Transcripts For CSPAN2 Media Coverage Of Russia Investigation 20180109

We are very happy to do that. As much as we love it we have been there for 15 years we look forward to our move and if you dont know next year the museum will not be 100 meters from here. Where across the mall in the plaza area in which case we actually will be able to have a new the new Museum Without having to go somewhere else. Its not going to happen for another year or so we used 2018 as our new museum and we will have the program before he do a grand opening around this time next year. Be on the lookout for that. You were given a program for this evening. Definitely take a look at it. Includes a communique for the offense we have at the museum. This is an example with the partnership of the news york times for the two events throughout the spring. Theres a lot of stuff going all the way through the end of march march. One of the highlights of the spring as a Development Event we are doing later this month with the former director of National Intelligence jim clapper who has been in the news a little bit lately but something you may want to check out. Im going to introduce and make sure i get it tonight, first i want to say how much we enjoy have the opportunity to work with our partners at the news york times. We truly love doing it. We worked together with scott shane at the International Spy museum. We look very much forward to working with Michael Schmidt in the near future. These three extraordinary journalists will be introduced more formally by jennifer and a few moments. My friend john jimenez who has been covering it so let me get on with introducing jennifer. Jennifer is a New York Times editor in washington d. C. She first started working at the times which was called at the time a copy girl and since then she has covered numerous and broke chief most recently prior to her current gig she covered capitol hill preparing for anything anyone does away so pleased join me and welcoming jennifer. [applause] good evening. Thank you for coming this evening to want to give a special shout out to the news york times we thank you for helping making our journalism happened we have an Interesting Times interesting and davos program for you tonight. As want to do a couple of housekeeping things. Please turn off your cell phones phones. We are being broadcast live tonight on cspan, cspan2 say you can tell your friends to watch it right now. This is the first of New York Times life events for 2018 and we are excited to bring you more programming. Check out our web site for more later this year. Would love to introduce our panel. My esteemed colleagues who im honored to introduce trademark mazzetti is a correspondent for the news york times where he covers National Security since 2006. Mark has been in charge of editing a lot of the coverage of the russia issue this year and scott shane at the news york times where he has written about National Security and other topics. The vote are part of a pulitzer prizewinning team and he served as a correspondent in russia. Michael schmidt is a correspondent for the news york times. He has times has worked at our baghdad parent before that he was a sports reporter. He has broken some of the biggest stories in the last two years of the news york times and they are joined by Board Members from the spy museum John Menendez and retired officer with over 25 years of service. When she retired she was the chief and hopefully she can put some of this russian information into context without further ado please welcome our panel. [applause] thank you jen and thank you all for coming tonight. Thank you for being at the first time life events 2018 and after what happened in 2017 we thank you for coming back for more. [laughter] tonight, first of all its a great honor to be on this panel tonight with two friends and colleagues who seems to a lot of battles together as long as a new friend. I have excellent authority critical information that after being a Washington Post member for decades recently decided that she couldnt do without the news york times and became a paid subscriber to the news york times. [applause] thats all you need to know for tonight. We already love her. Tonights topic as jen mentioned his trump in the russia investigation and this consuming competitive maddening story that youve all been part of over the past year some as reporters and some his readers. No doubt everyone here has been following this quite closely. I dont know if by the end of the night it will all be clear and if it is please tell us because we would love clarity on anything. Hopefully we will be having a lively discussion. To start, i thought i would first of all say its been a year, almost exactly a year since the Intelligence Community assessment about what happened in the 2016 election about russian hacking and campaign disruption. This was the official Intelligence Community product. I wanted to start out with scott and say okay so its been a year since that came out and there has been a whole lot of reporting and revelations and investigations by journalists, federal investigators etc. What do we say about the Russian Campaign as we know it now . Before lets separate collusion, the famous work collision from what the russians are known to have done and everybody here has been reading about this daily but it might help to just sort of run through quickly and remind ourselves of what the russians did, why they did it and what its impact may have done. So this is the lightning tour of what happened. Basically i think you can divide the Russian Operations into hacking and leaking and the social Media Campaign essentially creating safe americans on facebook and twitter to repeat messages and then there was an element of over propaganda which i think is much less significant where they were just expressing their preference in the president ial race. Why did it happen . I think there was a personal motive on the part of Vladimir Putin. Hillary clinton had publicly sort of spoken to the rights of people demonstrating in moscow in 2011. I happened to be there at the time. It was really an precedented. Hundreds of thousands of people get out on the streets of moscow and they carried white ribbons and they said very unkind things about Vladimir Putin. He took that very personally and i dont think for her it was very much an american politician thing to say you know we support democracy, we support people who are demonstrating for democracy but he took that to heart and then there are other things that certainly from putins point of view were american operations against russia, i dont think we would view it that way. One would be a for example the outing of doping in sports. Its kind of hard to for us to see it that way but for putin it was an attack on russia and with a large american component and another thing we wouldnt see in this way the pentagon papers which of course exposed this old buddy of putins who is a cellist who suddenly it turns out had 2 billion hidden away in offshore accounts. It turns out Classical Music is extremely lucrative in russia and so but i mean he incorrectly saw that as a cia operation. In that sense it was personal. The results are strategic. Russia did not appreciate the socalled Color Revolution in youth crane and georgia. Is so tangled up that nobody would ever say we want to be like them. I have to say we have had some success with that. Finally, did it matter . You can re people say this was insignificant. They spent 100,000 on facebook ads compared to tens of millions by both the clinton and Trump Campaign. That is true. But as social media has unfolded and you look back at the impact of the leaks lets remind ourselves of what the impact was. One thing that happened was that debbie had to resign as chairwoman of the Democratic Party the day before the Democratic National convention. Any message the democrats had was stepped on. It disrupted the national convention. That was from 20 million emails being leaked from wikileaks. Then john podesta it was dribbled out by wikileaks starting on october 7 which happened to be on the day of the access Hollywood Tape became public. They started dumping these Podesta Emails and they kept going after day up to the election. One thing i did is that i looked at some of candidate trumps speeches. Go to his speech in pennsylvania. 225,000 people, rousing speech which he has the crowd in the palm of his hands. In a way, the centerpiece of that speech 0. Is so tangled up that is exerts from little phrases Hillary Clinton speeches that she refused to make public. Unfortunately for her they were included in the Podesta Emails. His literally reading from these things. At the time i dont think they are thinking about the russian operation but if you think about the russian contribution is pretty striking. So i think theres a lot of emphasis on the ads on facebook. If you look at the pages and the many accounts on Twitter Facebook was reluctant to come up with this. Eventually 26 million americans had been served the pages created by russians. Thats a remarkable number. Tweets from russian related accounts were almost 1 of all election related tweets. With a margin of the hundred thousand votes in three states, its impossible to say that activity made a difference and made the difference in the election. But its also hard to say it did it. That was a Successful Campaign on their part. Thats before we get to anything related on the Trump Campaign. Thats what were talking about tonight. One thing will get to since you spent time in russia what a lot of people have thrown around someone say the russians could never have done this without some help. They didnt have the political knowledge and what states to target. Someone say thats absurd. But dont answer that yet. Think about it. I want to move to mike to address the other part of the issue. Theres a question of collusion of the other side of the coin is the question they spend time focusing on what Robert Muellers looking at is what has trump done since becoming president. Was there obstruction of justice and the actions of the president to try to derail the investigation . Would that be something potentially is threatening to the president is any question of collusion. If you look at muellers investigation you can imagine it was like two buckets. You have a collusion bucket and obstruction bucket. With trump theres more things to look at in the obstruction bucket. Theres not a lot of things we know about on the collusion side. Your say that with trump specifically. Theres a lot of things hes Done Since Taking Office that raise questions about what his motivations and intentions were. On february 14 being the biggest one. He went to comey and asked him to end the flynn investigation. Was that trying to impede an ongoing act of the investigation. The firing of comey. What were the true intentions of getting rid of him. Was he trying to obstruct the Russian Investigation . Or was he trying to hold them accountable for Hillary Clinton during the campaign. The statement they came out from an air force one flight over the summer when his return in response to a story or colleagues are coming up about a meeting that happen in 2016 between the Trump Campaign and russians were promising dirt. In that case, was he throwing sand in the gears of the investigation by throwing out information that wasnt true. Another broader question is obsession with loyalty. Why is it that he was so obsessed with Jeff Sessions running the investigation. These are these large its that mueller has been journaling down on. He spent a lot of thing looking at handwritten notes what was somebodys mindset of the larger body of things so can he make an obstruction case. Saw obstruction are very difficult cases to bank because you have to approve that it happened. But is a president of the United States you can fire the fbi director. He has power over the Justice Department to do those things. Was he exercising his executive power . Or was he trying to cover something up . What make it easier is if there be something outside the normal power of the president bill clinton was impeached we dont have any of that on the president that we know about on our side. Based on whats publicly available on questions of obstruction theres not a clearcut case. Youre actually the real expert here, having been in this world for 25 years, is the anniversary of a lot of things. One year out from the revelation of the infamous steel dossier which the matter how much it is examined, its almost gained in prominence as a political issue. Republicans are trying to attack it as a political document. And to smear donald trump. Democrats see it as a result a stone, this is the map that we get to the collusion case. You are a professional intelligence how do you see that document a year later. How would your former colleagues at the cia have looked at the steel dossier . It was a year ago tomorrow when it became public. I stayed up and read that thing like three times. Ive been interested in this thing from the very beginning. The first thing that i thought in my colleagues thought was that look like the real deal. They look like an Intelligence Report would look. Its not one long continuous 35 page document. Its a series of reports typically he draws no conclusions. Is bringing forward facts and cited sources and he shouldnt name them. But as raw intelligence some of it will always be right. Selecting intelligence is not a science. Yours going to have to go and look through. Youre always evaluating that way. Because of that most intelligent officers who read the report initially would have been a little suspicious of how true it would be. Overtime whats interesting is well they have not been able to corroborate every detail of the report. Im unaware of any details of the report that may be truthful. You know Vladimir Putin is in the background with a big eraser. Is doing everything he can to undercut the report. Everything he can do includes assassinating investigative journalists. So be glad you are on the right side of the world on that one. They take extreme measures. Im sure he has taken extreme measures. Im not sure it will be totally substantiated. It just rang true. Its how you do it and intelligence investigation. The format, the way he worded it was clearly a professional Intelligence Officer was trying to nail down a series of facts. So what is true or not true. I would say there if it does if it is untrue than theres a lot of people lying over the past year. If you look at one citation, setting aside some of the more entertaining aspects of the dossier is michael was Donald Trumps longtime lawyer he talked about a meeting in prague in 2016 with the russian official operative thing cut out for the Kremlin Michael said im the record ive never been the prop so that is factually wrong. Then the question is maybe theres a date wrong or a masking a process question, where might that come from . How might a professional officer acting in good faith have sources who make it somethings wrong in this world . I believe the quality of his sources have proven to be high. The people he validated by putting them in his report he felt strongly theres truth there. I read parts of that report allowed to my husband who is a fairly wellknown counterfeiter forger. The fact that Michael Cohen said he was not a product that day at that time doesnt carry a lot of water. If you siding there is no plane ticket showing my arrival, theres no passport stamp, that was tonys business for good part of his life. Its possible for Michael Cortez been there and another name, not coming across border control. See question everything. Its their business. I think using some of the comment in Communications Intelligence from our allies in europe from the dutch and british were picking up incidental intelligence with their electronic intercepts has been a way they been able to push some facts forward in that document. To round out the first part on what we know now the one outstanding question is this, was there collusion or not . My colleagues have been working on this. Our answer is, there is certainly a lot more after your reporting that we know about contacts between trump advisors and Campaign Officials russian government officials and operatives. Theres more suspicious evidence and there was an hard evidence of meetings that were denied. Go back to the beginning of last year there is a categorical denial from the president that anybody in the campaign had anything to do with russia. Has been proven not to be the case over the last year by millers investigation and others. What still remains is was there a systematic attempt by the Trump Campaign and the president to work with the russians in what is now known as a Distraction Campaign that scott laid out . Some of the questions may push back on that. Weve had to be careful in what we know and dont know. In my mind there still Big Questions out there. Maybe this will be the year it will be clear. So the question earlier about the russians, with the russians have needed help, american help to do it they did and to carry out this fairly sophisticated campaign. This is my opinion. People can disagree with it. I dont think the russians needed help. I think its condescending to assume that russians, many have spent time at university here and have a very good understanding of america a very good english would need help to do it. They did not need help with the hacking. We needed help can protecting our Computer Networks against them. But it need help because they went through wikileaks. Wikileaks has volunteers including americans who can invites them. How sophisticated you need to be to dump 20000 emails on the eve of the democratic convention. Will he hears their super sophisticated micro targeting of Facebook Advertising even at the level of particular precincts. Ive heard that so much of facebook has been so stingy. I went back last week and asked again and they said as you know they have a dropdown menu and you can be very specific in how you target facebook ads. Women between 25 and 33 who live in these states. You can finetune the targeting. There is ideological targeting but no geographic targeting below the level of the state. The most common states targeted was marilyn. A democratic state, not a swing state. So there targeting was not sophisticated. I would say they did not need help. You spent a lot of your career looking at the other side and looking at the russians from the other side. One thing that has been lost in this post 9 11 era, the single greatest concern for the United States and American Government for the russians. In the post 9 11 era and those of us who cover the intelligence world are as guilty as anyone else focusing a counterterrorism in the cia is hunting and killing versus collecting and doing spy stuff. What is been a reminder of the last year so so much the people in the cia dont like the russians and the feeling is mutual. That cyber quality of operating in moscow. That is gone on throughout. If you could talk about what it is like operating for american operators even in the boutonniere. Somebody asked me earlier if i have been assigned to moscow and i have not. Never wanted to live there. Was always drab and jury in cold and dark not my kind of place. But tony and i were writing a new book called moscow rules were taking you back to the cold war. As recently as last june, jun june 6, 2016 there is an american officer at the embassy in moscow and he came up to the main gate in the taxi. He got out of the car, pay the driver started walking into his embassy which is american soil and theres a guard shack right there at the gate. Not so much to keep americans and its about keeping the russians out. This is all on the security video tape. This figures come shooting out a guard tack and attacks the american diplomat and proceeds to beat him to a bloodied paul. Hes on top of him. Its a shocking piece of film. The officer who may or may not have been the cia officers on his back on the ground. The slug the military uniform is on top of him beating him. The american officer starts sliding the two of them toward the electronic door. Gets one like hooked on the door, i dont know who train this man. They both slipped through that gate and into the american embassy. And the man continues to beat him. They medevac tim out the next day. This is a year ago. His all kind of injuries and he never went back. One of the moscow rules we talk about is never piss off your surveillance. Evidently this guy has broken all the rules. I dont even know ahead him. Some of phone to head and said hell come to the gate and make sure he understands how displeased we are. At the same time this is the beginning of when obama was thinking about sanctions. The harassment of the diplomatic corps moscow was becoming so thug like something had to be done. There is a military driving his car outside of moscow and the helicopter came down and started making runs at his car as hes driving. Another Embassy Officer broke into his apartment when he was away and defecated on the living room rug. It was really hard ball and intimidation. This is in the same time that meeting happened in trump tower with shared end the lawyer and discussing the adoption of russian or or fence. Theres two sides to this coming. The site is that for public consumption seems to be polite and observe the diplomatic niceties. On the other hand in moscow, our officers had walltowall surveillance. The teams you could see in teams hanging back behind that you cannot see. You couldnt drive anywhere do anything. It is always been a major problem of working in moscow. The cold war never stop for officers. Sodas moscow rules. We spent time in the office and bureau trying to look at smoke and make sense of it. One question in the back of our mind is how you cover in race responsibly cover a story like this. Are we spending too much time on it . Are we given it a responsible amount of attention . Too much or not enough . Can you walk through how the decisions have been made on how we go about the coverage and think about the story as a whole . One thing thats been remarkable is the fact that every time it look like it was petering out something happened and move forward. Whether that was disclosures about meetings earlier in the year intelligence the u. S. Had the comey firing, learning about the concerns, he had with his relationship with trump. Coming into the fall there were major indictments. We often lose track that the campaign trail chairman and National Security advisor were both in charge in this case. Sometimes we lose sight of it. What has kept us on the story is the story of the trump has continued to change. If the store they told in january 2017 have partially held up, then there would be as much to look at. The fact that its changed and we have learned more and more questions have come out, it forces us to continue to look and pride. Now are an interesting point where over the summer we had some anticipation of where it was going and who would be charged. Right now, we dont know. Maybe its over a few months with the president sitting down and being interviewed with mueller. Maybe mike flynn has a lot of information that we dont know about. We are at a phase with a story could peter out or go to the next level. History has always surprised us. You think about the day of the or the day after the election, i think the Deputy Foreign minister made a statement is like we were in contact throughout the whole campaign. On the spokeswoman said not true, not happen. That was telling from the beginning. The other thing is does the president just naturally make false statements. Or is there a reason why on this issue he has behaved the way he has . That remains to be seen. One question will be not only what is happened but what will happen. From the talk of what happened in 2016, there is another election coming up to share. Theyll be another president ial election in 2020. There be any reason for the russians not to do it they have done to not continue. This worked well. Is there any attention of lets make sure its not happening again. I think we need to report on whats going on in the government. To make sure it doesnt happen again. Theres been some lip service to it. Certainly the Intelligence Services of others are loaded to the possibility in a way they werent in 2016. We need to take a serious look at what the preparations have been. One thing that discourages these agencies from proposing major initiatives to tighten up Cyber Security or track russian activity more closely is that the president s keep saying russia is a hoax. It doesnt make you want to commit say we have a great idea were to spend time working on this russia idea. I suspect there has not been a lot done. The social media front our code to pressures there as well. These companies are judged by the stock market and their Monthly Average users. This is more of a factor for twitter than facebook. Theres estimates of 50 or more of users automated their bots. If twitter were to crackdown their Monthly Average users would dive and it could be a big disaster. Was like pulling teeth. I spent my summer looking at what the russians did on facebook and twitter. His pulling teeth to get cooperation. I dont get the feeling there certainly talking about things to prevent from happening again. Where these companies eventually paid attention is facebook discovered 100,000 with beds have been bought in rubles using a credit card that went straight to the Internet Research factory. So if the russians touches minimal precautions next to an used american credit card with fake american name its not clear these companies could actually detect the fake russian activity. The tear point, the president has ever said anything critical about putin. He criticizes all sorts of folks that has yet to criticize putin. Thats another question, if you think you have a question i like to ask when he should start lining up. Getting ready to ask when this policy implications here. If we have an attempt to sabotage the American Election lab my enemies have painted me as a kremlin stooges sonoma hands are tied. What are the realworld implications this has had. I can speak to the implications that its had the years i worked at the cia was 27 years. I want to claim back those two more years. It never really mattered who is president. The politics never really matter. I didnt usually know if the person i was working with had enough they were a republican or democrat and i didnt care. Is about the job in collecting information and giving it to the policymakers so they could analyze and take that and everything would move forward. Everything is suspect the fbi is suspect. The truth is hard to track down these days so its whose truth youre discussing. What i worry about is everything is becoming so ragged and torn apart that there cannot be consensus on where that grain of truth is. When youre given intelligence who doesnt trust it or use it in that president decides to take our head of cia and put his gyan, a guy who is not fiddling with the truth is what we have now that we see it. Mike pompeo the same thing said to not agree with the intelligence analysis say. Hes twisting the truth a bit. People know that. So pretty soon the value of cia intelligence round the world will take a huge hit. I dont how you come back from that. With the practical way . They have appointed their friends to be cia directors and political operatives, what in your mind is worse in this case are more damaging for the cia . The people working there today that i know the morale is through the floor. What is going on, they have always had great pride in the work they do. And the risk they take. The risk fast foreigners around the world. Those are the guys were going to get jailed and executed in shop. If you look at the stars just to last for five years, theres new rows each one representing someone who died trying to get information. Im not sure where it leads but its unhealthy. Whats going on at the fbi. I had a friend interviewing for the book, and fda sr. Officer. He said when trump said the fbi is in tatters because of comey he said it wasnt. We love comey. He ran a great shop was well respected. Its going to be in tatters if trump keeps it up because hes moving the key people out of the fbi. Maybe thats i said it was in tatters because only people liked comey. I wanted to throw out a curveball for people to contemplate. Is something that has bothered me for the past year, since the dossier became public and before that. That is, if michael did not go to prague that one in particular i spent time trying to prove or disprove because it had detail. Some things are vacant hard to nail down. That said he met with a guy who had an office in france. The question is if that is not true, who made it up . What occurred to me was this is not planted by some clinton operative. This was probably concocted by russian intelligence. When you think about christopher steele, the retired british agent calling his buddies who called their bodies in moscow to get the information, the fsb is capable of following those trails including them with this information. If this is a speculative hypothesis, we believe that russia carried out a successful Information Operation largely with Hillary Clinton. Also hedging their bets and carried out information with donald trump. Some of the dossier was put there by russians with the idea of casting a shadow over trump. If that happened i think everyone would agree it was extremely successful who it was against he did nothing or there was no collusion its daunting to think about this is a russian achievement. Thanks for making it more confusing. [laughter] i think youre taking double drink think to new highs and lows. Youre right, that couldve been a piece of us. Time will tell. How much of it actually checks out and how much they can disprove. Have they disproved any of it . I think not. They meaning the Trump Associates think theyve disproved a lot of it. I do not think they count. The final plug, my argument would be over the last year learn more about connections theres meetings or contacts and put contours to the story through the work of reporting. Then i agree the time will tell how they are viewed five or ten years from now. I would love to start taking questions. Please ask a question and make its assistant. Dont give a preamble or some statement. You spoke about collusion and obstruction, what about the Money Laundering . Is it important . Is trump and his presidency in some degree of risk as a result of that . It all taken initial stab. This has been part of not only whats in the dossier but one of the questions has been the extent that donald trump is compromise from years earlier with his business dealings his properties are golf courses with russian Money Laundering. Thus far the only Money Laundering aspect has of all paul manafort. And his dealings. The great question we dont know. Unfortunately were looking at muellers investigation from the outside. We would love to more no more than we do. What is his mandate how far would he take it. See only looking at the events of the Previous Year . Is he going to take a hard look and go down the rabbit hole was trumps finances and pass business dealings . Trump said that the red line and if he does that he might get fired. But if he closes the investigation without looking at it people will say he should up. We dont know the answer. Something with a lot of. We dont have subpoena power and he does. Its frustrating to look at Money Laundering. Its very difficult to get the goods. Thank you for putting the panel together. Without revisiting the upcoming election and diving into that more. Other patterns that can be applied to congressional races coming up . Either any beginnings of stories are starting to look at . The only thing comes to mind is this got little attention because the stories were so big because stories that may have been big got lost in the shuffle. This persona for russian intelligence which was calling him goose a for twopoint oh u. S. Intelligence concluded it was Russian Military intelligence, you could communicate by email or twitter and he had a customer service. Political loggers contacted him and said, what you have on this race happening in our state . He supply confidential documents from the Democratic Party to the bloggers and they have big impacts in several races. Whether well see repeated that are not is anybodys guess. 2016 do not serve up a lot of hard lessons for the government. There hard lessons for the media as well. How the media took some of this information and ran with it in weapon isis information by distributing it in the media without giving thoughts where it was coming from because usually the impulsive journalist will be if we think its credible it doesnt matter the source. For the questions of elections Going Forward the mediation look at itself and see its role in the impact it has on the stori stories. I have a question they be interested if you have any strong opinions. You mentioned the lowlevel sophistication required to carry out the attack, in particular interference on social media. Ive been working on a similar case of interference with respect to the cyber attack that precipitated the diplomatic crisis. Im curious what country youre looking at as the possible next instigators of this the farias interference . That is were question for my colleague and then for me. It seems to me without special expertise they clearly china has the capability, population, technology, everything, theyre probably watching closely to see how you play this game whether they were jump in an attempt to do any gaming of their own would be up there air. There many countries around the world. I think one thing striking about hacking is that its a game almost anyone can play on two things come to mind. North korea, a starving, bankrupt country that is proven adept at creating a network of hackers of major institutions. How to make money to pay off his student loans, but buffer 5 a fake a not fake but a domain on the internet called christian times newspaper. Com and found anti Hillary Clinton fake news created more clicks than anything else. So reset it out and it had an enormous impact and reach millions of people. May 202,000 and what was 20 hours work. My is also the exact same. From an intelligence perspective and from working with social media companies. Is there an online version of what russia did . Can we make a positive impact using these tools . Anyone want to take that . [laughter] we do not specialize in white hats there is, i read the other day about an effort to use social media to get factual information out. A very odd concept. [laughter] but you know, i can imagine that this might be somewhat in a something that will catch on. Kind of educating the public using these tools. Which are very powerful and they have done some good in the world. Maybe there will be a more sophisticated time to use them in a positive way to inform the public before they vote. Is there enough incentive for these companies to weigh in, im in a sort of up to this point, stood back and said that we are a force for good. They have gotten a reckoning but the question is, has that sunk in or not . Facebook has, is enough anyone here is taken advantage of this but you can go to facebook to the help page and find a place where you can ask facebook whether you had been exposed to any of the fake russian pages. And they will give you an answer. Theyre beginning to respond in a minimal way. A few more questions, sir. Is simple question, what are the implications if donald trump is found guilty of other obstruction . If it depends on what you say is guilty. You cannot indict the president so what Robert Mueller can do is he can send information to congress and congress would then deal with that in an impeachment way. The house will decide whether to impeach him or get rid of him. That is sort of the path that it would take. And that largely depends on who controls capital health. When mueller, if he were to conclude the investigation in april and give this to the health of the republicans and deal with it. So that is what i think in a sense, donald trump will be in many ways running again for president come november because i think there is a large belief that the democrats, probably regardless of what Robert Mueller does will do everything they can to go after him and try and take him down. Add to that, just thinking about this in terms of recent revelations maybe about his psychological and mental state. When you see just in your own opinions, would there be more to it in terms of what he can do personally . I mean like what you mean . In terms of what could he pardon himself or im not sure. Im just he constantly surprises us every day. Issuing the abilities always outdo himself and keep the story going. We often turn around in the office and look at each other and realize maybe it is very boring if youre not around. Alexa distracted something is going on. When it starts getting too hot or they start getting too close. He owes something to throw out there to get everyone excited about. He has so many things that he can throw out there at this point including this great big button on his desk. I think that is where i worry about what he might do if it starts closing in on him. I really do. Im not sure he has limits but most of our children are taught when they are about five years old. The question relates to what other people have asked about moneylaundering, possibly sanctions. There are several caps to the tax returns. And the k ones for Public Safety has been doing business with. Do you know of any press organization or other organization willing, are they, who is trying to get into the public view through lawsuits, all of you have been liable. Will you have a gift that you will be. And all of you have been liable and no one has come back. The near times brent has been brand has been damaged. The Washington Post brand has been damaged. Etc. Etc. The question is do you know of any organization with the concrete legal effort to try and get his tax returns somewhere into the Legal Process and to that, when do you think people who believe in ballasts will take the gloves off . Sorry, say that last part again . When you think people who believe in balance, are going to take the gloves off and start going the Legal Process that he has always threatened other people . Lets jump in there. [laughter] was well question on the tax return. I think it is a great question youre asking. I think the answer may be that tax returns are privileged and confidential by law. Very well protected. We have fantasized that some irs employee with access to the tax returns might drop it into a plain brown envelope and make our day. But, so far no luck not that we are asking the irs employees in the audience. But accountants would only be subject to civil penalties. I think in some way, if that has not happened you cannot ask for them under the freedom of information act. Im not sure that we have any notion of a great Legal Process by which we could demand his tax returns. But we will think about it. Somebody want to take on the, when are we going to take the gloves off . Is it possible that Robert Mueller can get the tax returns . Do you think he has them . Is widely accepted amongst legal experts you know in a whitecollar case. If you are investigating someone you would have the tax returns. It has never been reported that he has the tax returns but it is hard to believe that he wouldnt. Thank you. Good. When are you taking the gloves off . On you know what the president has done with us, he criticizes us a lot. But i think we all feel every day that our mission has never been as clearly defined as it is now. And you know the interest in what we do has never been as great. For us, it is a pretty unique time. I think that we realize we are in a very particular point. It gets us out of the bed in the morning. In terms of brand damage, the gentleman said that the near times brent has been damaged. I think it is a little more complicated than that. I think the tragic element of whats happened in recent years is that the New York Times brand has been severely damaged with maybe 20 or 30 percent of americans who dont read the New York Times but they hear about it in other places including the president s twitter account. Andrew now really do believe that if it is in the New York Times it is probably false. And that is very painful but the flipside is also true. Many readers of the New York Times i think assume that if something is in fox news live is probably false. Back in the good old days, three or four networks. One or two newspapers on the lawn each morning. Everyone was sort of forming the opinions on the same set of facts. Now many people have completely different ideas of what has happened in the last couple of years. And that really is kind of a disturbing divide in the country. I would agree. I think that donald trump is accelerated something i was already ongoing for some time. And made this even more. At the same time i think he has, i think it is been a pretty effective, two words, fake news. That has been very effective tool to sort of go at the media at large. And people who are maybe not regular consumers of news you may not even have a particular love for him i think there may be, seeds planted. The fake news etc. I think the question is the damage it will do and whether it is lasting. This is a little bit of a followup for the white hat question. But this is fairly serious in the know your job is to find out what happened. But what struck me was the first time in a conversation, a friend said, it is not the russians fault. The americans let this happen. This is how the run the campaign, this is how polarized you are, this is what your people get their news, this is their level of civic education. So, you know, if we had to check for a threejudge name one thing to start to prevent this in the future, what would that be . And if we come up emptyhanded, isnt that scary . I will be brief. I think that, i happen to think that nobody, this election has been probably more closely scrutinized than any election in recent memory in terms of what happened. What was done. Outside of peoples view. Certainly, the Election Results have generated a lot of intense emotions and a lot of people. And the level of engagement people had that they did not have before. And i think that people are taking a lot less for granted about how the elections work. This is a very basic answer but in essence, the basic understanding of not only the importance of elections and understanding and getting information about the elections but also not take for granted that they are just going to work. And that there is no one outside trying to influence. I think at the very least in 2020, people will be aware of this Going Forward and they will be attuned to it. That is not a bad thing. I think facebook has really deal with the issue of fake news and how do they communicate to folks something comes from a reputable news source or it does not. And that is a really hard question and it gets into the first amendment, political expression and i certainly do not have the answer to it. But i think that there has to be a way for the average person to say okay, i should believe that and no, should not believe that. You know, from my point of view, i see so many of my colleagues and my friends and family who are engaged now. They were never really engaged in politics before. Women, one obvious group, the power of women today is not to be underestimated. I was in that womens march the day after the inauguration. The next day, emails were flying. What can we do . Where should we, how do we begin . Run for office, get involved. I think that will be one of the good things that comes out of this. I think you have a much more engaged population in america the next time we have an election. If you look at the alabama election recently, the black woman in alabama descends to stand up and they voted what 97 percent or something. It was an incredible number and showed the power that the population can have if they want to try and take things into their own hands. Maybe that is a positive. The other thing i will add is to reinforce your point that the russians were operating by and large with american materials. And literally if you look at those facebook pages which were for gun rights and antiimmigrants and black lives matter and antiblack lives matter. All of those things, many of the means these posters that went up on the facebook pages were actually stolen from american activists. They did not have to concoct a. Said they were pouring gasoline on a fire that was already raging in many ways. Whether that will make people think again about whether they are being exploited, whether they want to think a little harder before qualifying the opposition. That remains to be seen. The last question. Then it is time to wrap up. Sure, mike and mark and you have written extensively about russian sanctions. Specifically conversations that general flynn had with the Russian Ambassador and so im really curious to hear one, we know that flynn lied about the phone calls and details with kislyak. How do we it before the president was in office, he was working against the Obama Administration decision to place sanctions on the russians. And does that play into any case brought forth now by Robert Mueller . I will take a crack at this. In essence, what theyll be looking at if theyre going to try and make a case. Mike flynn should not have been talking about sanctions before they were in office. And whether he lied or not. They did something with the logan act which is on the books and it says that one at a time and youre not supposed make Foreign Policy if youre not in office. And so, if Robert Mueller really wanted to make a case, suppose he could but most people say it is a, it is weak law, is not something that any prosecutor. It is not really been brought in cases in the past. If mueller tried to bring a logan act case he would get laughed at. Maybe theres a way to tie this in with other things. But the question of whether you know there has been enough gray area in the past in terms of transitions, reaching out to foreign governments, trying to make the case about what they will do. I think based on what we know, it is still pretty gray about whether there will be actual violations. In terms of flynn. Because this goes to the Vice President and the fbi. The same question of Michael Flynn is the same donald trump. Did Michael Flynn lie because he just lied about Different Things oh did he lied because of Something Else . We still do not know what that answer is. And my guess is we will get it at some point. And then this large question hang of the whole thing about what was the true motivation there . And what was you know why would you let something about a sensitive subject. To be continued. Indeed. Thank you to our panel. Thank you for your time and thank you all for coming out tonight. Please check our website we have lots of events and politics culture, arts and sciences. Check nytimes. Com events. [applause] tonight on cspan2, journalist sam quinones at a talk on opiate abuse. And later a house hearing on issues facing Border Patrol agents. Journalist, sam quinones is the author of dreamland. An investigation of opioid abuse in america. Including the role of the pharmaceutical industry and mexican drug cartels. He spoke about opioid abuse as a witness at a senate hearing. Senator Lamar Alexander chose Health Education labor and Pensions Committee. This is two hours. The Senate Committee on Health Education labor and Pensions Committee will come to order. Debbie talk about the Opioid Crisis the number one Public Health changes good out witness todays sam quinones. The author of dreamland, a true tale of americas Opioid Epidemic. Senator murray and i will each have an Opening Statement and then i will introduce the witness. Then we will hear from mr. Sam quinones and senators will each have five minutes of questions. This is the only witness i suggest if you want to take more than five minutes, to say whatever he has to say, we welcome that but there will be plenty of conversation back and forth for members of the committee. Mr. Sam quinones it is unusual to have a single witness at our hearings. But this is an unusual topic. One that you quote a professor is probably the worst manmade epidemic in history. The challenge this crisis presents has captured the attention of every member of this committee. Your research and writing has been a claim for their depth and breadth. This is what we call a bipartisan hearing. Most of them are. One in which democrats and republicans have agreed on the topic. On the importance and on the witness. It is my hope that we senators will restrain our habit of lecturing one another about Health Insurance and focus today on the topic. Which is the Opioid Crisis. This epidemic kills more americans every day than car accidents. Each of our states when reminded about almost every day. Yesterday i dropped by a meeting of the tenancy governors residence in nashville. Has about our state institutions involved in training doctors were planning how to discourage the over prescription of opioids. The governor told me that in our state, is. 6 million people, it was 7. 6 million opioid prescriptions written in 2016. Even though the state has reduced the amount of opioids prescribed, the number of Overdose Deaths is up because of the abuse of fentanyl. A synthetic opioid. Rather than spend more time establishing the crisis i want to focus today on what we can do about it. There are two things im hoping to learn. First, when 100 million americans live with pain, 25 million of them with chronic or severe pain, why is it not a good idea to continue to find the socalled holy grail of medicine, a nonaddictive Pain Medicine . And stronger communities are the ultimate solution as he often suggest in your book, what can a Central Government in washington do that actually helps . Now my first question, you have a chapter in your book entitled searching for the holy grail. Finding a nonaddictive Pain Medicine. I have actually read your book. I think that there are a number of others here who have an even brought it with them. This search for the holy grail began you safe 75 years ago in 1928 with a committee on problems with drug dependence. That was the goal as you described it. Quote . The best scientists undulate extracting the painkilling attributes from the morphine molecule while discarding its miserable addictiveness . This effort to find a better way to treat pain you say, led to a revolution and attitudes toward pain treatment. First using opiates to relieve pain for dying patients. Then for patients with chronic pain. Then with a multitude of mexican gangsta pain clinics, overprescribing doctors and enterprising Drug Companies spiraling into the addiction and consequences that we find today. At least twice before this Conference Doctor francis collins, head of the National Institutes of health has predicted that the holy grail that was first sought 75 years ago is now within reach. Last month he said perhaps within five years. With our encouragement doctor collins has organized researchers in partnership with private companies to speed up the process. The food and drug and ministration commissioner was on board to fasttrack the effort within the bounds of safety and efficacy. I read at least some of your post to say that this holy grail may never be found. Some Scientists Say it should not be found. I hope you tell us what you think about this. Should we not continue to try to find nonaddictive penn medicine to relieve suffering without addiction . Is that not the obvious antidote to Opioid Epidemic . The second area i would hope to learn about is what we can do from washington dc. We have tried in important ways to adjust the ravages of this crisis. Which we have all experienced in our state. In 2016 Congress Passed the comprehensive addiction and recovery act. In the 21st century cures act to give states and communities those on the front lines, the tools and resources they need to combat this crisis. For example, a provision for sinners warren and treadwell was included that made it clear pharmacist could only fill parts on prescriptions like oxycodone, and opioid. That way a manipulative sons pain prescription after his wisdom teeth surgery can only ask for three days with the pills. Instead of 30 days he was prescribed. In addition to encourage the development of a nonaddictive Pain Medicine, cures including more than 1 billion in state grants. We are considering additional funding for treatment. And to discover alternative Pain Medicines. We have held hearings on wellness. Such as exercising, eating healthier and help people lead healthier lives. And what incentives would help people make those lifestyle changes. But you and i apparently have at least one thing in common. I am a skeptic of washingtons capacity to solve problems that are essentially problems of communities, families and lifestyle. You say that the uncured crisis is a problem of society. When we lose our sense of community, we become easy prey for quick external solutions for complex problems like opioids. In your words quote i believe more strongly than ever that the antidote to ireland is community. Make sure people in the neighborhood do things together. Break down those barriers that keep people isolated. In my own experience in public like a thing time as governor ive been increasingly convinced of the problemsolving ability of communities. With good jobs, good schools, Strong Families where everyone seems to be interested in the wellbeing of everyone else. Whenever i try to step in our center to solve a problem, in the end it was doctor creating an environment in which communities can themselves fix problems. Not sending in single shot solutions from a distance. For example, after spending years on state reforms in education as governor, i ended up traveling the state to create 143rd better Schools Community task force because i believe the communities who wanted good schools can have them and those who did not, would not. I held the same views as we have fixed no child left behind in 2015 when we restored more decisions to classroom teachers, School Boards and states. So, exactly what does congress do from washington d. C. About this Opioid Crisis . This committee has jurisdiction over a significant amount of what youve written about in dreamland. Not the spending of money. That belongs in the appropriations committee. We are eager to hear your testimony and your solutions. Senator murray. Thank you mr. Chairman. Im glad to be continuing our discussion on this important issue. I know our witness today has been following the epidemic crisis. Mr. Sam quinones, thank you for joining us. As we like to welcome your wife and daughter who i assume the city behind you. Im glad that they were able to be here with you today. I look forward to hearing your perspective on how we can better help our communities like this crisis and support all of those who have been impacted. I really appreciate the investigative work that you have done to help shed light on this challenge. Of course, im sure that you would agree the rise of the epidemic is broader in scope than any one book can tell. Their people from all backgrounds that have stories about the harm this is done. The arkansans lost children to an overdose. Children that have lost parents to an overdose. Veterans in chronic pain struggling with addictions, doctors treating babies born addicted to opioids and a lot more. I heard these heartbreaking stories firsthand traveling around my home state of washington. And meeting with doctors and families and communities fighting this disease. I was visiting a local hospital in longview. A community in my state and the staff told me almost 1 out of every two babies born, they have mothers that struggle with substance abuse. That was astonishing and heartbreaking. But it is unfortunately not the only evidence of this epidemic. Since 2000, no 10,000 people in Washington State alone have died of opioid overdose. This is not just happening in longview. This is happening in local hospitals across the nation. We are losing 91 people every day to opioid overdose. When i say this epidemic affects everyone, i do not just mean the individuals facing opioid addiction. There are other victims as well. The epidemic hurts families. It leaves children struggling to cope with the impact of their parents addictions. At least many of them in foster homes. Parents shattered with the heartbreak of the childrens illness. It leaves many struggling with the financial cost of good misuse and treatment and recovery as well. And this epidemic hurts our communities as a whole. It takes up resources, Public Health, hospitals and Law Enforcement dictates workers of the local economy. It takes a full on the morale of small towns and big cities alike with each new tragedy. We are behind the curve on fighting this endemic. One of the story gusted out to me in the book, was about a state employee for Washington Department of labor and industries. A woman named jamie may. Jamie was a pharmacist charged with overseeing the cases of workers who were receiving Prescription Drugs for injuries. After six months she noticed that some of these workers were dying from the same painkillers that they had been prescribed. The paper she published in 2005 about the uptick in high strength open prescriptions and deaths was one of the first papers in the country document the crisis we are facing today. She published the paper over a decade ago. And it shows we been fighting this battle for far too long. We have to do more. Im glad we have taken some necessary steps. In 2016 Congress Passed the 21st century cures act which included nearly 1 billion of funding for states to address the Opioid Crisis to prevent and treat and the recovery act. This sport specific outreach for veterans and pregnant and postpartum women. They extended access for treatment and much more. There is a lot more to do. Along with many of my colleagues i hope that we can move forward funding in the upcoming budget for appropriations agreements. First responders state and local officials Treatment Professionals and families have made it clear continued federal funding is key to addressing the crisis. Unfortunately we have not had a lot of talk from administration on the spigot to see the president take the serious action that the emergency demands and he promised families on the campaign trail. The white house is on council of economic advisors released a report estimating the Economic Cost of the oakland crisis to be over 500 billion just for 2015. Adjusting the problem this will be taking an enormous investment of time energy and focus and robust funding. It is the Third Quarter paycheck of the president that will not cut it. Our communities are crying out for serous solutions. Not stunts. Im eager to see the committee continue the bipartisan approach and to take substantive action to address the epidemic over the next few months. Mr. Chairman, i look forward to working with you to have all of our members bring their ideas those we can work on moving policies to help our families and communities. Plan to do a lot more to find prevention efforts and treatment programs and builds on the gains we have made. This means immediately providing supplementing funding states need to implement evidencebased tools that can help turn the epidemic around. We need to ensure that local stakeholders and partners, the people on the ground we know what we are best in their communities, works best in their communities will respond to the spirit also means going beyond prevention and treatment and recovery. After work to support that only the individuals facing addiction but the families and communities were suffering as well. Im interested to hear your perspective on this today and how we do that. Im grateful for you coming here today to testify before us. Because if we are going to beat this opioid addiction we have to fund and enact solutions that are as comprehensive as the challenge. Thank you again very much for having this and i look forward to working with you in our members. Thank you, senator murray and thank you for working in his way to have such an important hearing. I am pleased to welcome sam and his family today. Thank you for taking the time to be here. Mr. Sam quinones has 30 Years Experience as a journalist and author. Written extensively on the oakland crisis and drug trafficking. The author of three acclaimed books. Most recent book dreamland, the true tale of americas Opioid Epidemic. It won the National Book critics circle award for general nonfiction. Early in his career mr. Sam quinones was the recipient of the Maria Moors Cabot prize. The International Award in journalism for his work covering latin america. It was also the recipient of a fellowship awarded to outstanding journalists who pursue stories and the Public Interest be welcome again mr. Sam quinones. You have 10 minutes to give your testimony and then the senate is a look at both to have a conversation with you. There we go. Clearly im a rookie here so a chairman, senator murray and honorable members of this committee. I would like to thank you for these hearings on our National Epidemic of opioid addiction. And for allowing the honor of addressing you. Im very happy to be here with my wife and daughter. For part of producing dreamland. And without him the book could never have been finished. This is the deadliest drug scourge lived on in this country. Hitting areas of the country that have never seen this kind of drug problem. It is the first in modern america to be spread not by mafias, not by street dealers but by doctors. Overprescribing pain pills convince they were doing right by their patients. Urged on by the pharmaceutical industry. By the medical establishment and indeed urged on by us. By American Health consumers who too often wanted to quit into tranquilizers could not have dreamed of inciting the kind of torment and death that we have visited upon ourselves to this overuse of opiates. These drugs are a symbol. For our era. For almost 4 decades, we have assaulted the private sector, the individuals. While we ridiculed government was inefficient, incompetent and wasteful. We admired wealthy Business People regardless of whether the way they made their money produce anything of value for our country and our communities. We have i believe a second gilded age. This epidemic of addiction to a class of drugs that thrives on isolation reflects all of that. This epidemic since cost has been borne by the public sector. All of its profits have been private. I believe that this is about issues far deeper than drug addiction. It is about the effects of this very cultural shift. It is also about isolation in areas rich and poor heard about the hollowing out the small town america and the middle class of that civilization our society. And it is about a culture that acts as a buying stuff is the path to happiness. I believe we got into this because we believe problems can be attacked in isolation. With one magical Silver Bullet. A pill for all of our pain. A jail cell for every addict. Results of the private and not the public in the communal. And in so doing we rid ourselves of things so central to us that they have no price. We have been invaded by cheap junk as a result. We dug up dreamland and replace it with a strip mall. Things like that requested america for years now. Heroin is what you get when you destroy dreamland. I believe isolation, the natural habitat, i believe this epidemic therefore is calling on us to revert these decades of isolation and come together as americans. I believe more strongly than ever that the antidote to heroin is not an officer it is not naloxone. No one is saving the world alone. The good news in all of this i believe is that there is no solution. There are Many Solutions. Each small, each must be tinkered with, improve. Some may be discarded. Each must be funded fully and for a long time. But the good news is that none of them is sexy. None will do the trick alone. I believe that across america today, communities are finding these solutions. The more they band together the more they leveraged all of that talent and energy, bring in ptas, pastors, artists and athletes. Recovering addicts and primary care doctors. Librarians and chamber of commerce. The more cops and Public Health nurses go out for a beer. Bridge that cultural chasm between them. And i believe is a thing that this is happening in counties across america. It is my opinion that supply has ignited all of this. We did not have this demand. This widespread addiction until we unleashed a large supply of powerful legal narcotics on the public for the last two decades. I believe it is essential that doctors reassess how and to home and in what quantities they prescribed these drugs. That does not mean just cutting people off for on high doses of these drugs and leaving them to fend for themselves. It does mean Insurance Companies to reimburse prepaid strategies that do not involve narcotics. Allowing doctors a wider array. Anymore education in both Pain Management and Addiction Treatment in med school. I have to say that i think it is delusional to spend time and money on yet another wall along the usmexico border hoping that this will somehow stop the supply. These are coming in through areas with walls already. I believe the wall will corrode the only thing that will truly stop these drugs from coming into the country. That is a deep respect both but also forthright, sometimes blunt, certainly honest, patient with mexico that will lead to it finally becoming a kind of neighbor and partner we can work with effectively. And in so doing, become the kind of neighbor the country needs a bus. Another wall to me seems is just like heroin. It feels good for the moment but it will leave us worse in the long run. Another Silver Bullet for a complicated adult problem. Sometimes the solutions are about the mundane mechanics of governing. We should find new ways of cutting Corners Office around the country and extend the National Forensic pathologist. Which is dangerously dwindling. This epidemic spread because so many of the offices are so poorly funded. I believe we must expand pretreatment options. One place to do this ironically, crucially i believe is jail. Consider how the country will be helped by transforming jail into a place of nurturing, and recovery. Instead of a place of tedium. It becomes an asset instead of a liability. And this is happening. Particularly i would note in the state of kentucky. I would also like to add all across america are families that are suffering due to the addition of a loved one or the loss of that loved one. I believe they are a raw material to be marshaled, harnessed in this fight. Many now want to be involved. Need to be involved. To help solve the last wounds that will last a lifetime. I believe that us centers can help this by recording them, recognizing them, giving them platforms from which to tell the stories. Maybe its because im a reporter but i believe that true stories, the awful stigma of addiction will be reduced. Im happy to elaborate on any of this. Before i do that though i want finally come to urge you to view this as an opportunity. View this as an opportunity to revive those regions hammered by globalization and free trade. The roots of our National Epidemic of narcotic addiction lie there. By the epidemic itself stands in the way of the revival. Many of these regions cannot revive until enough of their people can pass a drug test to fill new jobs. And this is not only a story of a drug addiction. It is a story of economic affliction. As politicians, i suspect a natural response for crisis like this is to look about for things that you can do quickly. To show constituents you are taking action and i believe it is entirely understandable. I would caution however, against believing in shortterm responses. Karen and joseph this is only a start. Everything about this issue has taught me the importance of longterm Community Responses and commitment. I believe American History offers us to templates for action. From what you might take guidance and inspiration. First is the Marshall Plan to rebuild europe after world war ii. Second is the Space Program. Each involved government on a private sector acting in concert over many years bringing money, brands, energy and of course longterm focus to bear. Each achieved and annihilated good for the country. Those were about doing things that seemed far beyond our own shortterm self interest. The Marshall Plan was about building up ravaged regions to allow them to function independently. While containing the viral spread of soviet communism. It allowed reborn countries to prosper and contribute to the world again. The Marshall Plan for american recovery, will focus on rebuilding reasons ive been part independence and ravaged by devastation to contain the viral spread of addiction. There are Space Program we were inspired as a people. To spend years and dollars all to achieve something no previous generation ever thought possible. We ended up far beyond the moon. The spillover economic benefit increase of knowledge, and simple human inspiration is beyond calculation. Seems to me, that we might profitably apply these examples. The Marshall Plan and the Space Program to regions of forgotten americans with this problem began. Lets do it perhaps not because of it is easy but as jfk, he said because it is hard. Because that is what americans do and have always done at their greatest. Like our Space Program, i believe such an effort will have to last for years to be effective. To focus far beyond immediate goal of drug addiction and on the more profound problems of Community Destruction and the hollowing out of stretches of the country. Im here today to urge you to see this not only as the catastrophe that it is but also as a gift that can be. And also it offers opportunities to do something great. It is an opportunity to bridge the Political Polarization that is so annoying at the country. It is one of the few issues today that can do that. Do not miss this opportunity. It does not come around often. This calling i suspect is the very reason many of you got into public servicein the first place. And youre lucky i think you be here. You will be remembered for acting when acting was not easy to use. If you do, i believe your hometowns will thank you your counties will think. And we, your countrymen and women will thank you long after you are gone. With that, i am happy to talk about anything you want. Thank you. We will begin now have a fiveminute round of questions. I will say to the senators, ill try to stick to five minutes because we have lots of senators who want to ask questions. Ill be glad to stay for a second round of questions if anyone would like to. Senator paul. Mr. Sam quinones thank you for coming, the book was great. My pleasure. When you write about your nuptials will be different how much it will affect people i think have a best have read your book at least. With the public policy. So here. When i was a kid i used to visit my grandparents in pittsburgh. There is a big pool like dreamland. And it was in the 30s and an amazing pool. 100 yards along with the slide in the center. The community was surrounding the pool and activities. As a renter the book we tried to think what can we do better or change . The idea that big pharma lied and committed fraud is part of the book and part of the problem. They were punished but we need to make sure that people cannot lie and that is fraud and it is punished and it is preempted in some way. Some of that to be federal and simply state law. As a physician, i continue to become more and more alarmed by our profession being part of the problem. Try to fix this. In kentucky we monitor. You can type into that computer if patients need to find out if they are seeking different doctors. Have they gotten opioids somewhere else two days before . We have come to the bank doctors. The bed doctors south of portsmith. They are mostly gone. The pill mills are no longer in kentucky and yet, we have a concept of the mountains that has 21,000 people. Last year, said 2. 8 million doses of hydrocodone and oxycodone. This was after all of the stuff. So everyone knows this is a problem. Everyone knows more people are dying from car accident that is a horrible problem. And it was were strings county pieces Medicaid Expansion and has an 11 percent increase. When we look at we do we say lets have a plan. You have to think about how we spend the money and what we do because we want more people to help healthcare. To be extended medicaid. If you look at the expense of medicaid and to put the map overlying the United States, you have an overlay of the heroin problem and okay problem. It is related to poverty and expansion of healthcare. In your book you talk about you can get three dollars, you do not pay 200. You just pay three dollars a month and you can get it and trade it and all that. So we do have to figure out more rules on this. We have some new rules in kentucky on acute management. But i think the hard part is the chronic. If im your physician and you have been on it forever for low back pain, has i get off of it . Or how do i get you Something Else . Do you just choose another dr. . The question is, will know the knowledge. People have read your book. You know theres a problem out there. We have done changes and that we still have this enormous prescription opioid problem. And so, would you think that we do beyond that . I agree with the community more local and federal is probably better. We still, how do we fix the medical aspect of this . How did go a step beyond where we are . Well, i mean theres a lot here that is a massive question. I think they are smarter people than either contribute to it. I think one of the reasons that you find a correlation between heroin overdose in Medicaid Expansion is because more access to medical care needs more access to fills. And some doctors prescribed this as a solution. It seems to me the crucial in all of this is that we get back to what we were doing in the 1970s. That is, where Insurance Companies were reimbursing a wide array of strategies for pain. They have cut back significantly in some areas give one point it was all across the country. Some Insurance Companies are stepping up a little more. Tamia gets back to what the dr. Has available to him or her at the point of contact with the patient and to me that is, it feels like a crucial step. Every place i go, it is a speak on this topic. I run into doctors that tell me they just do not have much in the way of other options to provide. I guess the hard part of this is, i live in a county where we have four percent unemployment and the employers come to me and say we cannot find enough workers for work ethic and that are drugfree. I county with 30 percent of the people do not work and 30 percent of people are disabled. And in my county four percent of the people are disabled. The problem is will all have big hearts could be say lets help the disabled and unemployed. Yet we give them stuff but perhaps you become a nonworker, a permanent nonworker, beginning with this cycle where it is much more difficult. I agree. Map to find out how to do this with a heart and a brain we have work requirements and you are only temporarily disabled until you are back in the force. And so we do have to be careful about how we do it. So we do not have perverse incentives. Thank you senator. Mr. Sam quinones come because the time clock on the senators. Everybody will be very interested having long conversations with you. We are going to try and wrap each segment up in five minutes. Then well keep going as long as we can. Senator murray. Thank you very much for your very compelling testimony and thoughts. Specifically here i want to talk about the federal government to replay very Critical Role in preventing and tracking and solving this epidemic and in some areas, has truly unmatched capacity and reach to be able to affect broad change. One example is the centers for Disease Control and prevention. They provide funding today to 45 states and washington dc. They support Prescription Drug monitoring programs. They are invested in money muchneeded Public Awareness campaign. And they manage a Critical National Surveillance Program. Which is the only Surveillance Program to capture nonfatal overdoses as well as fatal overdoses. And he uses some innovative ways to get time layer data. That Public Awareness Program Actually started under the Obama Administration back in 2016 to raise awareness of the Opioid Crisis and the funding states actually personalize and disseminate the messaging. This administration has repeatedly requested cuts to cdc budgets. So wanted to ask you, you have mentioned in your writing that we need quality Data Collection and raising awareness and Community Spirit can you talk about programs like that in cdc . Yes. I suggest that is probably a good idea. I would also say that i think we need to greatly expand the amount of money we provide for research. Addiction and Pain Management. All of this is part of all of these Many Solutions and when i talked about the federal governments role in all of this, it is in no way to suggest that it has a dominant role or that i believe the important stuff is going on very often a local level. And the role of the federal government might well be to just simply facilitate. Make it easier their lives. And i think cdc has a number of proposals and programs that i think are extraordinarily effective. I would say that when i was doing this book, i found almost nobody wanted to talk about the success for government workers. This was the first line of defense in this when nobody really knew about this topic. In nobody really cared. I thought there was an enormous contract to write a book and put my family in jeopardy for story no one cared about the people who really did care. Were working on this from the beginning, cost, corners, cdc, dea, prosecutors, Public Health nurses, all of whom are gaining earning a government salary. Many of whom at the local level. But i believe the folks do a remarkable in fact i was a crime reporter. I am a crime report if its not right or the healthcare before i wrote this book. And my overall feeling is one of awe for these folks. They have done with gangs. You have written about the importance of Medicaid Expansion. To make sure that patients get medication assisted treatment. Katie responded to part of this very complex crisis. In fact, Medicaid Expansion about 1. 6 million previously uninsured people with Substance Use disorder to get the health care and the treatment for Mental Health substance that they need to fix this. He talked about the importance of medicaid . Medicaid expansion provided drug treatment for people did not have it. Hundreds of thousands of people in different states. It is extraordinarily important i think. I know people are in different communities and enormously helped by this. I do not want to downplay what senator paul was talking about. Which is that we do have increases in overdose when that happens. And i think one of the reason for that, my hunch is that in too many communities, pills are still the only drug or medical treatment. Important part of that is also the, to support Mental Health and everything else. Of course. And when you get more access to healthcare, there are other things that come along with it. I think one thing that does come along with it is that reliance still to this day,. We have dropped prescribing but it is still at about 2006 levels and almost triple what it was in late 1990s. To me that means, that we probably still relied far too much on these. That said of course, i do not understand the impulse to strip away Medicaid Expansion. Particularly in areas where this problem is so intensely felt and to me it feels like these are regions that desperately need the services that they have been provided through Medicaid Expansion. For drug treatment being primary. Thank you senator murray. Senator collins. Thank you. First of all, let me thank you for writing such an important book. Thank you. The possibilities, what has been discouraging to me is despite much greater Public Awareness and much more money, and much greater intentions that the problem does not seem to be getting much better. One possible communitybased approach was described in the morning sentinel. This was an waterville, maine. It struck a chord with me because Law Enforcement officials in my state tell me that their jail intake rooms resemble hospital emergency rooms. What some police and prior police in maine including in waterville, scarborough, and other areas. They are telling addicts if they come in with the drugs, and turn them in, they will place them in treatment facilities. And this is a whole different approach for Law Enforcement to take. Rather than locking people up, helping them to get the help that they need. And it is also very communitybased that you have suggested in your book. In your experience, have you seen that type of program work better than the traditional approach . A couple of things and i would say. First of all, in reference to the first point senator, i think we need to keep in mind that this problem has been festering for 20 years. 20 years. People come small time and say why is this