When talking about people. Here is the book, the yards between us a memoir. Rk russell is the author. You think your publisher in this book as well. This is the first book by this publisher. Rk i am on the first lead of imprints. You will see a little more of him a little later live at the National Book festival but right now, here is an author discussion on environmental activism. Doug brinkleyi am kevin butterf. Im one of the sponsors of this years conference. The quinn be association helps us do our work. Waukomis live on cspan. History is heating up Climate Change denial. His most recent book is silent spring revolution. David is the author of two New York Times bestseller and our moderator jen white is supposed of one in from w amu please join me in welcoming them. Good morning everyone and thank you for coming out for this conversation. As youre listening i hope you will form your own questions because we will have time at the end of the panel you can step up to td i tell you and start the process. Its always exciting to speak to people as accomplished as david and douglas but more exciting when you get on phone call plan this conversation and their fans of each others work. They were absolutely delighted to speak to one another. I wanted start this discussion by giving us a brief overview. Minus silent spring revolution. As the great environmental awakening and i previously had written about theater roosevelt and conservation called the wilderness warrior about the 200 million acres that were saved through national lands, parks, reserves reservations, the forest service. I consider that the first year first wave of environmentalists that i wrote about fdrs error who he was the tree planter. When he filled out a form he wrote tree farmer as a job. He was a scientific farmer. Eleanor roosevelt said he knows every flower, note, create any hudson river valley. And i can rattle off National Parks. He created big bend on dd. The normandy invasion was going on. He created 800 state parks and planted the civilian conservation corps trees. The first two waves, the third wave is this book. Its about three president s, no roosevelt. It happened after 1945, the atomic age. We started blowing up Nuclear Weapons in nevada. We detonated 1054 Nuclear Weapons between 19461991. There became an antinuclear Testing Movement which Rachel Carson was a part of and many others. Khairat asked scott king, norman cousins, albert schweitzer. Under kennedy we stopped testing with Nuclear Weapons and made a deal with khrushchev in britain so we dont test those weapons. In my book i ended with kennedy who loved cape cod. Point raise in california, padre island texas. He was trying to save shorelines before he was killed. I deal with things like the first big Clean Air Act of 1963. Lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson had a ranchers of conservations. Lady bird was about beautification and antibillboards and help save places like redford national forest. There is much more i can tell you about the job and the books in the mix and environmentalists. What is your walden pond . Kennedy was hyannis, atlantic seaboard. Johnson and the hill country of texas. Nixon did not have one. It was not his thing, the environment. But the public demanded clean air, clean water to the point that nixon was forced into his credit to create the National Environmental act. Which gave us like Clean Air Act. He didnt want to but got it done. Created the epa in 1970 and put a great woman, in charge of it who busted polluters. We are all meeting here at the book festival. It was 50 years ago that the endangered species act passed. We sent the bald ego, manatees, california condors, whooping cranes, alligators. Alligators came back with a vengeance. 50 years ago we were successful but without passed in 1973 920. It was that bipartisan because after silent spring came out and walt disney was showing how to protect wildlife and their movies and ralph nader and others were talking about consumer advocacy and had a group of environmental senators. Linden johnson side the wilderness act because that we have millions of acres of protected land that roads will not penetrate to give species a place where they can replenish and survive with all of this helterskelter of the industrial law that we seem to be helping out are propagating in north america and destroying our scenic places. Jennifer explain the title. When you mention endangered species as a celebration of books it makes me anxious as a reader. One of the things that douglas was saying is should fdr been focusing on National Parks on dday . Jennifer he was the birdwatcher and fdr went to charlottesville and they did not want to give the media clue. So when he was out birdwatching that was the military approach. He kept whatever his days agenda was. If you canceled it they would think Something Big was happening. He happened to have booked that day an appointment with eamon carter who grew sated in texas to save big band park and roosevelt wanted a park between mexico and the United States with the rio grande creating one big bio along the border. He said he was going through with his meetings to not give anyone an idea that there is something going on. David my books are soft nixon comes in. When we were talking on the phone and it seem like you can think of our books as godfather one and godfather two. [laughter] he is a fascinating purpose of love what doug was saying about what the Environmental Protection act showed that how our action as voters and people take polls. Nixon did not care about the environment at all. The famous thing is when he went to the beach she wore a dress shoes. He would think i was showing too much skin if i was on the beach. He was forced to because everyone in the country really wanted their environment cleaned up. The year that he signed it as one of the Bright Moments in an otherwise dismal year. That same year, president nixon told executives from four that environmentalists what they want to do is go back and live leg dam, dirty animals. They wanted to destroy the system. Since we want a air and water and sky he had to sign in as president nixons coast calling in today. But because we demanded it, he was known to improve more environmental legislation than any president in history. My book is about ironies like that. The quickest way to describe it is to say with the title is. In 1956, american climate scientists began speaking with american reporters and said we have been tracking an issue about Carbon Dioxide. There is a good chance it will begin to heat our atmosphere. One of the most prominent climate scientists gave it a year. He said around 50 years from 1956. It could have a violent reaction to the earths climate. This was covered in the times. The times said, in the far future, if Carbon Dioxide warming effect, the polar regions will change to tropical jungles where tyler tigers will run through the underbrush and paris will squat from the trees. We had an astonishing head start which is one of the stories i wanted to tell. In 2010, after the work of tremendously effective move musicians, people who decide what mood they want your opinions to play and find a way to make sure of that in your head. In 2010, one of the great senators built an igloo on the mall and see because there had been heavy snowfall. He put a sign on top that said al gores new home and honk if you love Global Warming. The story my book tells is how we went from the parent to the say glue two that igloo. One of the things i am always curious about is when we look at history, what lessons can we take . David, give us a brief look at an example. David listen to scientists. [applause] in 1977, the most famous warning came in the 70s and it is because pure get most famous warning since the 70s, in 1979, the academy of National Sciences did the first big report. It was 270 pages. Around half the length of this. They said we have to start acting now and cannot wait until we are sure. Because it takes a whole generation to change energy sources. For all practical purposes the die will be passed be cast will be cast. To your point, in the 1960s, they chose it. There was a motion that we listen to the experts. There was a warning about pesticides being detrimental to your health. There was a warning about effects on animals and humans. Kennedy was asked, what about Rachel Carsons article in the new yorker. He set i will put in an advisory panel. He came up with a pretty quick report that proved carsons research was accurate. Yet, it took a decade to ban ddt. It was not until 1970 two. Rachel carson dies of Breast Cancer in 19 60 four. There was a silent spring revolution. The big turning point was to convert the environmental wall in the 60s. Even as late as 1960 five and 1966, it was called conservation. Environment started kicking in due to commoners and scientists using the term environments which took hold and ddt got banned by nixon in 1972. It is the people. We have to speak up. These reports are all there. I deal with them in my book like david. Ravel in the 50s and the Kennedy Administration had a loose document going on around Climate Change. Johnson in 1965 try to give a speech about it. He had medicaid and medicare and vietnam and civil rights so it got buried in the media. I print, almost verbatim, a memo. Does anyone remember Daniel Patrick moynihan . Brilliant. He writes john ehrlichman, the domestic advisor for nixon, that he has done an investigation and scientists are saying we are in big trouble to admissions. In the letter, it says, what does this mean . It means goodbye. Verdict unknown. In the white house. Then, jimmy carter trying to put solar panels on the white house and get glory warts 40 get gl obal reports. The truth is, we failed. There is no climate hero president for the reasons david marks in his book. The oil and Gas Petroleum industry started in 1973 with the arab oil embargo. Gas prices went up and they had their own groups to start attacking environmentalists. In the famous powell memo, they said it would take 30 years to undo all the wind from environmentalists in the early 60s and 70s. If you are a mining company, you do not want to be regulated. You dont want the federal government. This movement in the 60s, as david brower said, not only did they win, they had fun. They put dams in the grand canyon and the Environment National monument. William douglas, Supreme Court justice, hides 106 156 miles to stop a highway from coming in. Win after win after win. But in 1973 and certainly by 1980, the revolution kicks in. Now if you are an environmentalist, you are seen as a democrat and vilified by republicans. Republicans are seen as captains of the oil and gas industry, and new foundations that were born like the federalist society, cato institute, and heritage foundation, whose goal it was to undo Rachel Carsonism. It makes the wonder what you discovered about how the American Public viewed the governments role in addressing Global Warming. Whether our protection of the role the government should play changed . David it did not which i find reassuring. It is a story that is all irony. I always left it to doug. How odd that republicans are seeing this way. What a terrible ministry they would be seen as working with the also fuel industry and help continue to make profits. [laughter] it is mystifying. The game has been to make us change our minds like what doug was saying. Was it was clear as the people demand that we get environmental regulations so even, then governor reagan, who have such a room effect. Hope i am not offending anybody who that report. In 1967 or 1968, he said if you have seen one redwood, you have seen them all. But then, we had a motherhood issue, the idea being, who is against motherhood . As governor reagan was saying, we need an all out war to stop the debunking the debauchery of the american government. When his administration saw this , those human beings who resemble a ir saying, here is the best way to see it do it who resemble ai were saying, here is the best way to do it. Then in 1997 after a First International climate warning protocol, when they said, it is not fair. China will have will not have to kick in. Russia will not have to kick in. It is not global, it will not work. They pulled americans and 65 said we want to control our Carbon Dioxide a matter what other nations do. Then after and other tenures of the fight when the ipcc says, just like scientist told you in 1956 and 1979, this is what is happening. Across the board, republicans and democrats all wanted action to be taken, because everyone have to go outside, even if it is just to get in your car. It is something that unites everybody. The astonishing action done by people and their fossil fuels was just a stand in the way of our opinion. Douglas sometimes environmental and natural disasters wake people up. As we are here this afternoon, our hearts go out to maui, hawaii and 80 dead. It is the largest disaster in history and we can almost feel more of these coming. You can just feel it. The reason we had an epa in 1970 was the Santa Barbara oil spill. In color, in your living rooms, for the first time, you were seeing in paradise. Tar and goo. Nixon first minimize it. His first instinct was it was not that big a deal that he listened to his interior secretary, went to the ground in who went to the ground in Santa Barbara and said, do not minimize it. It is bad. Plus, we have only been in office for seven days. Plan blame it on johnson. [laughter] but then the rivers were on fire and then gaylord nelson, a senator from wisconsin who saved 22 beautiful islands in wisconsin, and did so much work, came up with the idea on the first day. Then nixon started planning out earth day. But he was suspicious because at every College Campus, there is an earth day office. Nixon asked the important question, who is paying for this . How did he spring up on every College Campus . Where is the money coming from . He got a big bill. April 22, richard, from united automobile workers because there was a green labor alliance. His view was working people may not be able to go to yosemite or yellowstone. They will be living in flint, michigan or somewhere and need clean areas, clean fish, clean picnic areas. That is why he was talking about Environmental Justice issues. In american history, we take our industrial debris or toxins or poisons and dump them into neighborhoods of color. You get cancerous clusters and spikes. In the 1960s, you start seeing the birth of the Environmental Justice movements with people like cesar chavez and where to and huertta huerta. Mexican American Children walking working in field. Dr. King getting killed. Drinking said what good does it do to integrate a lunch counter like greensboro, North Carolina if the book we are drinking has something bad in it. The environment has to grow to become seen as a civilrights issue. Andy said he looked at the montgomery bus boycott as an environmental issue. The black diesel of the buses in hot day in alabama was coming through the back. That is not where you want to sit because of the air. So there was a linkage to it. John lewis, one of the leaders in the Environmental Justice movement in the 60s also in the 80s, pushed through this issue to clinton. He started addressing, how do we do mediation remediation and cleanup and help, not poison lower income people, whether they are latino, native american , living around uranium mines, or black americans in urban centers where local neighborhoods are becoming dump stones. Jenn i am a detroit native and was in flint, michigan during the water crisis. I lived through and watched the results of the industrial dumping. Years and decades after the Automotive Industry have left flint, the effects still remain. When we look at the overarching history of Environmental Movements, have there been missed opportunities . Have there been people who were left behind or had we had parties come together, we might have been able to maintain policies . David i just had a memory. Hearing him speak. [laughter] [applause] there were huge missed opportunities. One funny when i forgot when i was researching was in 1977, there was a huge fight to try to get the first global treaty where europe, australia, and the u. S. Would all regulate their Carbon Dioxide. It took so long to get people to that meeting at the rio summit in 1991 and 1992. It would be the center piece that president clinton and president gore would run on. President clinton, after it passed at the 11th hour, the delegates were out at tables. It was right down to the last minute. When it was forwarded for adoption, these hardened diplomats were applied in curing it came. Were applauding. Then it came down to america because america wanted to take the lead on things. So president clinton was giving interviews to the times, saying it would take a huge amount of president ial energy and focus but we can get this done. Then 17 or 18 days later, there was a report about an error president clinton had been making for a long amount of time with monica lewin ski lewinsky. That became a very different use of president ial energy. Keeping moments like that throughout there cap to being moments like this throughout. In 1979, the National Academy of scientist was asked, give us robust opinion, will this happen . They only needed five days. They said the jury will bring back a quick verdict. They said this will be comforting to scientists but disturbing to policymakers. If the Carbon Dioxide release continues, this panel finds the reason to believe Climate Changes will not occur and will not be inevitable. When scientists went to brief lawmakers about this and this is how this city works and is a weakness in a way we have as people, as lawmakers asked scientists, when will these changes occur . These scientists said, give or take 40 years. The policymaker said, get back to us in 39. Jenn it makes me wonder, douglas, what are the conditions under which president s are more likely to include major environmental change in their agenda . Or conditions that makes the back off that . Douglas that is a great question. Some of you maybe remember the great naturalist e. O. Wilson, brilliant. He talked about biophilic people. People that love nature and the Natural World. People who need a cat or dog or wildlife around them, or they are not fully complete. He said others do not care about this issue. We have had only 1 igor roosevelt said, we would put Natural Resource management protection of america, the beautiful, as the top national priority. That is how we got so much done because he prioritized it. President s often only get one or two things they can be really big on. He thankfully did that and fdr elevated that. No one mentions those two had a love of the Natural World and wanted to know everything about it, like those. President obama, who did the Affordable Care act, was he got that big, significant thing, there was no gas left in the tank for climate. As your book pointed out. David what he said was, i think the dolphins will be ok for another year. Douglas it is how you prioritize. Most people would like to see beautiful water. But the politicized nation is frightening. Jenn what about the economy because we are talking about inflation and interest rates. How does this feel in the political agenda . One of the affirmations people in the Environmental Movement have is no important environmental legislation has ever been passed during bad economic times. It is just like if you have a downturn at kitchen table, you will get rid of netflix or get hulu with ads. [laughter] one of the things we do is, the dolphins will be ok for another year. We can make fun of the government for making that choice but that is the choice we tend to make too. One of the things about this issue is, in 1977 and 1979, when the signs deadwood tour was during a terrible Industry Energy when the signs did mature was during a Terrible Energy crisis. Rachel carson, who is a big figure in my book, worked for u. S. Fish and wildlife. She wrote three extraordinary books about the cd. If you have not read Rachel Carson on the oceans, you must. Her home is in silver spring, maryland. They are turning it into a park. She started getting information about ddt and pesticides that got relit. No one ever regulated it. They were spraying crops with chemicals. For example, jimmy carter, who is on hospice right now, and whose birthday is october 1 and he will be 99, everyone in his family died of pancreatic cancer. His mother, father, sister gloria, sister ruth, rather billy. He had left to go to the navy but in that part of the county, they were spraying that. So a cluster belt of people that died from pancreatic cancer. So Rachel Carson enters the battle because of a woman named marjorie spock. Does anyone remember dr. Benjamin spock . The baby doctor . This was his sister and she owned a piece of land. The usda were blanket spraying all the crops but she was an organic farmer. She was ahead of her time. She said, i want organic produce. She sues and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. That my rights were being taken away from me. She loses but in the Supreme Court, William Douglas writes a dissent that gets published. Douglas started to push what he called a wilderness bill of rights that we all have a godgiven right cleaned built air and water. And that should be built into our system. For a while, in the 1960s, it looked like it would happen. But then the opportunity missed and we now live in a country where there are pockets are poisoned and others that are not, instead of it being a guaranteed fundamental birth right. Jenn in our early conversations, we were planning this panel, i was surprised to hear from you david about polling of where americans are right now when it comes to Global Warming and the effectiveness of this information. You shared it is not that people do not believe Global Warming is not real, but there is another element at play in how we are processing this. David there was a great editorial. You guys read paul krugman . You guys did me to tell you a noble waiting nobelwinning columnist needs to be worth reading . [laughter] he said even people who know, they say the other side cares about the climate, so i hope it gets hotter. And i do not like snow anyway. One of the fascinating things about denialisms it was never designed to win the argument. The people who became climate deniers were trained by tobacco to learn how to attack scientific studies. It was the same for tobacco. They knew they would lose, if they could delay this for 10 or 20 years, they knew they had 10 or 20 years to continue to make money. For this issue, you did have people that believe the deniers. That is gone now. You control people 16 times or 32 times but when you get to 33 or 34 and we have a summer like the last couple, they will say, scientists were right. But then they will say, i still dont want to do anything. We are on the phone, one of the ways climate deniers would apply the issue and turn it around was a guy like Patrick Michaels who would complain to cn and you do not put enough skeptics on the air. Finally, cnn said who is the scientist we have most often talking about Climate Change on here . It was Patrick Michaels. He would go to small towns like in maine and try to get people to not actually care about the climate. He would say, forget all the science. They really want to take money you earned and give it to people who dont arent it. Douglas this was incredible in davids book and why you need to read it. America, i was worried the climate denying pastors are not going to pay for it denying bastards were not going to pay for it in history. His book nails them. When you read his book, there is no way of escaping the idiocy. The lying and being corporate captives. It is a bunch of buffoons that gave birth to this climate denial movement. I think david is right. You cannot deny it anymore, but now they say, so what . What can we do . The age of denial is over. But his book keeps it so people will realize used to have such bad faith citizens and politicians that were willing to go build the igloo. Jenn what do we do about the what about itism . People say, there is nothing i can do about it individually to make a difference. To pause and say, do you have questions for our panel, we have 15 minutes left. So please make your way to the microphones. But what do we do about that . I dont want to say anything else because it can just lower you and your estimation. Anything i say will just make me sound less smart. I really expect a climate scientist named katherine heigl. The question is, what do we do . I thought i would read her prescription. She says, when it comes to climate action, individual changes matter but systemic change is key. The most successful thing we can do is advocate for change where we work, live. Do i have time for a story . Do you remember the Keep America Beautiful add with the first people . Is walking in buckskin beside a highway and people are throwing fast food out the window . Maybe they did not get the right order in the drivethru but they are just tossing garbage out the window and it falls at the feet of an indian, as they referred to him in the 1970s. People have done studies that this was the most famous tier visibly. It has been seen Something Like five or 6 billion times. It made my generation conscious of environment and letter. The actual thing it was being paid for was Keep America Beautiful, which was funded by the beverage and packing industry. Funded by the people who make the bottles for pepsi and cans for coke. They were anxious in the early 70s about recycling which would cost them money. The slogan of that ad, which seems very thrilling to us was, people can stop this. But what they were really saying is, you have to do it, we will not do any rank. An ever they say we need to take independent action, it is a way for them to dodge action. [applause] and to be actor was sicilian. He was just a hired actor. Jenn i want to make sure we can get to as many questions as possible so we will pingpong back and forth. Thank you so much for this amazing conversation. You are brilliant and i look forward to reading your work. What are your thoughts on the Montana Youth that try to sue over Climate Change, and you think that approach is a worthwhile one . Professor james hampson, who i think is a great hero. It was an honor to tell his story. He thinks that is one great way. When democrats came back into power and until president biden, they did not make lasting change. He began to think the only way to be effective on this issue was through the courts. So yes, absolutely. Jenn next question. You talked about the economy and climate being seen as separate issues for a lot of politicians, especially with the obama example and idea that the dolphins can wait, but first we need to help people with health care. How about this focus on conservation and saving nature, and now i feel like a lot of climate movements as a shift to focus on peoples lives and how we are all in peril because of it . Especially with Climate Change in the culture wars. I was wondering, do you think that, going forward, there will be a suit for politicians and getting policy done in shifting toward talking about Economic Issues also as climate issues . And if the Health Care Costs that come with climate issues and reviewed rebuilding a city after natural disasters. Do you think there is a pathway forward where it is not just seen as a liberal save the trees thing but also as economic equality . Douglas was a great question. The best question you could have asked. In the sense that a lot of our solutions will come through innovation, finding new technologies. Up in rhode island with the biggest offshore wind farm, and what we are doing with solar, and new experiments with Hydrogen Fuel cells. It is a very robust way and we will have to be as environmentalist climate activists argue the money imperative. That we cannot keep going the way we are going. That we have to keep rebuilding city after city. Burning, dislocation and global costs. It is always good to make the leap and connect it. I think that is the hope for california. But when you are 20 or 30, you will not be able to get fossil fuel fill up in that country. What does this mean . It means ford and gm are starting to amp up. That is a big market in california. They dont have to sell electric cars. They are not wedded to the Natural World. I find hopeful things going on. Reminding people of economics of the smart business, the future, and american leadership. Also, very quickly, i tell young people to not get depressed. It is pretty hard. Do not become a climate activists. We do not need moody, sour, dark young people will. Talk about how we can save the planet. Join groups, have fun saving earth. You dont have the time to get into major Environmental Science or environmental if you dont have the time to get into major Environmental Science, great. But trying to get better air quality standards in their state. There is so much to do. If you join something and get engaged, we are going to grow. There will be so many citizens and there will be a moment that i am calling the fourth wave. It will kick in. The one thing of baby boomers have done well we deserve to be criticized, but we did get the terms ecology, and Environmental Science, and environmental law going. I dont know a university that is not prioritizing the environment and looking at Green Building standards. We are getting there. But as americans, we like things quickly, particularly with our iphones. We are eager to get out of the Industrial Revolution and moved to the green. It is taking time. You have to be in it for the long haul. To just love the planet and earned so much and fight for it in exciting ways. Be excited. No depression, no psychological meltdowns. I know it gets horrible. I get watching hawaii. I do. But i do not want to be a teacher saying, we are doomed, the plant is disappearing, the book of revelations is true. What good will that do . Jenn a couple more questions. I dont know how brilliant is, but im struck by her passion and im curious, at what age and window to get interested in the environment . Douglas my father just died a couple months ago, but my mother and father were teachers. We have the luxury of having a trailer and got to visit National Parks and state parks and go camping around our beautiful country. I fell in love with the badlands of north dakota and the redwood forests and the mojave desert. My whole life became american preservation and conservation. It is what i love. I o it to my mother and father in those travels. I did one of those things to the New York Times where they asked, who would i like to go to dinner with . That is a daunting question. What writers would you most like to have a dinner with . I thought hard and by first choice is henry david thoreau. I just loved his book and cape cod and the woods. Then i added Rachel Carson, who i have loved her thinking so much and charles goldwyn charles darwin, to show good writing can be messed with exploration. Jenn david, your background . David i thought you were going to ask about the dinner. [laughter] i dont know. Have lost relatives recently so the first thing i would do is just be with people who passed. I father passed during covid so i would probably have dinner with him. But i would like to sit down with roger ravel and say, you are exactly right. 50 years and it was 50 years. What got me into the environment . I cannot believe we got this screwed up. I wanted to tell the story so nothing like this would happen again. We had an incredible history and we did not act. That seemed like a story worth telling because there is so many great things we do as a people, that sometimes we do not always pay the bills we do not like paying on time. This was a great way to remind people. Jenn time for one more question. You talk about the political battle between republicans and democrats, but there is also the context of the urban rural divide. A lot of Rural Communities to rely on Natural Resources and fossil fuels to keep the going. How can we have conversations are productive that lead to fundamental lasting change . Jenn i would like to hear from both of you and we have a couple minutes left. Douglas if i go to toledo, ohio and talk to an audience of largely donald Trump Supporters and avoid using the word environment, and instead say, dont we all want lake erie clean . Yes. That we all want to fish the river again . Yes. But if i say the word environment, they think you are stalking horse for liberalism. They might want what you say it once. But you can feel their rigidness. If you start saying Climate Change or environment, they are out. I see it as a big democrat on the side. Some of it is the way we talk to each other. Sorry, i keep thinking and wanting to mention writers but read wendell berry. A librarian. His vision was, you go back to a small town. You see intellectuals in new york and los angeles go back to ohio and indiana. Work in the community and build trust on environmental issues. So what Sustainable Farming is like. It is hard to do what barry is suggesting, but it is beautiful to read his thinking. He is one of my favorite writers alive. Jenn david, quickly. David sure. Just because douglas was talking about writers, it was so well known by mid century. You know the novel alita, that came out in 1950 five but was written in the 1940s . He sent them to the arctic to research Climate Change. That is how long the science has been with us. Writers have always been a great way to chart the progress. The three of us had a great conversation about Environmental Justice. I would flip your question and look at it from the point of view of people in the cities