the holy sites in jerusalem are secure with the Israeli Security system . I think theyre as secure as they can be under the circumstances. With a b more, to ambassador gold, i dont know if the president was wrong in accepting the recommendation of King Abdullah if thats what he said and thats what the president did . I appreciate your candor. I couldnt wait. Let me ask you this, is the question the holy sites and all of us want them to be secure. Will they be more secure in your view the capital or pardon me, the embassy is moved to jerusalem . It will have no effect on the security of the holysites. Ambassador gold . I said in my testimony that you should encourage the common values that we have. The question is will be security of the holy site be enhanced if the embassy is moved to jerusalem. If anyone thinks israel may under certain circumstances or pressure withdraw from the core of jerusalem and withdraw from the holy sites, you will have an explosion of violence, not reduced violence. I see my time is up but my question is not answered, ideal back. The gentleman yields back, the chair recognizes mister fight for five minutes. Accu mister chairman. I think it could be reasonably and effectively argued that the Obama Administration undermined israels claim to jerusalem by allowing the Un Resolution 2334 which specifically stated that the establishment by israel of settlements in the palestinian territory occupied since 1967 including East Jerusalem has no legal validity. Thats bothersome to me personally, ambassador bolton, let me ask you this. What was the impact of the Obama Administrations decision to allow the Un Security Council to pass that resolution . I think it was destructive, utterly uncalled for. I think it was profoundly wrong and i hope that the Trump Administration will bend every effort to find a way as much as it can practicably be done to reverse that resolution. I think the right position was that articulated by president george w. Bush which is that israel is entitled to live behind boundaries that provide for peace and security. And the notion that the 1967 lines have any, which are really the 1949 armistice lines have any binding effect is completely wrong. And indeed the armistice agreements of 1949 all expressly say that these are armistice lines with no political value. We can argue that for a long time, but let me say i think it was bravely damaging to American Interests for president obama to allow that resolution to be adopted. Would you say that that resolution was consistent, excuse me, with past us policy . Know what path us policy under president republican and democratic with gold for the veto. So what motivated the change . I think president obama had demonstrated over eight years that he thought israel was responsible for much of the instability in the middleeast. Much as i think he believed the United States and its view in the Previous Administration on iran and other issues and cause instability. I think that motivated his decision and i think he was 180 degrees in the wrong direction. So it was an antiisrael policy . I dont know any other way to characterize it. Would moving the embassy to jerusalem have rectify that problem . I dont think it would change the fundamental reality of the resolution, indeed the thrust of my argument is that moving the embassy is simply a practical, efficient decision for the United States to make in the interest of greater effectiveness for his own diplomacy, the only politicization in this issue comes from those who say that somehow they can affect a decision that is properly made by the United States and israel where our embassy goes. Thats the politicization. At the interference, thats what should be unacceptableto the United States. Mister klein, let me ask you in light of this resolution that we are discussing which quite frankly i totally agree is blatantly against israel, can you discuss with the committee how the uns actions impacted israel . This resolution was completely absurd in that it stated that the jewish section of jerusalem is occupied arab territory, the western wall and temple mount, judaism two oldest sites are occupied territory. It had no Practical Impact as the initial at one realizes its absurd and even through the world most people realize thats absurd. So it really only sent a message of astonishing, breathtaking hostility that president Obamas Administration had toured the jewish state of israel and the entire un. Their blatant antiisrael sentiment at the un across the board. That needs to be addressed, what can the United States do to help prevent and change this antiisrael stance . Ambassador haley is beginning to do that by calling them out on their irrational and absurd positions against israel when they ignore evil and horrific regimes through the world. And i think one thing that can be done, there is legislation moving in that direction is to make it clear to the un that america will stop apportioning its share of funding of the un if they do not change this outrageous resolution. I think if that happened, that resolution would change immediately. As opposed tothe embassy not being moved, that resolution would be changed immediately. Thank you mister chairman ideal. The chair now recognizes mister jordan for five minutes. Ambassador bolton, how many countries are there in the world . We had diplomatic recognition with over 190, there are 193 members of the un. My guess is we are the biggest, strongest country in the planet. My guess is we have fantasies and everyone, maybe not iran. A few we dont recognize under 180 or so countries, we got embassy and it all those countries, the embassy is in the capital, the seat of government except for one, is that right . The answer to that is yes, the only exception is occasionally a country moves its capital city. So it takes you a while to relocate. For many years our embassy in belize was in belize city even though the capital wasnt built upon 10 years ago we finally moved our embassy so we maybe doubt israel. 188 countries that we recognize, you havent embassy every single one, we put the embassy in the capital or the seat of government. There must be something to that. Except one. Israel became a country in 48, is that right . We were the first country to recognize itsindependence. My next question, who was the first head of state to recognize israel. Richmond. Resident of the United States. A few years ago, 1995, we have to , Jerusalem Embassy act that almost every Single Member of congress voted for, is that right . I think it was like a boy in the house but in the senate it was like 93 to 5. Something like that. For this act to take effect, this is amazing. Commerce wouldnt have to do anything, something we are pretty good at. Frankly, the president does do anything, is that right . Thats correct and it was a sign, this was willing to pay for it which is interesting. X we dont have to do anything, the president doesnt have to do anything. Everyone has spoken, the President Campaign on this. The people elected him and this was a central issue of his campaign. We do everywhere else except one country with happens to beone of our best friends in the entire world. Thats correct. So this is what gets me. This is simple to me. This is about remembering your friends. Its about loyalty. This is recognizing the fact there is one country in the world who stand with us every single time. They happen to be the one country where we get our judeochristian values system from, the state of israel and yet theyre the one nation where we want the embassy where its supposed to be and particularly when you think about what we went through the last eight years with the Previous Administration and more importantly what happened last few months of that administration, this is the right time to do this thing. Thats why the president recognized campaign and one of the reasons i would say the American People elected in, you agree . I think thats true. Lets just get it done. Lets get it done. Right . [applause] i entirely persuaded. [laughter] i thought youd be, thats why the question. I think i asked most of the families. I want to thank the chairman and all are witnesses that came here. I want to thank the president who had the courage to say this was the right thing to do, the time is now, particularly in light of what we went through the last eight years. Lets get this done as quickly as possible. I understand their concerns, ambassador gold outlined them but lets get this done. It is the right thing to do and when it comes to, you got to remember who your friends are, who shares your set of values and the values that make the world a better place, lets recognize all that and get this done and with that ideal back. The gentleman yields the rest of his time and more to climb, the significance of jerusalem obviously i think its selfevident to the jewish people but in america, your involvement in politics, you know folks from jewish activists to christian activists, this city matters to people here in america, does it not . The most recent polls show that americans support moving the embassy to jerusalem and keeping it an undivided city by 41. So its really overwhelming and by the way, even liberal ministers, like jesse palin said the embassy must be moved immediately so that the consensus in israel overwhelmingly but in america, yes, the overwhelming majority support this move and have supported it for 23years. I may say, the hummable premise of why theres a debate is that the arabs claim that jerusalem is holy to muslims. Thats the premise. If it was not holy to muslims, if they saythey want to move it , that ithought was holy, nobody would talk. But this is a fundamental falsehood. The majority of People Living in jerusalem the mid1800s have been jews read second largest number of people, christians, muslims on the third. And the arabs say well, karen says mohammed went from jerusalem to heaven but what does it really say . It says mom and had a dream that on his wings course he flew from the sacred mosque to the furthest mosque. The evidence makes it clear that this claim, that before this mosque cant be. When palestine is mentioned, its referred to as the closest land, not the furthest land so jerusalem and palestine cannot be the furthest mosque when palestine is the closest land. One more thing, palestine has not yet been conquered by the muslims. There wasnt a single mosque in palestine when the koran was written. The gentlemans time has expired and the chair recognizes miss fox for five minutes. Thank you and i want to thank all of our witnesses here today. Its a very enlightening presentation and i want to say, i want to associate myself with the comments of some of my colleagues, that way i dont have to repeat the comments of my colleagues. And as they are gold, the first thing i want to say is i think you do a wonderful job when you present the many Different Cases that you present when i occasionally have a chance to see you on in the media. But i want to follow up on your verbal testimony. You mentioned the topic of israels ability to preserve the integrity of the status quo of the holy land site. I find this interesting given that the tractors are moving the embassy claimed that it would be inflammatory and inciting. Can you expand on the ability of israel to prove as a stabilizing force for religious exercise and speech and ward off religious incitement . Do you think israels sovereignty with respect to jerusalem would be a positive influence on religious pluralism through the region . First of all, israel views itself as sovereign in jerusalem. Today. Thats the situation. Now, in terms of protecting stability and security in that area, just go on the major holidays to the area of the temple mount. Come on ramadan and see how many tens of thousands of muslims are praying near the a lot some mosque because they cant and get even get into the mosque because its so full. Come to, on the time of christmas to the church of the holy sepulcher and see all the christians who stream in four christian holidays in the old city. Then come to the western wall and see on the jewish holidays, particularly the pilgrimage festivals like passover, and others, come to the old city and pray at the western wall, jerusalem works. It operates well. And changing or expressing uncertainty of any kind about israels position only feeds radical elements who want to argue that the jewish people have no connection with jerusalem. Or receive all kinds of other baseless theories. Last but not least, i want to make this point because i think its a concurrent point thats important. There is a sheet named rides a lot who heads the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement which is basically part ofthe Muslim Brotherhood. He used the come to jerusalem a lot. He has been running around israel and the region saying israel is undermining the foundations of the alaqsa mosque and this keeps up the whole region, this life and by the way he has faced prosecution in the israeli legal system, but one of the things we have to do is expose this line. Because frankly, the only one who ever threatened the foundations of any of the muslim shrines has been him, when he led a group to dig out tons of archaeological areas near the alaqsa mosque and created all kinds of problems which i dont have time to go into. Israel is taking care of the holy sites, it has been taking care of the site and will continue to take care of them and if you dont have a responsible power to protect the holy sites, you are setting up a recipe for the next regional conflict. Thank you very much ambassador and i want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today and thank you mister chairman for the time, i feel the back. The gentle lady yields back, the chair notes the presence of our colleague, the gentleman from california and i ask content that he be allowed to participate in todays hearing, without objection and so ordered, the journal recognizes the gentleman from florida, mister ross for five minutes. Thank you, i appreciate the time. Ambassador bolton, when you opened up, you dispel some of the nets with regard to the basis for not moving the embassy and i guess one of them that concerns me the most is the second point. About the fragility of the piece negotiations going on in the middle east and how this may disrupt it. How what impact did the Un Resolution 2334 have on the impact of the Peace Process in the mideast . I think it was decidedly negative because it gave a false impression that the palestinians and their supporters could win in the halls of the United Nations what they failed to win at the negotiating table. And we turned a blind eye to that with an abstention. It was his catastrophic decision by the Obama Administration. Would you agree that any successive piece negotiation has to have United States at the table . Anybody who doesnt understand that doesnt understand reality. And if were going to negotiate, should we not negotiate from a position of strength . If youre going to negotiate, i guess that would be the way we would do this and we allow tacit approval of the Un Resolution 2334 shows our weakness to our greatest ally and then we get resistance for moving in embassy because its going to disrupt the Peace Process, the anomaly there is a logical, not that what we do here has any basis in logical reason but i guess my second point is that , and ambassador gold, you talked about this, about the sanctity of the holy sites. Who better than the israeli people who have been the protectorate of the holy sites to allow them to continue to do so. And would it not again, in accordance with logic and reason, dictate that the move of the embassy from tel aviv to jerusalem would give a higher sense of security and a higher sense of clearance to allow for an even greater preservation of these sites. And i want to remind you, between 1948 and 1967 when we lost the old city, our holy sites were attacked. For everyone to see regardless of ethnicity, religious background, nationalism, anything. I mean, i guess my point is that here we are, arguing over what i think are baseless arguments to not move the embassy, and yet we stand again in abeyance with the Peace Process at that time if were going to deal with a Peace Process, it would seem to me if the u. S. Is going to be a partner, to succeed in a mid east piece, we should sew strength the greater strength be it deliberate. Dont mind making sure we reach out ol lies but if peace is sotheby the palestinians, then moving the embassy in and of itself would be a step in right direction. Would you all agree with me . I think thats certainly correct, and goes to what i believe is the fundamental misconception about the potential impact of an embassy move, which assumes in part that the United States today is poised between the palestinians and the state of israel, when in fact if you look at the imbalance and economic assistance, billions and billions to israel, compared to a relatively smaller amount through the u. N. And directly, nobody can believe that were eneequi publish poise on it. Whats the real change in the strategic reality in the region, and the answer is the change is dem de minimis. One of the strategies to make negotiations work is to get the parts into what i would call the box of realism. If people have a fantasy they can achieve goals they havent got a chance to reach, you move the embassy you create a becomes of realism for the neighbors. Surgical is not going to give up jerusalem. Somebody better digest that. It has been the capitol of israel and will remain the capitol of israel. Youre moving the embassy reinforces the box of realism and brings us that much closer to a negotiated solution. Thank you. I yield back. The gentleman yields back them chair recognizes the gentleman from wisconsin, mr. Grothman. Thank you. Going to go down a different path here. Anyone can answer this. Right now, of course, the out maintains a diplomatic representative to the palestinians and thats in west jerusalem. Is there any doubt, if youre familiar with that, where the diplomatic representative, is there any doubt, does anybody dispute the fact, except the most extreme elements, that that diplomatic representation is in israel . Well, the location of the building is in west jerusalem, but in actual fact this has been true for over a quarter century, even longer that consulate has been perceived at the state department as the de Facto Embassy to the palestinian state. Thats the problem in and of itself. Right. Just to compare the two as far as what were dealing with here, could you compare the idea that as a practical matter, the palestinian representative or embassy is in israel, but we cant put the Israeli Embassy the American Embassy to israel in jerusalem. I think theres actually a consulate facility in east of the green line that does things like provide visas for palestinians, but honestly, this goes to a larger point that i dont think any of us perhaps coveredexcept in the prepared testimony about rationalizing what our view is on a potential outcome of the Peace Process and whether the twostate solution is still viable. Im not sure you can solve that all at once. Thats why the question of whether to relocate the embassy into indisputable territory, and jerusalem is easiest. I love ambassador golds comments but it hit the nail on the head. Moving the embassy would put realtime into discussions over there. Ill bring up another matter. Since were talking about where the israeli is, spend a second here on where he American Embassy to the palestinians is. Do you think it would introduce a speck of reality to move the embassy to ramallah, rather than put it in jerusalem, does that also the fact that building is in jerusalem, does that kind of encourage this lack of common sense or lack of reality in the region . I think others will want to comment on this, but i think we need revisit the entire concept of having a kind of permanent de Facto Embassy to a palestinian state that doesnt exist yet. That person, at least the last time i was in the state department, the consul general in jerusalem is instructed not to have contact with the officials at the government of. Their job is to talk to the palestinians. Thats one reason why the consulate there has the tort, which few consulates do, to send able cables back to worst without the approval of the ambassador to israel, the country which which its located. Think this has been in aid of perpetuating the myth that if you think about it hard enough, a palestinian state will appear out of nowhere. Thats a mistake from the u. S. Point of environment its not realistic. Ambassador gold, care to comment . Well, if we take some of the principles that ambassador bolden has put forward, about where embassies are located, i think hes right. We dont ambassador bolton is correct. We dont have yet a political solution to the palestinian side. We dont know where palestinian selfgoverning institutions will be located and would make sense in the future, any embassy would be locate near those institutions. Sometimes there are palestinians in jordanians who speak about a federation or confederation, dot that mean the u. S. Embassy in ammann should be involved . Who knows . But were not yeted a a political solution so its a little premature to start saying where the u. S. Embassy representing u. S. Interests to the palestinians should precisely be. Okay. But the status quo, just to reiterate what you said, the status work as long as the u. S. Embassy is out in in jump jump it kind of imlives that could become a permanent state of affairs and as long as what is operating as the de facto American Embassy to palestine, is in jerusalem and also kind of leaves the idea out there that could be a permanent state of affairs, correct . I think what youre implying, and i think its true, it gives a net effect that the palestinians have a leg up on the claim in jerusalem, which is not fair, which needs to be remedied. Correct. Thank you very minute. We have one of our strongest allies, only democracy in the middle east, and yet we act like jerusalem is not the capital of tel aviv, and then you have palestinian arabs who have rejected states, gone to war with israel and years and year and we have something in jumpum for them. Its maddening. Good questions. The chair now recognizes mark meadows. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, for your leadership on this issue. Obviously as being members of the republican conference, there is always a very willing partner on behalf of the gentleman from florida on issues that are pro jewish and pro israel and i thank you for your leadership. Ambassador bolton, let me dom you. Would you suggest that there are a number of people in the state department that are vehemently opposed to moving the embassy to jump . Absolutely. This is a this is a problem at the state department. Wrote about it in my book that i wrote every was at the u. N. , that there are elements in department who are excellent Civil Servants who follow the direction of new president s. There are others who think they should run american Foreign Policy. And theyve been running this issue for as long as anyone can remember. So to your knowledge, were any of those people at the state department elect november 8th. No, strangely and theyre not mentioned in the constitution, either. To your knowledge, when the president ran on this particular issue, do you believe that there were a number of people who felt like there was a reset in terms of our relationship with the Jewish Community and finally the United States of america . Yes. Think its a Campaign Promise that a lot of people paid a lot of attention to and its very important. So, would you characterize this as a Campaign Promise that if the president failed to follow through on, that would be a major disappointment to the Jewish Community . Well, ill just speak as a lutheran. Would be a major disappointment to me, and i as an evangelical a major disappointment to me and i it is something that not only have we brought up with the president directly, i can tell you that he understands the commitment that he has made on this particular issue. Theres always one skunk at the party and so as we look at this, obviously you dont believe that we should be moving the embassy to jerusalem, is that correct . I believe National Security considerations dictate we should probably leave it in tel aviv for six months. What has changed over the last 20 years in terms of our National Security interests . Because we continue to debate this over and over. Do you know who aracat. Yes. How long has he had his job . Certainly as long as i can remember. Well, its the the closest thing to eexternal life here is an eternal job of being able to negotiate a Peace Agreement between the palestinians and the israelis. Wouldnt you agree . Yes. All right. So, since he has not been successful in over 21 years, in the embassy has not been in jerusalem, how could moving the embassy to jerusalem have affected his track record . If we move it do you think hell be any less successful . Die think he will be any less successful . Yes. I cant imagine that he personally will be less successful. I agree. So, from a National Security standpoint, is the knesset fairly secure . Yes. Its very secure. Are you saying we couldnt secure our embassy in jerusalem or just saying that geopolitically it makes a National Security less viable. I have no doubt that we would be able to secure our embassy in jerusalem the same we we secure our embassy in tel aviv. I agree. What Empirical Data do you have that would suggest this would create a National Security incident . You were just talking i find your logic fascinating. You were just talking but how the palestinians were pushing back against the Security Agreement and yet the embassy is in tel aviv. Why would i mean, theres something to the logic that doesnt seem to mesh. I think there are number of issues regarding jerusalem that affect National Security for us and for israel. The embassy is one of them. Its not the only one. In general, as i note in my testimony, things that occur in jerusalem tend to be the parks youre saying the very presence of a building in jerusalem is going to create a National Security issue . I think it very well may. Okay. And you dont have any Empirical Data support that. Thats just your feeling, being a doctor from georgetown in political science. Based on the fact that other violent incidents in israel are generally sparked beijings in jerusalem. Think one can assume this could you possibly be wrong . Absolutely. Okay. Ambassador bolton, one quick point. On this question of physical security for american diplomats, i think anybody probably many people on the committee have been to tel aviv. You have seen our embassy. I can only imagine the heartburn it accuses in what we call oboe at the state department, the overseize building operations bureau, the Diplomatic Security bureau, its very close to a main street, and contemporary terms we would never build a building like that and moving this to jerusalem would give us amp opportunity to use the most advance it security techniques we could and our personnel would be safer in a new facility than in the embassy they currently occupy in tel aviv, and we dont need to be remind of the risks to our people overseas, none of us want to see the risk continued. So from that perspective, which involves american lives on the front end, i think every consideration argues for moving the buck bulk of ore personnel to jump jerusalem. It would be a great message the president could say on the 50th anniversary of reunification that the finally move the embassy to the eternal capitol of israel, jerusalem. Yield back. [applause] gentleman yields back. Chair now wreck nyes the gentleman from kansas, mr. Size a forks five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ill pick up where my colleague from North Carolina left off. Dr. Kopolov, since i will not describe you as anything other than a member of the party here. Do you know where the u. S. Ambassador to israel spends most of this time while in israel . In the past ambassadors spend time in tel aviv, and having midwest with ambassador freedman a few weeks other it was in tell a vive. Thats interesting because eusols see them at the king david because as long as the knesset is in session thats where they have. They have not lived in the king david every time the knesset is in in session but the state department keeps exactly. The state department keeps a residence for the ambassador at the king david and has for decades. Ambassador gold, would you confirm that from your experience, that if you want to meet the ambassador in jerusalem, thats pretty much the digs he has to meet you at, isnt it . There has been a an american facility in one of jerusalems hotels. So, i stay at the king david by choice. Well just leave it as its my Favorite Hotel in the city. Colony being a second. Now, having said that, the security at the kick david is pretty good for a hotel. Ambassador bolton, does it begin to meet the setbacks of safety, security, for Embassy Personnel and the ambassador that are the minimum standards of todays embassies . No. It doesnt even come close, and i can tell you from my own personal experience when i was in new york, these security questions are extremely important. We dont need benghazi to remind us. These are americans doing job for, at greater risk because of the travel necessity between tel aviv and jerusalem now, because of the insecure facilities and because of the lost opportunity of building more secure facilities in jerusalem. And dr. Ko poe lov have you been in the full consulate that exists in East Jerusalem that Services Mostly palestinians. I have not. I have. Its a very large facility, actually. Its embassiesque in its setback and size. Have you been in the consul generals compound which is separate in westum jerusalem. No. You nowhere the ymca is over there. Yes. Its a block and a half away. The interesting this the consul general maintains a facility andingly, mostly, heads into in and out of east the west bang, if you will, and i personally think its a good location because it allows him a very safe location no matter what may be happening in the west bank. But in fact they almost always on a daily basis go back and forth. What i find interesting is his facilities have significant setback, considering theres once a private estate, the facility is permanent and has been expanded. The consulate that exists nearby is substantial and was built to modern standards, and yet today, as the knesset meets in jerusalem, the ambassador stays in temporary rented facilities at some location in jerusalem, and has no real proper place to conduct diplomatic business. So my question to you, doctor, separate from the question of the term, embassy, for a moment, knowing we have a facility for the consul general which is substantial, we have the actual consulate facility that dot consular type work, any reason we should not have proper, safe facilities for the ambassador when he or she is going and out of meetings with the government whichings substantially normally located in jerusalem, least when knesset is in session. Thats a question nor state department to decide of the security concerns arent about the facility itself. I think the security concerns are more about wider geopolitical security and the overall security situation in jerusalem for israel. Okay. So, congressman juan vargas, former jesuit priest, knew congressman, and myself, have a bill that calls on the state department to build a permanent and substantial facility to house safely the ambassador to israel in or near jerusalem for purposes of conducting the business of the American People before this nation. Do you inherently have any problem with that portion of, with that sub law . Doesnt sea embassy. Have a problem with putting the ambassador in a safe location and in proximity to the government of israel. Without having seen the bill im rereluctant take my description and ill match it with your agreement. Support anywhere in the ambassador is, that facility should be secure. If i can summarize, the chairmans indulgence, the one thing this entire panel, i think, agrees, based on head shaking, is that the current government of israel, of the israeli people, is located in jerusalem. That government regularly meets there. That the ambassador has an the u. S. Ambassador has an obligation to regularly be there and is there regularly. That the ambassador is not currently in facilities that immediate meet in the common standard of to fa its nor the ability to host people in the way that ambassadors normally deat the embassy, that the embassy in the tel aviv the other side on the ocean, its beautiful, but its also not protectable, that facility is dated and by definition does not meet the standards and so regardless of the president s decision on the question of moving the embassy, we have a facility deficit, security deficit, that needs to be corrected and the logical place to secure the ambassador for most of the time is in a city where he currently does not have permanent u. S. Facilities. Think thats what i heard everyone shaking for head for so as the president decides this question, he is really deciding the question of safety of diplomats and security and our countrys ability to do business with the capital sorry with the government of israel. Is that one we can agree on the gentlemans time has expired. Im going for that long agreement, chairman. Can i guess a yes. If gay you some indulgence. I know brian has to move on so i want to recognize him for five minutes. Thank you, chairman, for the invitation to join your committee today. This has been a much needed hearing. Im going ask very selfevident questions bus this is such a selfevident issue, at least in my opinion so ill just start at the end down here. Mr. Can you tell me what is the cap of of the United States of america. Washington, dc, of course. Certainly, and doctor in what u. S. City does egypt maintain their embassy. Washington, dc. Thatsll right. We maintain ours in cairo. Mr. Klein you now the u. S. City in which jordan maintains their embassy. Could have been in jump jump i that chose ahman. They maintain their embassy in washington washington, d. C. Ambassador gold, you where the saudi arabia maintain their embassy. The center and power of influence, the capitol of the United States, washington, dc. You Better Believe and it we maintain ours in riyadh. Ambassador bolton, im sure you can say where israel and 177 other nations maintain their embassies here in the United States of america . Turns out to be washington. Thats exactly right. So, i guess short of invasion, really cant think of a bigger slap in the face to any nations sovereignty, their right to selfgovernment, their legitimacy, than not recognizing their capitol or center of government, and i think us not celebrating having an embassy in jerusalem, having the presence there, our Diplomatic Mission in israel having it there, its absolutely slight to our greatest of allies every single day. So im going to keep my remarks very brief and just say this. We are the leader of the free world. That is undisputed fact. Rightly. So so, we need to be calling on every person in the town, every person in this building to lead, and establish our embassy in the center of freedom, in the middle east, and that is the true capitol of israel, jerusalem. Thank you nor opportunity to be here, chairman, and i yield back. Yield the balance of your time to me . Absolutely. Thank the jail. Just wanted to thank the witnesses for your testimony. I think we have gotten a lot of very good information. Think it was presented very crisply, and i just come away from the hearing more convinced than ever that we need to follow this 1995 law. Id loaf to dive about the end of the year to coincide with the 50th anniversary of jerusalems reunification during the six are sixday war but from a security perspective, the religious freedom perspective, the endorsement of israeli stewardship over the religious sites, something that is very important, both here, there, and i think throughout the world, and i think geopolitically, people will see that americas standing with a close ally, and thats exactly what we need to be doing at this point in time. I will the hearing the record will remain open for two weeks for any nobody submit a written Opening Statement or questions for the record. If theres no further business, without objection, the National Security subcommittee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] on monday, the Senate Finance committee will debate and mark up the senate g. O. P. Tax reform plan. Live coverage begins at 3 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan3. On saturday, watch the wisconsin book festival, starting at noon eastern. Sunday night on after words. Imperative for me, because i had a platform and if this is my 15 minutes, then here i am, and if i im here today, im not speaking on behalf of the fbi or any intelligence agency, and im not speaking on behalf of anybody but myself but i would like to say that i hope and pray that it am speaking on behalf of the millions of Muslim Americans and 1. 7 billion across the globe that dont think radically. I want them to feel comfortable and stand up and say, that is not the religion. That is what is being warped by al qaeda and isis. Muslim american federal agent who requested to remain anonymous, talked about his experience fighting domestic terrorism in america with his book american radical inside the world of an undercover muslim fbi agent. Interview by michael germon, author of thinking live a terrorist. Watch after words sunday night on booktv. The House Judiciary Committee held aing her examining antisemitism and free speech rights on college campuses. Witnesses provide recommendations to help protect jewish studentsoff antisemitic harassment. The hearing is almost three hours. Good morning. The committee will come to outer