Continues to bring authors to our community and our new Digital Community during these challenging times. Every week we are hosting events under crowd page and our Event Schedule appears on on our events we could also sign up for email newsletter and browser shelves from home for this evenings discussion we will have some time for a few questions for it if you have a question for a speaker at any time during the talk tonight, go to the q a button at the top of your screen. We have limited time for questions tonight but well get through as many as time allows. If you like to buy a copy of cry havoc. There will be a link. All book spots support Harvard Bookstore. Thank you for your support during this time. There also be a link for donations in the chat if you like to give Additional Support to Harvard Bookstore. Your purchases and financial contributions make the virtual author series possible and now more than ever supports the future of landmark independent bookstore. Thank you for tuning in an incredible staff at booksellers at harvard we appreciate your support now and always. And finally as you may have experience in virtual gatherings these past few much technical issues may arise. We will do our best to resolve it as quickly as cancer thank you in advance your patience and understanding. Nine please introduce tonight speaker, michael is the former mayor of charlottesville, virginia he is worked as rights of turning in his sleep fathers overcoming extremism projects but he is the author of two books, the fight to save democracy from its worst enemies and becoming madison, the extraordinary origins of the least likely founding father. He will be joining conversation with houston city counselor Amanda Edwards and former house of representatives Mickey Edwards. They will be discussing michaels new book, cry havoc which recounts a story of white supremacist actions in charlottesville during the summer of 2017 that left one antiracist protester dead and the entire country wondering what the trump era has brought to the forefront. The reviews called the book deeply introspective it is a complex, disturbing valuable tale of a racial disharmony, government failure, and one mans frantic attempt to save the day. And now i am so happy to turn things over to tonight speaker, michael, amanda, mickey, the digital podium is issuer thank you for coming. I am Mickey Edwards im going to to start things first. I want to tell you it is really a pleasure to be able to do this to be with amanda and michael both good friends. But especially because this book is so timely. Actually mike it would have been, i thought at the time right after charlottesville right after this happened if this book came out would be great but its even more important today because of whats developed since. There was a point in your book which we will get to and you will get to where you talk about what happened in charlottesville is like a firestorm which could serve as a crucible for change as a result of that and more so with what happened after words. I think it is really a timely and important book now. One of the things that moved me when i read this and also as i reflect myself i spend a lot of time as you all do on worrying about how it is we can protect our liberal democracy. Which is not only a democracy in terms of the facts we go to the polls, would choose who are leaders are, and ultimately we are in charge. But also it has these various pieces with deliberation compromise rule of law, innocent until proven guilty, the free press. All of these pieces that are really in danger at this moment. We have a very significant number of people in this country who, who know what outcome they want. And the process just gets in the way. The process is what liberal democracy is about. I love the book. One of the things i hope you talk about because it really resonated with me as we are seeing as everyone knows, who knows me i hate political parties. And we tend to think of things in a different way but with two sides. In charlottesville on two sides there was the right wing protesters, White Nationalist, whatever you want to call them. There is also the people came to protest against the protesters to try to block them from doing damage. But what i was struck by in your book that is so important to where we are in america today, there is a third group. Thats the people of charlottesville. You talked about anything back to that time and your memories of it you are drawn to the people there that you knew that you led as mayor. And the effect on them. There are people on the right and there were people on the left and a good large part of americas not on the right or left, just hoping to be able to make it to be able to have enough money in the bank to take care of themselves, to be able to be treated fairly, freely, equitably. There are a lot of people out there that is a big part of what happens in charlottesville. When i read what you wrote but i had not thought about that much. One of the points i want to put on the table and see where youre going to go with this, as we move forward we have a tendency where ever we are to look for a leader, someone who is going to step up, be in charge the current president says only i can fix this he sent a pretty good job of only he can mess it up. But we look for the great leader is going to come in and save us and that is dangerous. That is where you get tyrants all over the world. One of the things you did im going to stop here and give it to you is the mayor of charlottesville is not like the mayor of new york city. You dont have all of the powers that the mayor has or the governor of the states. It is a fairly weak mayor position as you pointed out. You are not a leader you had to step up from the position you are in with limited authority and exercise leadership. I think that is really a lesson for people all over the country. I mandated in houston, you did it in charlottesville. Im going to stop there, tell us about the book tells even more than that the argument you are making about what needs to be done . Alright will thank you, nikk nikki. Thanks to Harvard Bookstore for having me. Im really looking forward to this this was supposed to be live in person but this will be just as good. Want to have a couple bio notes we got to know each other because he is the head of the program of the aspen institute. Its part of the leadership Training Organization to alumni are really Extraordinary People the platform with those kinds of issues that are federal. Thank you mickey, you keep this up perfectly abyou teed this up perfectly. It was a very at times frightening, often enraging experience to find myself in his feet as these events unfolded you have three White Nationalist event in the year 2013, not just one, the way in which they built on each other was important for what it said about how charlottesville comes to be why joe biden is running for president , by his own statement, why charlottesville figures into spike lees new movie black klansman marks become its touchstone in modern American History when its also hyper local story and the truth of it, the lessons, the insects, how did it get this hyper local story colored by individual experience and actors and the history of the city . How did they get to become a National International story and to me the answer is very intimate and has to do with throwing things down and telling the actual story of what happened. I wrote the book about this modern historical event i happen to be there for for two reasons, one was which to tell as best i could the truth about what it is like to hold any position of leadership in the eye of the storm with the particular powers that you have with your city council or mayor or chair of a county board or school board member, chief of police come whatever the positions are to me the real learning is going to come from what was it like being there. What you try to do what could you not do . What was the Emotional Experience like . How did you make it through . How did the events impact you have it they build on one another . Thats what history is really like thats how we learn. That was the first fold is to tell the story the second is different they both go to some your questions the second one was i have this intuition through even some of the most painful violent episodes of this that as awful as these events were and chaotic and havoc filled that they still could serve some purpose in america growing through this trauma. And the city growing through this trauma. There is this kind of concept that overarch is the book learning from disaster basically. And trauma producing wisdom and this ancient greek tragedy of the agon, agony can still produce growth and thats how a lot of greek tragedies were structured. I was mindful of that and thats one of the things i tried to in my narrow lane as the thinking about what is the nation learn from the experience of such overt horrific racist antisomatic violent conduct by is a dozen ultra and White Nationalist paramilitaries asian and killed a woman who was a protester after the rally was disbanded, what do we learn from that . What do we learn from how trump reacted to it . What cascades did it set forth . I think there was a lot of specific growth that happened afterward that are crucial to understanding the scope of charlottesville, what the meeting was. The first one i want to talk a little bit about the first, the personal under fire story. There are way too many books out there that are sanitized about politics, government, that are constructed around hollywood narrative where there is a hero and a villain and a clear structure and there is a clear take away. The fact of it is, when you are in a crisis, especially now where social media and the extremes on both sides created such intensity and such conflict the cadence of it is so rapid and intense its unlikely the hollywood or the sanitized version is going to mirror anything about the actual leaders went through. The reason this is so important is if we are going to handle like right now today everybodys minds are on the crisis of the last two weeks which is horrific racist Police Brutalitys sitting on top of a 400 years of organized oppression and brutality toward black and brown people in this country and where theres been some progress but clearly not nearly enough and a lot of ways we backpedaled. This is the reality of the experience that people have and people witnessed Police Brutality and witnessed 16 times an average black family has 16 times less wealth than average white family and average blocks are four times as likely to be sentenced or charged with marijuana crimes as whites so the disparities are current, they are real and they begin in history. Those are all true facts but the question is, if are going to deal with them its committed required government. Its not going to come a government is a means to the end of solving problems in the kind of government we have is not a government of dictatorship and its not or bond saying giving in order. Its humans a lot of times strong people in passions knitting together in a deliberative process and a lot of time at City Council Chambers trying to come up with answers. Working on policy to use government to get it done. For in a deal with minneapolis committed an article in the New York Times which said that for them to really dismantle successfully their police force and deal with the longstanding problem theyve had, that is going to take at least a year for them to deal with the budget and the police union and the contracts in the way that funds are obligated the Police Department and my point is, thats in a required government. People who are willing who have thick enough skin and big enough hearts and care about the ins and outs of what leadership is which is ordinary people taking on a position of trying to get something done in the system. And the book, its hard. Its the most proximate, the most intense kind of government i would say because when you are failing somebody its right in your face at the Grocery Store or the parking lot or the bagel shop, is a tale in the book, and when people are frustrated its good to be right in the City Council Chambers and a lot of battles about how to get answers done are also going to be incredibly intimate. The book is a pretty intense, it was very intense to write, pretty intense to read because you have a lot of open conflicts and a lot of demands and anger. But to me the devil is in the details of her actually deal with injustice in this country we have deal with the details. I want to read, im going to read in my talk before we get to amanda only a handful of paragraphs but better than me just summarizing. The first is, i will suggest in this book is actually five underlying brushfires to converge to create this. In each area the conflict between ideas, ideals and constraints created friction, seat and combustion. First the conflict between the freedom of speech and Public Safety in our First Amendment law the second, our collective failure to come up with constructive ways to address the history of racism through a memorial and public spaces give a lot of what happened to charleston was prompted by calls to remove a Confederate Monument that was put in place during the jim crow era. Third, the clash between order and the passions of todays politics and the fight to define severity itself, or the challenge of providing accountability in a crisis to a public clamoring for real answers and how the new psalms drive for him can abandon generation policy and governance. Each area we are abby people demanding that one should be easy to find and that we applaud even evil if we could. Supposedly simple answers the quick sweeps. On the First Amendment and repeated business by White Nationalists denied the permit and stop them from coming here. So chart with entities these demands can be distracting and dangerous sparking blazes that could spread contagious in an age addicted to slogans that fit social media and the press the struggles to cover complexity and substance with little appetite for leaders doing what leaders needed to do, grapple in the crucial gray area that lies between the seductive poles blackandwhite this gray is not mild or equivocal, it was the gray of smoke and ashes. Telling the story of what its like to be a mayor and a weak mayor form of government with the most 50 of American Cities have its painful but for me i hope for the way the book is set up its rewarding because i had taught about democratic growth and resilience for a long time and the prior two books that i wrote were on different angles of this project. The problem is how is democracy last and grow and strengthen. I wanted to share the experience and lessons not position and wanted people to understand the stakes of committing to this kind of government and theres a lot of hope in this book theres a lot of specific advances that were sparked by charlottesville on one example was we sued along with Georgetown University for constitutional advocacy protection the militia groups that invaded the city using a provision in virginias constitution that was 200 years old that nobody ever used that made militia groups illegal unless they were operating with authority and permission from the civilian authority was that you never needed to go back to those laws before because weve never seen armed groups taking over the streets of towns like charlottesville before. Its an innovation sparked by necessity thats asked essential thats about reclaiming space for democracy itself and there are a lot of other examples like that in the book. To me the greatest mistakes we see right now with what tropism addicts core is about it threatens selfgovernance. It threatens our commitment to invest in the liberty of selfgovernment to democracy and you also see threads of that on the very far left where there is anarchism dominating some parts of that discussion the sentiment is right to deal with these injustices and to achieve extremely progressive ends but its gonna have to come to government and this is a book about what government is really like. I think thats what i want to thats what i want to say for right now. Theres a whole ending part of the book which is about Lessons Learned and specific people out there, leaders, nonprofits, who are doing the work of overcoming extremism, there was a project we started called communities overcoming extremism with a Bipartisan Group including the Antidefamation League the charles token institute, the baxter institute, new america for the folks interested in looking at that you can go to overcoming extremism. Org is a final report eight pages long and has tremendous insights and case studies and best practices how do you deal with extremism using the hard tools of Law Enforcement and the soft tools of engaging with marginalized people so the not victimize her radicalized. At the end of the day and hopeful i want people to understand what it really is to fight for democracy. Thats great, mike, in fact, to make a transition here going from somebody very much involved in local government in a relatively small city to houston, the thirdlargest city, fourthlargest city in america. You have been a leader there in the city council but not only that, you have in common with charlottesville that houston has become a center of these big battles. So why dont you jump in here, give us your thoughts and then after that we will have a conversation together. Can i remind people in the audience to use the q a box on the screen if you want to send some questions that we can get to micro the panel when we get to the end. Thank you mickey. Or as i like to kyle you, cousin mickey, were not related but i would also like to say that. Be sure to put that. [laughter] thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. Of course. The unfortunate circumstances of course made it even more so in terms of the timeliness and i have to say, as native houstonian in houston is also home to george floyd, it has been a very difficult to tumultuous and emotional time for so many people but it also has been a time, i believe, that there is some optimism and for many of us who have felt as though discourse has not been taking place and not been made available in widespread on the issue of Racial Injustice so to have people pick up the phone and call me and say, what can i do . Or am sorry i did not know what other ways i can educate myself . Those kinds of conversations are not conversations we were having three months ago. Those types of conversations were not conversations i remember when charlottesville happened because i was in City Council Member at the time at large and i remember when we met in the city council we want this statute gone, that statute gone etc. Of course before harvey struck. I say all that to say that certainly i think we are on the brink of an opportunity obviously born out of some tragedy but an opportunity to actually see some change. Its imperative as leaders or people who are in leadership is a couple fold, we are able, willing, and completely committed to listening. I think thats one of the spaces and places where things can appear to break down so going out of your way to continue to listen here, i think thats when people dont feel heard, i think that aggravates those circumstances. I think, second, in addition to that, transparency is monumental. Sometimes the democratic process in order for that to bear out and have different viewpoints, collaborations, compromise, all those things at the center, you have to have an ability to have that convening but there isnt anything to my view that stops us from having longerterm effort to mediumterm efforts and some shorterterm efforts that i think can balance some of that Human Emotion people are feeling right now we saw 60,000 people gathered in light of George Floyds murder and that happened downtown houston it happened very peacefully because of who brought folks together they felt like they were being able to be heard. Who was coming to the table it was in honor of george floyd. As opposed to some type of antagonistic relationship and i think thats important to make sure people understand that there voices are important. Especially in these dialogues. I think also when we pick about leadership and change and in particular one of the things there to be critical is to be clear about what is being asked for those on the side of protests being very clear about one of the deliverables. One of the things very striking ambassador andrew young said to me once was that people mistake the movement meaning the Civil Rights Movement as just being emotional. What we do know, there certainly emotion attached to those moments but theres also a very keen focus on strategy. Objectives, goals, and strategy and i think when we think about that we think about it from how do you get what you want. But as leaders we can also think about how do we facilitate that . Are we provide an openness that doesnt make us and antagonize her in that paradigm. I think with a large level of transparency because when you see all the protests and you see the heightened emotions, its natural because these are human beings these are people. These are people who are seeing the very raw injustice take place right before their eyes whether on the side we believe in or not, what we have to do is balance that. We know that there is a sense of urgency because often times it is viewed that government and processes of government are there to stifle progress. So how do we get out of the lens of being the entity or the stifle her of progress and simply demonstrate that progress can take place in varying ways. One being the longer term, having a task force, deliberating over some of the longer term changes, those that are more difficult to make happen. Things that require budgetary changes and things of that nature but some of which some things that can be done are ab i think in your book you talked about abwhat were some of the low hanging fruits that can be a victory a symbol of, we hear you, we are listening, we are trying to be here to do what is just but at the same time, we also have to balance a process that exists and i think having those categories of shortterm, mediumterm, longterm, help to him its not a perfect science but can help to balance that in a time where emotions are running high at especially if its laid out in that way in terms of, this is going to have some things that take a little longer to do we have some things that are kind of medium of the middleoftheroad and then we have some things we could just do right here and do right now. And have those things kind of laid out so that people know where you are coming from because i think most of the time especially when youre dealing with issues of brutality, Law Enforcement of the government has been the preparatory perpetrator in many respects. There is a miss trust or distrust their that i think you have to overcome by being super transparent. I think also thinking about just in this moment and not necessarily in the charlottesville example but in this moment when we think about it, all of the varying partnerships that might be emerging or strange bedfellows that might be arising from the circumstance like this, for instance, the corporations that the making of statements we dont stand for racism, the question i would have in terms of strategy is, will you stand for the following policy recommendations . Can you help us cross the finish line . We have challenges when we try to bring this measure to the state legislature. Will you sign this letter . Will you pick up the phone to make a call . Those are ways that i think ultimately we can transfer this energy into some of the longerterm actions. But i think mike, as he picked up, there is no perfect science to any of this. I think always keeping in mind at the forefront is that we have to have a process that is fair that is democratic but also that we dont lose sight of the human nature of public service. That there are people who are in the balance and i will close with this, when i think about whats happening right now with the situation with Racial Injustice and Police Brutality, i recall holding the hands of the original tulsa race writers providers from 1,921. We went to washington dc to meet with various elected officials they sought justice and the fact that she was gripping on my responsibility as a law student back then it was to watch and help and assist. I just remember people have been holding on for justice, they been seeking justice for such a long time and we cannot lose sight of those stories and for someone to know and appreciate the compassion that you have, it goes a long way in these really difficult issues of Racial Injustice or intolerance and all the things that have now i think just become emboldened in a trump era. I think now for those even if we dont have immediate relief, being able to say i see you i hear you and hear other ways that i think we can solve this together, i think its really really important regardless if its 100 on the outcome of what that person or individual or community would want to see i think that communication and presences needed. Thats great. We had one question we received so far it goes a lot to what you were just talking about. Im gonna say a word about this and then see what you guys wanted to add. My question was, with the feeling so intense and so divisive, how we bridge the divide . You talked about this a lot. In this program just talking, not to you two but the audience, this program that we run through the institute both of you are a part of its completely bipartisan. The only other two people i will mention it as a former Republican National chairman mike steele in the former and the current Democratic Council chairman tom perez and every group his half democrat half republican. But what we do in our meetings is to sit down together and talk to each other as human beings and get together and say what was your life like . How is life growing up . Amanda, what problems did you face . What led you to where you are . Part of this seems to be that only a part of it about urging the divide is getting to know people who think differently than you do and listen to them. Not for the purpose of forming a rebuttal but to listen and learn something. I would say in these current protests since george floyd was murder but since then i think whats happened is a lot of country have started to listen to the stories about the injustice and thats moving the needle. I dont know what more you might want to add on this amanda, mike, you had to deal with this in the middle of what happened in charlottesville but what are the ways that we i dont know if abis the right name and how do we make a solid one country again . How do we do that . I think mickey, you hit the nail on the head its about having discourse. We have gotten away from discourse in our country, which means, like we said, a willingness to listen and absorb and process. If you go in and you know your talking points and it doesnt matter what the next person says because you know your talking points, youre not really listening, you might hear words out of their mouth but youre not really willing to listen and absorb. I think what we are seeing played out, look at the nfl kneeling discussion taking place with a number of the athletes themselves who come down initially one way and having changes of heart etc. , people are finally listening to each other and understanding that some of the things you mightve thought to be mutually exclusive, actually are not if you take the moment to understand why or understand the various perspective people bring that might not be your life experiences. So like you said, i think one is getting to know and then we have to come from a place of honesty. I think thats the second part is ive got to know that you are willing to listen and absorb what i have to say i have to be able to do the same if i expected of you. I think being reciprocal in that willingness to listen i think his soul isink its so important. Mike, what about you . I love amandas answers, i love the question. Part of trying to write this book as candidly as i could in self reflectively as i could and outlining a journal i was keeping at the time. To be totally honest, some of come in the small crowd, some of my greatest regrets come from abi go through this in the book. I talking about meeting with the therapist and really trying to address these experiences of this town being repeatedly invaded and not being able to stop them from coming. Theres lots of other, not being able to make people feel better about it. And how that made me feel tapped out and i wondered whether i could do a better job listening and in some ways amanda, i totally agree, listening is an act in and of itself. If you are to take you talk about low hanging fruit. Making people feel heard in their english and the statues made people feel anguish. There was a lot of other people, the opinion was very divided across the black community, the White Community and we set up a whole process to deal with the question of what to do with the statues under state law which is a whole section of the book. The ins and outs and ups and downs and the what happened with the opinions changed over the course of the six months on the statues and back in 2,016 2,017. The whole story in and of itself but there were people who were agonized by the towering nature of the statutes put in place of jim crow. One of the things that happened is the police in charlottesville did not take a certain number of very discrete steps that wouldve made the Jewish Community feel more protected. With the synagogue when there were neonazis parading nearby and the police said, sorry, we cant spare a vehicle. Theres sharpshooters nearby, a patrol on the block they didnt have Psychological Safety. The largely black residents in the Public Housing community did have Psychological Safety they felt like the city was taking steps to protect them when you have these White Nationalists armed with but the ins and kind of military garb going right up to their doorsteps so what government can do to deal with people address people psychological needs setting aside what government is going to do about these things which is a whole other set of questions like what we do on the First Amendment. I think its been a change. There is the one set of regrets and lessons i think in the book as one case study of one leaders experience in this kind of hot seat which i think is universal to many kind of hot seats but there is a second answer i want to give to the folks listening and both of you because you both have been in government and politics it goes directly to what you are saying which is theres this antidote in the beginning of the book when as a brandnew mayor i go to the abbarack obama addresses on just one of 200 mayors on the 10th row i dont talk to them personally but he did this remarkable thing where he goes, first of all, he said this joke he said any of yall feel underappreciated . Theres this big laughter that goes throughout the crowd that he told us the stories he got very reflective about how lot the things he had fought for and achieved through government were out of sync with the media cycle. He told two stories, dealing with the ebola crisis which is pertinent today. In the Gulf Oil Spill and how both were required months of experts work that did not sync up with what fox news was doing or what was in the twitter verse and he was really calling her attention to the work of governments sometimes is just going to be out of sync with the cadence and the demand and the craziness of a lot of what is put and communicates and goes viral and social media. I think the challenges, how you make folks be heard and listen and be empathetic while also paying attention to the what the president was talking about which is that getting the really hard stuff right, a talk in the book about this metaphor of just intermeshed gears and how the smallest ones are the least powerful but the ones that move the fastest and the biggest ones are the most powerful but move the slowest. A lot of times, it took over a year to get successful prosecutions by a different Constitutional Office because the prosecutor in charleston separately elected neonazi of who murdered heather higher end of the other White Supremacists who beat up a young black man in a parking garage right near the Police Station and everybody saw these videos and they were going out of their mind with why cant you investigate arrest, walk up on these people but the prosecutor was saying we have to do it carefully we have to assemble the evidence the right way and work with the intelligence authorities we have to have reinforcing evidence and they did and succeeded and most of these folks have been locked up. That was one instance where a successful investigation prosecution took longer but with that said, that could never be an excuse for not getting it right for not being aggressive in the first place. We have a huge problem in this country of White Nationalists potential domestic terrorist not being aggressively disrupted at the federal level starting and going all the way down in charleston was another in microcosm casualty of wires in the federal government surveilling and disrupting potential domestic terrorist groups who are White Nationalists. There is an answer to that, which is White Nationalists were part of this administrations political domestic Political Coalition and a lot of evidence to that. Its a shocking claim and its made more shocking by the fact that its true and theres evidence of it. Theres a frontpage New York Times article by Janet Reitman which went into this. The fbi in the doj successfully focused on White Nationalists potential domestic terrorist you see the cost in cities like charleston and the tree of life shooting in el paso so the length and bureaucracy and difficulty should never be an excuse to not have urgency for solving really hard problems. We do need to focus on the lowest hanging fruit i think especially in this time of rage and anguish about so much injustice but we also need to spin the other plate of solving really hard problems through government and not just through just protesting about it. The protest is a beginning not an end. What are the things one of things i think about both of you mike and amanda is when we talk about leadership we did this in our seminars and i teach leadership at princeton and we talk about the values based leadership which is what i teach but there are these two different branches of leadership and one that people tend to look for is transformational leadership. A great leader with a great vision for the future and who is going to take us to a great new place and there is certainly a need for that but the part that gets all amok is the need for transactional leadership, which is what you two are talking about which is yes you have a grand vision you know what you want the country to be like for your city to be like but how do you make it happen . How do you actually figure out the progress when all these years i was in congress have all the big ideas and how you navigate through the committee system. How do you get your bill with cosponsors . How do you create the pressure from back home to try to make it happen . You two are great leaders i watched you both Say Something about this. You already talked about it somewhat how what the American People should be looking for our people not who were just going to give great speeches and fire you up but who have a plan one of the candidates just went to this, i have a plan for that. But how you have a plan to actually make things happen. And want to hear amanda answer. I think you first have to come a one of my favorite authors is simon cynic he talks about start with why. Weve already spelled out the why in terms of Racial Justice and injustices as a whole in our society. We got that. Weve got a powerful why around which people can galvanize, followed behind, really grab onto and hold onto as part of a movement. But you also have to identify precisely what you are what is and also your house. In our case i think we have to identify what are the specific what are the specific changes that you want to see. Not general, we want a just society. Yes those are general y level motivations but weve got to get specific. What types of reforms do we want to see on policy basis whether use of force policies or how do we diversify our Law Enforcement . All of those things. There are many things you can list but what are our whats things and list them, those need to be very clear. We have a checklist and you have top 10 or what have you and then each of those strategies we should have a how mapped out and they might be different depending on what the what is. The whiteboard it out and you figure out, okay, this requires state federal and local prevention. This is just local, this is just the Police Policy change internal. You identify your roadmap for achieving each of those things and then all those people who are energized and wanting to help, you plug them in so you say, this is where i can get Corporate America involved so its not just the use of a statement about what they stand for but heres how they can actually aside for making contributions this is something i can actually ask them specifically to do and be able to hold accountable. This is a state legislators role. Where to put soandso in charge of this one and then i would go as far because im such a planner and say, we need timetables. The accountability piece is what often gets lost. Kind of like where policy is implemented, the evaluation of was that actually ineffective policy . That gets left off . Same thing happens with just movements for change people forget to hold leadership accountable part of that is timetable. When you want to see this done . When is the point of you missed the boat or window is close. We got to identify that. Then who is accountable . Come election season or come this might be a function of bureaucracy weve got to be able to parse through where are our points of the countability so people are really empowered to effectuate the change. If we just leave it at, this is what we want to see happen and it doesnt happen, we arent optimizing the moment to really be empowered to really pinpoint where did this thing go wrong . You dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, sometimes you do but you dont have to. Where did this really go wrong or where can we write the ship . I think if we empower the public to see this architecture or engineering of a plan in this type of way, i think youd really began to see a really different approach with regard to government, i think you will see a different approach with regard to the public. Instead of just making a broad call say, i want to see x, y, z by the next session. And see where that goes. This is a professor of leadership we are listening to. [laughter] mike, anything else you want to bring into this. We got about 10 minutes left. I just want to remind people watching this that if you have questions you want to ask for any of us especially amanda and mike. Just to go to the q a and see if we can get a couple questions in, mike, did you want to add to this . Yes. At the end of the book when i tried to knit together with the lessons of this whole experience could be for other people and really slowing down and getting into the anatomy of a crisis in the aftermath of the crisis. I focus on just what you said, the blackandwhite distinction between transactional dealmaking, pragmatic government and the government that the leadership tries to remake whole societies then theres this even deeper part of the book going into the big dime words are the ontological witches and old fancy word that just means that you look to moral duty. Your argument for why you are leaving or what because you are choosing is moral. The utilitarians who say its not about the moral causes about what can i get done, what will happen what will change will happen in the world . Im not a big one for grand theories im just not. I tend to think the truth lies in picking and choosing and borrowing a little here and borrowing a little there and putting together a gumbo or stew from it all. Thats how i generally think that if you have a unified theory of anything, you are likely not to get to the full truth. I think each side could respect each other more. There was a real role ended Racial Injustice in fighting intolerance and fighting domestic terrorism is a powerful role for people who are going to plunge into the debate and the questions where its just moral. I told an example of a guy when i had to explain Supreme Court case law like nazis versus skokie which mandates the governance unless there is evidence of a clear eminent incitement to unlawful act you have to host intolerable speech fits properly applied for because thats what the Supreme Court has said. I think those things could change and i think they should but at the time thats the law i was required to explain and vote on as a lawyer and sworn officer of the body. I talked about how painful it was because we had folks and people coming in saying as a moral principle you should vote for the ku klux klan coming to town. You should take losses and then i was coming back with this, i dont know whether its moral or pragmatic, probably both, im worried about giving Court Victories to neonazis because they love defeating governments in court. Theres nothing they raise money more for more get more legitimacy from then defeating a mayor or College President in court over there terrible hate speech. , i dont claim to have a whole lot of perfect answers coming out of it, i certainly no silver bullets, just to tell what this one set of attempts at resolving and wrestling with these issues was like and were kind of abi hope others can take lessons from it, i think that each side the transformational people who think that you can rechange the world through basically Reimagining Society can learn a lot from the pragmatic dealmakers in the pragmatic dealmakers can learn a lot from the ones who see like i thought there was a lot, i was very moved when this guy came up and said that to us at city council he said i just think you have a moral duty to act and tried to then to try to deny this. I wish i couldve somehow bridged all of it. Epic mickey, you said true leadership is when you know youre losing your friend. You want to push the leadership boundaries as far as you can without committing suicide. One of the things i said before how timely your book is. All of this is playing out in front of us. One of the examples we dont want to get into because different direction here but in the New York Times the fear over the bed that caused James Bennett to lose his job as the editor of the oped page. In the big debate over do you give this other point of view no matter how much you hated the chance to be heard in the public debate . Or do you have a moral obligation not to let that be out there. Without going to theres a lot of this happening all the time we are being confronted with people on both sides. There is a moral obligation to believe this. The lessons you took at a leadership lessons are very important. I would be curious amanda if you have any anecdotes or insight. I dont know what Houston City Council is like but the reason i wanted to tell the story of some of these seemingly unrelated battles about just procedure or being able to speak or not be heckled or could you have people remove there was a guy who came in and shouting that muslims were monstrous maniacs and wanted all muslims removed from the city. That in and of itself would events free speech but not within the context he was saying it where i felt like there was a danger you can have disorder breakout and violence in the chamber. I tell the story and then we were sued and we lost in federal court the rule i was using to have the scar removed from the chambers. This was another First Amendment issue and the reason these things are relevant as they go to does our government give place for deliberation and for hearing and working through really tough issues not with safety and Psychological Safety but with the ability to get it done . That to me is the stakes and so much of our politics as its gotten so extreme metal has collapsed. It basically has defaulted to intimidation and theres a lot of activism now across the spectrum that is basically intimidating. Everybody in position of power and authority its not giggling them space to have a process which they can actually make some policy outcome like president obama was talking about and consequently we see less and less interest in actually policymaking. Thats what you need, ironically, to decrease the extremes. I was talking about the occupy movement. How much did the occupy movement, i totally appreciate the passion but income inequality is only got worse in the 10 years since that Incredible Movement happened and that kind of energy and needs to be translated into action thats why i focus so much on the book and the paradoxes honey allow government to do its job well while doing what amanda is talking about which is listening and making people feel heard. Let me quickly say, weve got about a minute left if im right about that. You jump in whenever youre supposed to jump in and shut us up. Its probably not an official way to do it. We could do it for days. I would say there are also one of the things that i think is a frame of reference that isnt always shared is what is the role of officeholders . Like in your view. Great question. People automatically wouldve understood or appreciated that you believe you needed to understand what the law is and operate within the confines of the law but there such a thing as civil disobedience and a variety of things that are intended to go against what is currently the status quo because harkening this moral authority shouldnt be. So if that means i would get arrested or all the things that can take place its my responsibility because of where i stand. I think there has to be a conversation in terms of with people understanding that that was the route you chose to take this many people say, i dont care what it says, we will get sued, sue me. People will take two different views of that. Theres not just one side or way of seeing that. I think that is something that it often gets lost in translation. Its my duty as this officeholder and sworn someone whos taken this oath to follow the laws adhere to the laws as they currently stand. Someone else might say, im a leader and its my responsibility to create shift the paradigm where i think it ought to be. [inaudible question]. [inaudible] we are running out of time. Do we have Closing Remarks . Im just glad that amanda ended on that note. I grappled with that at every turn. When in which case do you make a values driven decision and change the paradigm and when in which case do you make a more pragmatic decision based on the fact that you know them its called cry havoc for god sakes. I agree with that as that is the question when you are dealing with an unfolding crisis especially these issues today and i think the main thing is that when you are in it, the answers are likely to be the process is likely to put you two ways to the gray area. But i think thats exactly right. Theres a story in the book about in response to the muslim ban. I called a massive press Conference Rally that was declared charlottesville to be a capital of the resistance. It had everybody from the university and lieutenant governors wife running for governor at the time we had the head of the largest churches and all 800 people there it felt just right. We had 100 Muslim Political refugees coming to our city every year from little freedom fighters. It was very much just like in the frame that youre talking about. Who will as time went on it became something totally different. It became a Reference Point for people who wanted to see it at the beginning of all this and we actually did some real things that related to protecting religious ain the city. The material changes. We allocated some money to the legal aid to defend political refugees as part of this but i wanted to tell the stories because the book is a cornucopia of stabs at leadership from a number of different angles. I hope the folks can learn from it but its much more importantly about a city that kind of get it out and the change that all this theres a whole new focus on equity i think the First Amendment has changed and case law is changed as a result i think courts are to be much less likely to impose these inflexible rules in the future and more likely to look at evidence that local officials are bringing id be more sympathetic theres a wrenching story in the book about trying to relocate the rally to a safer ground where the groups couldve been safely separated and the mayor of houston actually Sylvester Turner recommended to me that we do that and we lost in federal court after the aclu sued us and i think cities will be more likely to prevail on that in the future because the rules are going to allow you to bring more evidence and be less abstract basically. And less moral. I think they will allow more facts to come in about danger and expense as we looking at a society with more and more conflict we just have to address. Theres a lot of hardbitten wisdom and a lot of hope in the book i think about where all this brings us but its not without great cost. Its a great book mike. Think you thank you so much mickey. Amanda, great to see you cousin. Thank you cousin mickey. Is so good to be with you. Thank you again so much thank you michael, mickey, amanda, for taking the time to come here and have this wonderful conversation. Take you to all of you at home who are spending your evening engaging in this conversation with us. If you would like to buy a copy of cry havoc theres a link in the chat, check that out or if youd like to donate, on behalf of Harvard Bookstore, have a great night, keep reading, stay well and thank you very much for coming. Heres a look at some books being published this week. After magazine cofounder thomas frank provides a history of populism in the people know in red November Breitbart editor at large joel pollak examines the 2,020 democratic primaries. In kate green describes her time in a Nasa Mars Mission simulation in once upon a time i lived on mars. Also being published this week in shuttle houston paul die looks back at his career as nasas longestserving flight director. Biographer Charles Larison explores the life of american outlaw butch cassidy. Former National Editor first usa today Philip Marvin and Centurion Ministry founder jim look awfully examine the work that Centurion Ministry dose to overturn wrongful convictions in when truth is all you have. In covid19 science journalist Deborah Mckenzie looks at how the covid19 outbreak in china become a global pandemic. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv. Org on cspan2 during a Virtual Event hosted by st. Louis Left Bank Books mccurry sellars recalled his childhood in denmark South Carolina as the sum of the civil rights activist at his experience as South Carolinas youngest state representative heres a portion of his conversation. When you knock on doors you have this resolved you knock on every single door and marketed it with the Confederate Flag and knocked on doors aba because i really wanted to meet people where they are. I had the firm belief that no matter what, black, democrat, republican that you wanted to have a Grocery Store in your community that he didnt want your grandparents having to choose between whether or not to pay the utility bills or get their pharmaceutical drugs i went to the steps in my mind and i can literally change the lives of people i wasnt yet jaded by reality and im proud to say im still not really jaded by that reality. In walking through the ab there was this was the agitator son i was walking into a statehouse where the same state that put my family through so much trauma i was there to help change that, put a new face on the material the systems of justice, i dont know how successful i was at that but i tried my damnedest. So there was that and then the sense of being young that everybody looked at me because i was 21, 22 years old. I was the youngest by like a decade plus. Everybody staring at you in the first time you open your mouth there like emily want to see what youre all about, whos this john do this young black guy from denmark the son of the civil rights hero, what is he up to say . I dont think people really remember but when i was elected every day i went outside when is having a rough day and took a deep breath. To watch the rest of this Program Visit our website cry havoc search for bacarri sellers using the box at the top of the page. Booktv on cspan2 has taught nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Coming up this weekend, sunday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on after words author former College President political commentator Dinesh Desousa examines what he calls the new face of socialism in the United States and whether its becoming part of our political culture in his book United States of socialism is interviewed by independent institutes senior fellow benjamin powell. Then at 10 00 p. M. Eastern doctor Ezekiel Emanuel former special advisor on Health Policy to the director of the office of management and budget during the Obama Administration discusses his book which country has the worlds best healthcare . Watch booktv on cspan2 this weekend. Good evening everybody and welcome to. Stretching from union square, from an original 48 stores until after over 93 years the sole survivor. Now ran by third generation. We want to thank all of you for your support, authors, book lovers and frien,