Transcripts For CSPAN2 Larry Tye Demagogue 20240712

Your television provider. Good evening everyone. Im the director of the book festival. Thank you so a much for being here tonight. We are absolutely delighted to be hosting larry tye for his book demagogue. About senator joseph mccarthy. His long sign john nichols. The Capital Times and associative and under in a magazine. We could not be more delighted to be hosting this event for you. Also along here on our podcast channel. I want to take a moment to say thank you to Madison Public Library and the foundation. Their support for online cultural events has been absolutely unwavering. Im so excited to see john nichols. Their support for these events have been absolutely unwavering. And they have been so dedicated to bring authors and to all of you, said that you can watch her home. It in medicine, weve seen incredible uptake in our audience, people from all over and its absolutely wonderful to see the response i think it everyone who is here tonight. It and to all of the sponsors to make sure that these events keep going. With all further ado i would like to bring john and mary to the screen. And heres larry. Larry hi everyone and thank you for joining us. Larry, things for coming all of the way to massachusetts to be here with us tonight. There is cape cod as we speak. We have about 100 people are close to hundred people with this. And more may join us as we go along. As was explain the front, we will take questions. I will ask larry some questions that the start. And about halfway in, will invite some questions from you folks marie wouldve taken. We are very excited to go there. Something to couple things up front about larry. First and foremost, he is a journalist. As folks are journalism. And its very best. We live in a time when journalism is under attack. Not only by political figures but also by the economic forces on the moment in which we live. In the challenges we face. And so it is a great honor to be with another journalist and somebody who has really practice the craft and some of the most creative and exciting ways. So that is only a beginning of discussing larrys any talents any contributions. I will also mention that we are talking tonight about a new book that they put out, demagogue. Thats his book on joe mccarthy, a former senator from wisconsin. I do want to emphasize the larry has ten other books, that are worth a your attention if you have not read them already. His biography of kennedy was brilliant. And really talk the expiration of kennedy story journey to a new and exciting places produce biography page was a vital contribution to not just force history but the history of really the evolution of this country. And so any fundamental ways. And finally, rising from the rails, a story of the car porters. Im a huge fan of randolph. And was a leader and chairman of the march on washington in 1963. Larry, captured that brilliantly. It is highly recommended of his books. We are here tonight stuck by the brilliant new book. Demagogue. I wanted to start out larry by asking you. I dont mean in some of your other biographies, you have the name of the person, the actual or Bobby Kennedy in the case of joe mccarthy, you chose the word. Demagogue. Why was that. Larry before he answered that question i just want to say that john is one of the any people that i interviewed for this book and two things stood out about my interview with him. When is is the youngest person and i interviewed when i was trying to get a sense of people who really in the mccarthy era d the other was that he was among the very smartest people i interviewed. Any of you who are wisconsin readers know his work from the camp times and from the nation and from all kinds of other places that he has published. So having somebody who was tuned to not just mccarthy but the context in wisconsin and the nation was extraordinary. And the reason that i picked this one word title was now mccarthys name was because this is a book that is about americas love affair with bullies from a very early days until today. Demagogue. The beginnings of his crusade is because he was the architect for this bully or demagogue figure in American History. That is a longwinded explanation i promise to give other answer shorter, john. Host were actually here to hear what you have to say praise a little longwinded is okay part of going to keep right on the title for a Second Period in the title we use the term the long shadow. Life and long shadow of joe mccarthy. Give us a sense of what you mean by that. The long shadow. Is it the impact of what he did . Or is it really the broader notion of the demigod. So we partly cast a long shadow because of the impact of what he did. And not just him as mr. Mccarthy. But the orchestrator of this whole movement, mccarthyism. It is also to say that we just cant stop with his death. We have to look at how we influence demagogues after. Whether they be david duke, george wallace, for people who are in our political context today. I just want to say one other thing. The temptation with a lot of the interviews ive been doing on joe mccarthy, its a talk about donald trump. This is a really book up about John Mccarthy. Donald trumps only mentioned the preface in the epilogue. In his story in the story of other demigods as they turn away and every page of the book. On as long as you brought trump up, im going to join you in trying to avoid a very deep discussion of him. Tell me, when you started putting this book together, it was around the start of his presidency wasnt it . Guest actually a week before the election 2016 i had signed up to write a different book. That was a biography of barack obama. The day after the election i realize we will not know rock obamas legacy until after the era of trump is over. It also became apparent to me, the day after the election, that what i thought was a story of almost ancient history in america in terms of demigods, is the story of today. That we have not outgrown this affair, this attraction to bullies in the ways id hoped we had. Host so lets get into the book a little bit. One interesting element of it is that you take a very casual approach to referring to him. I guess the way to say it is usually the book which a wonderful narrative throughout. Just a great screen going through it. Its a little bit like being maybe sitting out in front of somebodys house and a couple of lawn chairs, or by the beach or the end of the bar. Somebody starts to tell a very long story. His very human in some anyways we thought to do that. Youre right it a biography of somebody you have to humanize them and make the reader feel like they are getting into the spirit of this persons life. Whether this person is somebody who you think of by the end of the book as a hero or villain, they ought to know them. As a preconscious thing, same way Bobby Kennedy, i talked about him generally using the word bobby. That was a conscience decision. With this one it is lots of joes. Its not a variation from mccarthy but it is try to get in and see him from the inside. Host what did you see me looked inside . Guest i saw on the one hand, i want to go back actually to a quote that was one of the reasons i have had joe mccarthy in the back of my head ever since i was in my research on Bobby Kennedy. It is a quote from that one person of the 450 people that i interviewed for the Bobby Kennedy book that was irreplaceable. A woman name ethel kennedy, bobbis widow. She said something about joe mccarthy that i cannot get out of my head. It was that joe mccarthy might be a monster too much of americ america. But to bobby and to me he was just plain good fun. The idea of joe mccarthy being good fun was counterintuitive to me. I felt there some side of him, the side that caused wisconsin to overwhelmingly elect him in two different statewide elections that i wanted to understand. Until i came out of this book feeling like on the one hand joe mccarthy became much more of a human being as opposed to the caricature we study in our history books than i had ever realized. He is somebody that i would love to have gone out for a beer wit with. And sat down and really understood all of his charms, all of his ability to can vince evelyn Bobby Kennedy gives a great guy to spend time with. On the other hand the documents i looked at made him seem even more sinister than the history books did. The upside was he became more of a human being. The downside was that a lot of the political things he did in his motivation and doing them, and while we could see some of the papers that gave a more candid sense of that made him somebody that if you went out for a beer with him at night that will be fine. But you sure as heck would not want to be in the witness stand when he was grilling you during the day. Spirit one of the most interesting things about mccarthy was his ability to joke with the people he was about to attack. Or jokingly attack them. We had the stories of John Patrick Hunter the longtime political reporter who battled with bacardi throughout the 40s or throughout the 50s for sure. He actually started to hide behind poles at the event us. Because he got saw him in the cloud, mccarthy would launch into a rather jovial attack on the prayer. And an attack on hunter. But it will not be so mean started. It almost before the phone and the joking and the crowd. That was very common with him. Think that suggest two things about mccarthy. One is that he did not quite understand how brutal he was being. And being there with an angry called up by mccarthy was putting hunter at a risk. I dont think mccarthy quite got that aspect of it. It was also joe mccarthy this as a bit of a game. He assumed that everyone was there, journalists or politicians he is going after what understand that it was a game. They would understand the rules. They would be able to go after with him and put it all behind them. Because after all it was a game. Host i think youre right about him it comes out in your booking i dont take the whole narrative of mccarthy story because i think people should read the book. I am interested in your thoughts about at the start of his caree career. At least a relatively liberal character. Was that nearly opportunistic . Or is that where he actually started and evolved into Something Else. So when you cant talk about much of anything with John Mccarthy leave out the opportunistic element. The element he started out with older conservative that he ended up, i think where he started out in where he had the most choice. He didnt know what would get them is elected. When he ran for district attorneys new fdr democrat. Think of someone whos fired up about that that he really believed that was best for the country. His irish roots suggested is where he belongs. I think the only time he question his being a democrat was being a liberal and he realized he could not be elected from the area around appleton that he grew up. He was game to do whatever it took to be elected. So some night, probably the middle of the night when nobody was looking he went and changed his Party Registration to republican. And as you know the story, it was not just that he became a republican. The opening and the Republican Party, the progressive wing of the progressive party, and the opening was the most conservative Republican Party. If that meant changing his ideology, he was going to do that. He was going to do and he did whatever it took. Of anything that ran throughout his life, it was the theme of whatever it took. Host were the people along the way to help them to make that change . Thinking of some of the folks up in appleton, particularly manchester and others. There a lot of people who helped him. It was his best friend and probably say just advisor. And he helped steer him. The people at the newspaper and appleton, helped steer him. He had lots of people who ended up being his enablers. Being his benefactors. And being his guides. And he was willing to take advice from anybody he was willing to serve the ends of joe mccarthy. She went and they like that right . That made him appealing. They love that. It was an extraordinary character and i think from comments he made over the years to everybody from journalists, to authoress to children that he truly adored John Mccarthy. He understood mccarthys flaws and shortcomings as well as anybody did. But that he was a loyal friend and he stuck with him for he never publicly repudiated mccarthy even when his temptation was to do that. And even when his telling his kids at mccarthy it gone off the rails again. And i think that was a lot of people had a lot of loyalty to joe mccarthy. Including somebodys who entire family was representing the iconic liberal first family of america, the kennedys. Became loyal enough from John Mccarthy. Not only publicly question him , but when his brother jack said stay away from mccarthys funeral and appleton in 1957, bobby said thank you jack interesting advice. He flew into appleton with all of his republican congressional people. And on the one hand healed up in the choir loft so nobody could see him at the funeral. At the Graveside Service he stood off to the side where no one could see him. After the funeral he begged the journalist who were there to not put his name in the stories and not get him in trouble with his big brother jack. But until the very end, and until today the kennedys generally and bobby specifically very loyal to him. With mccarty with elvis flaws is a guy who inspired on a personal level that kind of enormous loyalty. Host is also notable that john kennedy really danced around mccarthy rather than standing up to him. Guest john kennedy had a different relationship. Bobby was more straightforward less plotting guy than john kennedy. John kennedy is always thinking of his next step it im convinced the day kennedy was born he started plotting his president ial campaign. His father did absolutely. But jack picked it up quickly. In 1952 when john kennedy was a relatively unknown and unaccountably congressman from massachusetts run against the very powerful senator lodge to take that seat away from lodge , he had one big request for joe mccarthy. Which was stay the heck out of massachusetts. Joe kennedy given enough money to John Mccarthy that whenever he asked, mccarthy was likely to say yes. Joe kennedy was smart enough to know that if joe mccarthy came to massachusetts and campaign for the Republican Lodge lots of Irish Catholic voters who love joe mccarthy. Whether they were republicans they were more likely democrats would do what he said to do. And jack kennedy ended up winning up that senate seat by just three percentage points. In the year of an eisenhower landslide group won by nine points but i think joe kennedy and jack kennedy were right. Mccarthy staying out of massachusetts ensures kennedy won the seat. And jack kennedy for the rest of his life had a certain kind of loyalty for mccarthy. When mccarthy was censured the only senator in the senate at that time who not only did not show up and vote but who we do not know how they would have voted was jack kennedy. Not exactly the kind of profile that jack candidate was famous for talking about. Attire when you take us to that term right there. You are from massachusetts. Weve already spoken far too much about massachusetts here. Lets talk about wisconsin. And that 1946 campaign that brought mccarthy to the u. S. Senate. He took on the senator who would come back into the Republican Party after having been out of it for a dozen years as a leading figure with his brother and that progressive party. Mccarthy obvious is making opportunistic run pretty had the brought backing of the party establishment. He was an epic figure in the states. Appears seat early on he did not take mccarthy seriously. Or did not taken seriously enough. Through accu have just captured the through line for all of mccarthys campaign. His opponent seldom took him seriously. Tom coleman who was the dean of the republicans in the states never took them seriously. As a guide to carry their cudgel against the follis. Tom colemans dream come im sure it kept them up at night was somehow beating him. That joe mccarthy of the his vehicle for doing it is something he did except until he watched mccarthy. Any watch mccarthy go out and hustle all of the republican activists. Especially young republicans in a way that finally coleman became convinced this was the guy who was so determined to win that he was the guy he got get behind. The way i think that joe mccarthy beat him was partly what you were suggesting. That he beat himself. He really, it was almost like he was surrendering. I think he was getting older. He had been in office long enough, his health is not great. And im sure he is not convinced he wanted another term. Or at least not wanted it enough to fight hard and to fight dirty like he was going to have to do to beat a guy like joe mccarthy. So mccarthy had legitimate issues in the campaign. Whether hed been captured by the republican establishment had the kind of rootedness in wisconsin that voters in any state want to see when they are electing somebody. He also fought dirty. And he raised issues like the fact that le follett owned a home in virginia. And mccarthy was suggesting that was a manchin. And it was a place he really considered home. And not wisconsin. And if anybody should not have had to show that the deep roots in the state of wisconsin, certainly his family had given up as much and serve the state, not just for a long time but really well. But a time he finally came back and started campaigning hard, the campaign was essentially over. And mccarthy one by out hustling his opponent see what a section about 3000 votes, right . Guest is a very close election. It was an unlikely election for mccarthy to be able to oppose le folletts. Whos the toughest toughest election he would ever face. The easy things to beat a decamp pratt after you beat le folletts. The republican nomination. So when mccarthy shows up in washington in early 1947, he shows that there arguably as one of the biggest surprises in the new class of senators, arguably the least qualified new center to taking a seat like that. But he also from his earliest days gave an indication that if anybody had been paying attention he someone to be reckoned with. He was throwing bounds of hers even seated in the senate. Essentially saying striking miners we ought to think about doing a Death Penalty against striking miners. Now whether he really thought that, nobody will ever know. But i dont think he did. He just knew instinctively how to get journalist like you and me to it Pay Attention to him. And that was partly by being outrageous. It was partly by offering them without having to say it that he would put them on page one. And it was partly bite charming he was charming. He was. Before we get into that i think thats very vital part want to do one more thing on the 46 election to close the circle. I think that one of the interesting things was that mccarthy may well have won the 46 primary because of the rise of the modern Democratic Party. Because the Democratic Party actually 46 after been on the sideline through most of the 30s and 40s in wisconsin had genuine candidates and genuine competition, dan found the former mayor of milwaukee had come over to run for governor. As a good cannon for the senate. Primaries for congressional seats. And suddenly, some of that energy had gone over. So i think youre exactly right in the cold stage story told about that election is mccarthy was elected with the support of communist. While in fact much more important was the fact that there really was a Democratic Alternative with a lot of progressives who would have been tempted to go with left follett into the Republican Party and sick within their print and have instead voting in a democratic primary. And he had not counted on the democrats offering real alternative for the first time in election like that in wisconsin. That was just one more miscalculation on his part, made mccarthys role as a king maker easier than it might have been otherwise. Absolutely. Think mccarthy himself was a little surprised to get to washington. He arrives out there, and you say bob there from these start. Early unfocused. He did not find his mark right away. We do he did not find his mark for your being kind to him. He gets at the start of 1947 i dont think he really found his mark until early 1950. He tried lots of issues. Some issues that were legitimate issues like housing, for returning servicemen, spell a soldiers of world war ii. Some that were outrageous and may have suggested an element of antisemitism. Like defending the perpetrators of one of the deadliest massacre of u. S. Troops during world war ii. The famous massacred defending the nasi perpetrators. In suggesting the jewish prosecutors could not be objective about it because they were jews. After all this was a victors justice. He tried just about everything in terms of an issue to grab onto. It was not until february of 1950 that he found one that turned out to be magical for him. He went and lets talk about that. Lets also understand that because he was outrageous and a bit bumbling. And because the Democratic Party was sort of starting to get its act together waiting the attorney generals drop in wisconsin in 1948 with tom fairchild, truman when the state and 48. Mccarthy was starting to get a little face that he might be vulnerable. He wanted to make a name, right . He was looking for something. I would go so far as to say he was getting a little desperate to have some focus for his senate career. Because he is coming up for reelection. If you have made through three years and youre still looking like a back denture and like a patsy to take on by any ambitious democrat because you look so weak and illdefined, he was desperate. He was desperate because it wouldve been an an embarrassment to lizs battle for reelection. And he is desperate because holding onto power. Whether or not he knew hes going to do with that power was one of the things that was most vital to joe mccarthy. He had made it at very young age to point i think only in his wildest dreams did he ever concede he would make it to. The idea of having that all taken away from him made him desperate. Which is why he was willing to find the issue, to latch onto it at that point. Where the great things in your book as you discovered in your research was that he went to wheeling, West Virginia with two speeches. In my right . Guest you are exactly right. Wheeling, West Virginia auras staffers, willing, west by god virginia, or talk in february 1950 on the one day of the year when republicans all across the country do the same thing which is ought abraham lincolns birthday they celebrate they rally their money and the party and raise money if you are prominent u. S. Senator you get invited to places like milwaukee or boston. Like washington or new york. When you are like joe mccarthy you get invited to wheeling, West Virginia. He shows up there that night as you suggest with two speeches in his briefcase. One is a snoozer on National Housing policy. Which is something he actually knew a bit about and kind of cared about. And had he picked that speech to give that night, seven years later you and i would not be talking about him. Because he probably wouldve been that one term center we have been talking about. Instead, he pulls out of his briefcase a speech that i am convinced he read for the first time when he was delivering it that night. Whos written by a journalist and various staffers who did the editing on it. And he holds up in his hand a sheaf of paper. As part of the speech he says i have in my hand a list of 205 spies at the u. S. State department. They are people that truman should have known about. He shouldve gotten rid of this is a scary thing. He was doing this at a moment and American History when we were scared to death about the soviet threat. It was not just the soviets. We had watched very recently the National China turn into red china. We had watched the atomic spies, ethel and Julius Rosenberg be arrested, tried and convicted. We are about to teach our children something younger listeners tonight wont believe. But it was a socalled duck and cover strategy. Which is when the atomic bomb comes, people your hands over your head when you duck under your desk and youll be okay. And that is how petrified we were. Joe mccarthy understood those fears better than just about anybody. He understood that rather than just saying there were traitors in our government, if you named encounter the traders that was the cowboy away to capture americas imagination. He also understood something that i think was the ultimate in cynicism. Which is if he delivered a bombshell of a speech like that in washington, the journalists who were listening what have known who to call instantaneously at the state department for comment. Had he delivered a speech like that in the afternoon as a lunch speech, the journalists on a deadline wouldve had plenty of time to call their washington colleagues in find who to call for comments. He delivered the speech at nigh night. He delivered with only two reporters who mattered in the audience. One from the local wheeling newspaper and won the local ap reporter. And what happened after words was just what mccarthy dreamed of. Within two days he was on page one of every newspaper in america. And he never turned back. This was the birth of joe mccarthy in terms of being associated with the anticommunist issue. This was the birth, i think that night of mccarthy. I would agree with you. Also the other interesting part of it was really was by the seat of his pants for the number changed all of the time. The number changed. I changed noah back for the bunch of numbers. The two he came back most is 205 which is what he said and wielding. In his personal and professional papers the wonderful stash of material at Marquette University there were a bunch of different numbers in the various versions of the speech. Is 205 that was crossed out by but the other number kept going back to what 57. And without making too light of it, one of the places it was suggested got the number 57 was he loved hamburgers and stakes. And may be on the way to his dinner he stopped at a restaurant, port heinz 57 sauce on and that number captured his imagination. Now i dont believe it. On the other hand i think given how fatuous the number 205 was, it could have come from anywher anywhere. There were not 205 names in his sheaf of papers. And there were not 205 spies that we know to this day at the state department. Host this is where it gets interesting. As you Say Something that could easily been checked out, easily challenged, the numbers were not steady. The reality didnt line up with what he was saying. And yet in relatively short order he was chairing National Hearings and speaking to the whole country. Being paid an immense amount of attention. At least for a period there, a lot of people who should have gotten in his way or should have slowed him down, didnt. The media as well as the Political Class gave him a lot of space in which to operate. Guest on the one hand i want to agree with you. And not just because you are here john. One of the only newspapers it was right on John Mccarthy almost from the beginning which are Capital Times. And a lot of people took it on the chin by being right in a way he attacked them. But the truth is, even of people called him out at the beginning it looks like he had a free rid ride. He was called out very early on by a senator named Millard Tydings from maryland. Tydings head of the special committee to investigate mccarthy. He did not mince a word recall mccarthy a fraud and a hoax. And what happened sent the lesson to anybody could be tempted to likewise call him out. That November Mike said he delivers a speech, mccarthy. Famous speech in february 1950. That spring tydings and his colleagues come out with a report calling him a hoax. And that November Mccarthy is in maryland having recruited a republican to run against him. Havent gotten his wealthy texas benefactors to back this republican. Having lent the republican, a guy named butler, mccarthys bag of dirty tricks. And having beaten an incredible titan of maryland politics, Millard Tydings. The same way he took down bob love follett junior in wisconsi wisconsin. That sent a shockwave to descendents. The message was very simple. Take on joe mccarthy and be aware of the bulldozer. And yet barbara chase smith did take them on and a few others. Guest i just have to say word about Margaret Chase smith, she is a favorite of mine part she is the only woman in the senate, she is a senator from maine. Margaret chase smith took on joe mccarthy early on. Even though mccarthy and his classic charming side had promised Margaret Chase smith that he had put her name up for Vice President for whoever got the nomination in 1952. And Margaret Chase smith had enough conviction that she authored what was called the declaration of conscience, condemning mccarthy for his unamerican activities in the way he had grilled witnesses and ignored their rights. Everything about his campaign was offensive to her. She takes to the senate floor, she finds six moderate republican sign onto her. Mccarthy tried to do to her what he did to Millard Tydings. First he was the master of the namecalling. He dubbed her snow white and her seven dwarfs. Her fellow senators. Then he took to maine and tried to beat her. And smith was Strong Enough as a candidate that he couldnt beat her. But she lost and ran a much closer election that she had the time before. And lastly, i dont what i want to say about Margaret Chase smith issues a rather unexceptional senator. The one things we remember about her today, this is sort of suggesting something to other demigods. The one thing we remember about her she had the courage to stand up to joe mccarthy at a time when almost nobody was. That should be encouraging to people who find that courage favored over the years theres not many of them. As we speak of the long shadow , i did want to note that Margaret Chase smith speech calling mccarthy out for an incredibly destructive approach and use of his platform. Came fullcircle during the brick kavanaugh hearing. Because when Susan Collins voted to confirm brick kavanaugh, you had Mitch Mcconnell on the floor of the senate comparing Susan Collins supported donald trump not only for the Supreme Court to Margaret Chase smith. Speech is a Susan Collins was seven was incredibly helpful to me for the book. And it was interviewed. It was long before his writing my book. She held the same gavel with joe mccarthy had as chair of the permanent subcommittee on investigations. And she decided after 50 plus years of all of his closeddoor hearings being under lock and key. She decided to make those transcripts public. Those give us a sense of joe mccarthy unhinged. So when i interviewed her i knew that her role model as a senator was Margaret Chase smith. And i said are you intending to take this to heart in terms of what you do as a senator . It is very clear that she adores Margaret Chase smith. And she sees herself as a model of following and Margaret Chase smith footsteps. Her opponent in the Current Senate race the Heated Senate race in maine doesnt do that. Everyone is doing this Margaret Chase smith model sake rather than looking at her as Susan Collins role model is saying youve let down Margaret Chase smith. Whether she has or not, the voters of maine will decide in this election. Host has a very political answer my friend. [laughter] but i honor your reference there. I think the documents that you got for those hearings, the main cereals that you got access to was incredible. Ive a lot of new material that comes to joe mccarthy. Switch is very lucky to have that material. You know it was not because i was charming that i got that material. I think in terms of the wonderful marquette files the reason they opened them up with two reasons. One was i was enough of a pasty oil way to get rid of me wouldve been to open it. The other is i had an incredibly important ally who was greta van susteren, urban van susterens daughter. And that wonderful tv personality. The marquette people were interested in helping me make sense of those documents. They were as surprised as i was without the axis. Sadly a set of the being open generally theyre open the is look at them. They are now temporarily under lock and key again. Stomach he wrote the hell out of them. [laughter] i appreciate saying that. Thank you. Rosa most striking thing from looking at those documents the shocking thing to me as we expect the politician to be more outrageous and the cameras are there watching what theyre doing you can be reasonable, joe mccarthy flip that script. His more reasonableness public hearing which is a sign since she was not especially reasonable bear of how unhinged he became in the private hearing. And i think he did a couple things. One, was any notion of witnesses having any real rights went out the window. They were presumed guilty from the start. A second was he held in violation of Senate Tradition one man hearings. And when the one man, joe mccarthy was guiding turn the hearings over to sophomoric staffers like roy collins to do the grilling ending violation peoples rights on his behalf. The other thing was i think he use those hearings as a test run for witnesses whod set up to and they did not show up in public hearings. Easily pressed or caved into him they were the perfect patsies he wanted in the public pretty got to run these wonderful test drugs. With rules and propriety went out the window. Because nobody was there to keep him in check. This incredibly jarring and incredibly disturbing moment in American History. Not only did those public hearings Heated Senate hearings is when the lessons i want to bring out as we read your book. You do a very good job of talking about her helping us understand the intersection of modern media. And the demigod. Switch it again the history book version of what happened to joe mccarthy is it was a leprechaun like lawyer from boston named joe welch. Who in the middle of the hearings of mccarthy attacked his young associate welch defended him by saying senator give no sense of decency . That was a moment that turned everything around. I was a two quick things about that. One was hes a good actor as he was a lawyer. And he had that line ready to go. Knowing mccarthy would step over any sense of propriety. Whether its attacking his young associate or something. Hes ready to go with that line. What brought them down in my mind was the public seeing with day after day of televised testimony that is not this heroic champion that they started out believing. He was more like the town bully. In the course of those hearings he went from the gallup poll saying he starting out with a 50 favorability. Which meant as a popular public figure in america, the only one he trailed was dwight eisenhower. By august and the end of the hearings he was down to 34 . And that is when his fellow senators developed the backbone and were willing to take him on. A demagogue looks great when theyre up 50 . They start looking vulnerable when their numbers fade and enablers stop enabling. Sue atlas talk about enablers peerless go to the question some summer great audience here. And the question that they most want me to it ask you is about roy cohen. And particularly what is mccarthys relationship with roy cohen tells about her current president . Because of course this is the intersection between the two. Switch it if anyone does know roy cohen as he was a brilliant and arrogant young lawyer with a record of successfully prosecuting communists that joe mccarthy brought jan in 1953 when he took over the permanent subcommittee on investigations. And roy cohen was an alter ego. I think he reinforced every bad instinct in Joe Mccarthys bone bones. And roy cohen was the first choice for that job. But if we were doing a what if, with a what if he hired to second choice. Because a second choice of that job was Bobby Kennedy. Would joe mccarthy be a different joe mccarthy if he didnt have roy cohen whispering in his ear it was the one date liberal icon Bobby Kennedy. Book roy cohen, flash roy cohen being mccarthys enabler, roy cohen helping bring down mccarthy by having kicked off a lot of the controversy that gave us the Army Mccarthy hearings greatly flashforward 50 years. Roy cohen is not so young. He is still brilliant and arrogant. And a guy named. Trump and a guy named donald trump, when donald trump was entering the cutthroat world of new york real estate, his dad and he recognized that he needed somebody to advise him. To instruct them how to get involved with that world. And who better than the guy who had learned at the knee joe mccarthy to command and deal with someone with a cutthroat environment. Royko and passed on mccarthys lessons to trump. And trump has said repeatedly during his presidency, when he gets into trouble i sure wish i had a roy cohen by my side to help me out with this. What i really think hes saying is i wish i had a joe mccarthy at my side to tell me how to deal with this. See when that takes us to a second question, you referenced it was the relationship between joe mccarthy and Bobby Kennedy. You are the rare circumstance here done biographies of both men. Lets get him Bobby Kennedys head for a moment here. And figure out how much did Bobby Kennedy agree with joe mccarthy . How much did he find him a charming man . Going to back off or one second say one thing. If theres anybody young in our viewing audience tonight, watching john for the embodiment of how a good journalist asked really Smart Questions but you dont often see it because you see the history in the newspaper after words. Ive done a lot of these things there really terrific questions. So to go to Bobby Kennedy and joe mccarthy, they were on exactly the opposite trajectories in terms of their career. Robby kennedy starts out as not just a joe mccarthy staffer but a joe mccarthy true believer. He believes that joe mccarthy and his cause of anti communism in the cold war era were righteous very started out his life as a cold war, democrat. But he was a cold war in a relatively conservative guy. He is on his way to becoming the iconic liberal figure in modernday American History. Mccarthy starts out his life as this liberal that Bobby Kennedy becomes oneday. He is on his way to becoming the height iconic cold war conservative that even 70 years later he remains an icon too much of the conservative movement in america. And the idea that the intersected was for a single reason we talked about early on. It is because Papa Joe Kennedy said they ought to come togethe together. Whatever joe kennedy did, whatever joe kennedy asked for bobby did britain whatever he asked her mccarthy four, joe mccarthy did. He saw a union for anything joe kennedy, who was a classic realpolitik classic political figure understood that bobby would get tutored by the master. Its ironically the same feeling i think had. Trump bring in roy cohen years later. They both felt their sons ought to know how to fight in dirty politics, tough politics whatever you want to call it. They had master tutors teaching them that. I think a lot of lessons joe mccarthy top robby kennedy, bobby ended up using later on behalf of the rule causes area. Host from her questions and the crowd here tonight, youll understand you are in madison wisconsin, town filled with researchers. There actually several questions on how you did the research on the book. Very interesting. One of them is at the Historical Society here in wisconsin, did you find materials they are that were of interest to you in regards to all this . Whether any materials that particularly stood out . They were wonderful materials of the Historical Society. I dont say too much about that. There is a peas due out soon that adjusted the last edits on last night. I cant remember, i am terrible on names. The name of the wisconsin Historical Society magazine, was it called . Wisconsin history maybe . I think youre pretty much there. Whatever that is great some of the material will be in there. Ill just say to understand the context of wisconsin politics, the staff at the Historical Society documents were almost as good as sitting down with john and dave, had assays last name . We for. I am an idiot for massachusetts it comes in knowing something about the kennedy but nothing about wisconsin politics. And anything i got right i would attribute to people like john print anything i got wrong about wisconsin politics is on me. But the Historical Society was really wonderful to me. The idea having two sets of archives like marquette nw hs is an often a historians a dream. See what i know the mccarthy materials at the Historical Society particularly well done. Just of the article for the magazine youre writing for. Its an incredibly valuable resource. Festival more quick thing in terms of the understanding the history of mccarthy wisconsin . One thing that authors depend on his they can learn from all of the biographies that come before them. There lots of great with mccarthy. The idea that Thomas Reeves left his papers to the Historical Society. Left the interviews to the people who are long gone, like urban ancestor. Who i would never get to. Rather than just saying i could read it i quoted thats the only thing worth hearing hate actual notes from his interviews. We all have a responsibility to do that. We built every new biography has a bit more material. And yet it is rare for people to do that. I was really lucky that people like reeves did it and it was sitting there at the wisconsin Historical Society for me to it tap. Stu and thats very true and very appropriate. That gives us another question here. It is brave, not to complement you and where anothers kind of braved a tick on somebodys had a lot of books written about them. You have to assume you can write something more that you can add to the canon. You are too polite to phrase the question probably ought to be phrased. Which is why did the worldly the hundred first biography of John Mccarthy . Partly is you stimulus a something different. Partly it was that the story seem timely for the reasons we were talking about not just of our history but of today. And partly i almost walk the plank and fell off at exactly a week after i told my publisher and my wife that i was not going to get access to the marquette archives. And to all of the papers from the Naval Hospital i was counting on to understand mccarthys health situation. I think was critical to what ended up happening to him. In both cases, exactly a week after said it was not going to happen, i was shocked that it happened. It was lucky for me that it happened. Would i have had a book breaking new ground . Who knows. I did have the transcripts of the closed door hearings. They had been out for a while but nobody taken a really deep dive on them. But i was lucky. I was a pain in the neck as i said people end up saying yes on those. Sue in this book is getting a lot of attention right now. You just had a very lovely, kind of the authors divert interview and the New York Times the other day. And i am wondering whether you think, is much as you move the ball down the field. As much is this book did add to our understanding of mccarthy that it would be getting the attention that it is. If barack obama was still president of the united states. If theres a different person in the white house. Switch it good question, short answer no. Longer answer, i would not have written the book of is a different person in the white house. It is partly a matter of luck and partly a matter of timing on any but getting attention. Especially on a historic figure that weve seen so much of in the past. Sue had let me ask as we circle around here to the end. A question about the impact of mccarthy. Im a big fan of that term long shadow in your subtitle. One of the things joe mccarthy did in going after communists and fellow travelers, and people he accused of things was that he targeted a lot of africanamericans. Not just him, but the hull red scare targeted people like Coleman Young and others who have been involved in the Civil Rights Movement. You think that mccarthyism slowed down or had an impact of the rise of the civil rights in the Civil Rights Movement in this country . Speech i think mccarthys greatest impact is the one we know him for. Which is the anti movement. He did as Much Movement to the anticommunist is much as he did to communists or three other movements remain important movements today. That meant parthia jumped in on and did some really despicable things. One isnt theres lots of evidence that he might have been and antisemites. Number two is he was clearly a yea basher and one of the orchestrators of what was called the lavender scare. And the others the whole issue of race. He was on the wrong side of tha that. I think mccarthyism when it is used broadly today by everybody to sort of slur the people they do not like, that should have a wide net to cast but because joe mccarthy had a wide net. I dont know whether at his heart he was a racist or antigay or really antisemitic. I think he was willing as an opportunistic to play to anything he thought was going to work. I think he was ironically more than anything anti elitist. An anti his notion of what elites were. So he was anti east coast anti west coast. Anti wall street. That was playing to a lot of populist but perverting a lot of populist sympathies. The reason i wont use the word demigod rather than populace is i dont think he was a populist. To me, populism has a lot of upside to it. He was a demigod and there is not a whole lot to do it the upside of that or bully. Awfully good place to circle around too. I will make the interviewers mistake of asking one last question rather than letting it leave on a perfect point. That is to ask you youve written so many powerful books , are you working on Something Else now . Guest i am part of type really the title and a predicate to a deadline for this next boo book. It is my reward to myself and my publishers reward today for having spent three years with joe mccarthy. It is a book called the jazz bed jaz cme n. In the subtitle is a better job of explaining what it is, subtitle is how Duke Ellington , Satchmo Armstrong and count paci transformed america. I think there are not three better people you could spend time with. And i think theres is an incredibly uplifting story of how they change the racial horizon of america and set the table in many ways for the Civil Rights Movement. Sue and, what a way to clean up the having dealt with mccarthy thing there. Thank you. This has been fabulous forgot to ask quite a few of our questions from folks. Ive had a wonderful crowd of about a hundred with us tonight. I want to thank the book festival folks, the library folks. All of the other people that help with this together. What to remind people that is in fact the wisconsin magazine of history that you and i have both written for. And you will have an article coming out very, very soon for a think with that we will turn it back to our host. Safeco acacia really quickly, want to thank john who was a terrific interlocutor tonight. [applause] and i want to thank conor it was really wonderful in assembling this program and having to deal with my incessant emails. So thank you. Really larry you are not among even the most evil sent me an email today. [laughter] i am a leaguer to say thank you to both john and to larry prethank you both so much for this was absolutely wonderful. Exactly the kind of Conversation Book Club likes to have my purse taking the time here in the middle of a beautiful madison july evening. And to all of you gathering from all over the country thank you as well. I do also want to mention partners at the madison institute. Many of you found out about this event through them. Theyre always wonderful to work with. I know. Is here somewhere. And i also want to mention our bookselling partners. Larry is only here because he wrote this brook. Emily get to do this because you buy the book and the memes right now during quarantine, please click the button near the bottom of the screen. Green button. Im sure larry has a local bookstore as well. I want to support your bookstore. I want to make an offer that maybe nobody will find attractive. But when you put in your book order, if you want personalized but if you wanted signed, would normally be doing a book signing. Just indicate that you put in the order part i will send a signature plate personalized to you. Im sure the bookstore is no white problem letting me do that part dont say one last thank you which is too. Was extraordinary person we dont see up on the screen toda today. He supportive of me in the Bobby Kennedy book. And in this import he is an extruded guy. Thank you all. What weeknights this month for featuring book tv programs is a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. Tonight, we focus on covid operations. First, former fbi special agent talks about the early years of the u. S. War on terror. Then, crisp little talks about former cia directors to provide an inside look at the intelligence organizations, operations. And later, the book the great secret which looks back at the sinking of 17 allied ships in italy in december 1943. That starts at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Enjoy book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2. This week center for Public Affairs Virtual Event to bring your floors and trap florida congressman matt gates. Gates is currently serving his second term in the House Speaker of representatives but he is a member the House Speaker Armed Services committee and judiciary committee. His work in congress focus on national security, Veterans Affair and adherence to constitutional principles. During todays conversation, congressman gates has his new book firebrand. A book he is quoted as saying is your invitation lines of our fight. John with ideas, energy, images and stories for thi