And next, more from a 2023 library of Congress National book festival. Im Kevin Butterfield john w center at the library of congress. The centers were the sponsors of this years festival. We are proud to help bring americas most beloved writers here. The center works among scholars and residents work on the collections of the Worlds Largest library. And to do work of the sort she will be hearing about today. Welcome to everyone for joining us live on cspan as well we are proud to partner cspan again this year this Panel History is heating up environmental awakening versus Climate Change denial injures douglas brinkley, david lipsky and janet white sent New York Times bestsellers six have been chosen as New York Times notable books of the year. His most recent is silent Spring Revolution. David is the author of two New York Times bestsellers an andartist in residence at nyu. Our moderator jen whitest host whiteassociate daily to our prom when apo from National Public radio. Please join me in welcoming them. [applause] good morning everyone thanks for coming out for this conversation. As you are listening i hope you will form your own questions we will have some time at the end of the panel to step up to the mike i will let you know when to start that process you can ask questions of our authors as well. Its always exciting to speak to people as accomplished as david and douglas but it gets even more exciting when you get on a phone call with them to plan this conversation you wrote is there such big fans of one another book they are absolutely delighted to speak to one another. I want to just start this conversation by having you each give us a brief overview of your work for people thought read the books yetiv. My book is silent Spring Revolution into john f. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and the great environmental awakening. I have previously written a book on Theodore Roosevelt and conservation called the wilderness warrior. That is about tr saved 234 million acres of wild00 america a public lands through National Monuments and National Parks and federal bird reservations created the National Forest service on and on. I consider that the first wave of environmentalism. Second wave i wrote a book called rightful heritage about fdrs era how fdr was a tree planter whenever he would fill out a form for occupation roosevelt would write tree farmer it like that is my job. As a scientific farmer on the hudson river Eleanor Roosevelt said he knows every flower, note, cranny of the hudson river and i can rattle off National Parks fdr created many like a big bend on dday. He did not cancel the meeting said he was designing roads and how to visit Big Bend Park in texas while the normandy invasion was going on. That is how deep he was at all this. He also created 800 state parks. They planted civilian conservation corps 3 billion trees. The first two waves the third wave is thiso book it really is about three president s note roosevelts but i really had to begin at 1945 after the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki. The birth of the atomic age of us are blowing up Nuclear Weapons willynilly in nevada we detonated 1054 Nuclear Weapons in america between 1946 and 1991. There became this big and tight Nuclear Testing movement which bristle carson was part of and many others norman cousins, Doctor Albert Schweitzer on a global way. But what is exciting is john f. Kennedy had the vision and temerity to sign the Nuclear Test Ban treaty. Candace astute diplomacy and ecological act of great importance occurred. We stopped testing Nuclear Weapons and made agreement with the soviet union and Great Britain today we cannot test those weapons. In my book i do with kennedy who loved cape cod. Cape Cod National Seashore point raised in beautiful california. Padre island, texas he was trying to save shorelines before he was killed i deal with things the first big Clean Air Act of 1963 in the followup one in 1970. Lady bird johnson had a ranchers view of conservation but as you know lady bird her whole life was about beautification and anti billboards and really help save places Like Redwood National park and create the wild and scenic trail system and our National River system. Much more i could tell you about the johnsons are in the book and nixon the unlikely environmentalist. I always say what is your walden pond . Whatat place in the audience nature speaks note most you . Hellenic seabird, johnson that river would be if the whole a wholecountry of texas. Nixon did not have one. [laughter] it was not his thing, the environment. But you guys the public demanded clean air demanded clean water to the point that nixon was forced into his credit did it. The National Environmental policycy act which Environmental Impact statements, did the Clean Air Act and 72. He did not what to but he got it done. Mainly create the Environmental Protection agency in 1970 put a really great man in charge of it who went after busting polluters and ill end my little talk and say you guys we are all meeting at the National Book festival it is 50 years ago the endangered species act to past where we have saved the bald eagle. We have saved manatee. We have forever protected california condor and whipping cranes in sandhill cranes and alligator taunts back with a vengeance. Who were reallygo successful but do you realize what that passed in 1973 with the vote was in the u. S. Senate . Ninetytwo nothing. That is how bipartisan that was because the public after Rachel Carsons book silent spring came out people at walt disney were showing how to protect wildlife on their movies and how this ralph nader and others were talked about consumer advocacy and had a group of environmental senators mainly whom i admire most is frank church of idaho who was an original thinker of wilderness and Lyndon Johnson signed the wilderness act and 64 and thank god he did now we have millions of acres of protected land that roads will not penetrate so it givess speciesa place they can replenish and survive with all of this helterskelter of the t industrl that we seem to be hellbent on propagating in north america in the stringer scenic places david your book is a little bit different. Explain first the title. The title is the parent and the egli but before i do two things. You mentioned endangered species at a celebration of books it makes me anxious as a reader. [laughter] and the second thing from one of things doug was saying is should fdr have been focusing on National Parks on dday . Toxic dont know if i was the only person question. Because they were trying not to deflect he was a birdwatcher fdr went to charlottesville for they did not want to be worried they did not to give the media a clue. He was out birdwatching in charlottesville with some military friends of his roosevelts not doing much. So when he came in he kept whatever his days agenda was. If you cancell that the immediae would think Something Big would be happening he happened to book a long time meeting with carter if you go to ice the Amon Carter Museum is one ofin the great art collectors a rich guy who had been crusading in texas to save Big Bend Park. Roosevelt wanted it to be both a park that was between mexico and the United States with the rio grande in the middle creating one big a biosphere down along the border so he simply was going through with his meetings to not give anybody an idea there something going on. [laughter] that couldve appeared in the igloo . Nixon also there is a beautiful bridge between the two books. My book really starts right after it nixon comes in. So when we were talking on phone you can think of our books as godfather one and godfather two. [laughter] nixon is a fascinating person i love what doug was saying but what the Environmental Protection act shows about our action as voters and as people who take polls. Nixon did not care about the environment at all. The famous thing is when he went to the beach she would wear dress shoes. He would think i was showing too much skin if i was on the beach basically. But he was forced too because everyone in the country really wanted their environment cleaned up. He was saying the year he signed in the epa the New York Times said thats one of that really the reallybright moments and ote dismal year that same year president nixon was telling two executives from Ford Motor Company the environmentalists but they really want to do is go back and livehe like a bunch of dirty animals who what theyre interested in is destroying the system. But since we want to clean air, clean waters and clean skies he had site is as president nixons ghost calling in today. s chrysler wasnt Ford Motor Company. [laughter] because we demanded it he is improve more and significant environmental than anyone inl history. My book is about ironies like that the departed igloo the quickest way to describe it is to say what the title is. In 1956 american climate scientist began speaking with american reporters and they said we had been tracking this issue about Carbon Dioxide on theres a really good chance it will begin to heat our atmosphere. Roger ravel is on the first really prominent american climate scientists gave it a year. He said and about 50 years from 1956 it could have a violent effect on the earths climate. This sort of thing was covered by the times the times that october and he said that inmate they were working different seasons. The times said in the far future if Carbon Dioxide warming takes effect the polar regions will be changed to tropical jungles were tigers will run through the underbrush and gaudy parents will squawk from the trees. We had an astonishing head start which is one of the stories i wanted to tell. In 2010 after the work of tremendously effective mood musicians the people who decide to and they want your opinions to play and find a way to make you hear that in your head so would you say harmonizes with the effects they want. In 20101 of the great denial senators senator James Mountain and half of oklahoma built an igloo on the mall here in d. C. Because thered been the heavy snowee fall he put a sign on top that said al gores new home. And honk if you love Global Warming so the story my book tells us how he went from that. Too that igloo. [applause] one of things im always curious about will be look at history is what lessons we can take. Especially lessons doesnt seem we have quite learned yet. David, give us a brief example of a lesson we should have taken away from prior Environmental Movement. Listen to scientists. [laughter] [applause]te in 1977 the most famous warning that came in the 70s its because of the warnings ini begn reading about when i was deciding to write this book. The most famous warning from the 70s 1979 but two years earlier the National Academy of sciences did the first big report on Climate Change is 270 pages. About half the length of this. What they said is we have to start acting now. We cannot wait until we are sure because it takes a whole generation to change Energy Sources if we dont actho now fr all practical purposes the diet will ber cast. So listen to scientists. And it to your point david in 1960 Time Magazine shows scientists as the person of the year. And candidate have the first year at white house like a 70 plus approval rating. And so there was this motion we did listen to the expert so for example when Rachel Carson wrote silent spring in 1962 warning about pesticides being and detrimental to your health, having a carcinogenicth effect n animals and potentially humans kennedy was asked at a press conference but about Rachel Carsons article in the new yorker . He said im going to put in a Scientific Panel and Advisory Panel and look into a research if it holds up he found the best scientists and came up with a pretty quick fashion a report thatam proved carsons research was accurate. And yet at took a decade to ban ddt is not until 1972 Rachel Carson died of Breast Cancer and 64. Kennedy of course is dead and 63 but there became this movement i called silent Spring Revolution the big turning point in my mind was the birth of environmental law on the 60s. Even as late as 1965 and 66 it was called conservation Lyndon Johnsons program was the new conservation. But environments are kicking and do to Barry Commoner and scientists reduce the term environment it really kind of took hold and ddt got banned by nixon on in 72. The mid and all of this its the people we have to speak out. On Climate Chaos these reports are all there. Ideal for him and my book mike david. With ravel in the 50s talking the Kennedy Administration had a loose document going around about Climate Change and johnson and 65 tried to give a speech about it as early as 65 but he had a medicaid and medicare in vietnam Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights act they got. In the media flow i print almost verbatim in the book a memo i dont know if any of you remember Daniel Patrick moynihan new york sent a brilliance, he writes john of domestics advisor fort nixon hes done in aninvestigation said the scientists are saying we are in big trouble due to co2 emissions. And the letters has what does this mean . It means goodbye miami and new york city forever verdict on the seattle unknown. Truly, there it is in the white house. Well fight other president s, jimmy carter trying to put solar panels on the white house andrt get Global Reports for 2000 2000grade the truth is we faile. We are sitting here today theres no climate hero president for the reasons that david marks in his n book the ol and gas the Petroleum Industry started organizing in 1973 with the Arab Oil Embargo gas prices went up and they had their own groups and start attacking environmentalists. They said and the famous and memo it will take about 30 years to undo all the winds of the environmentalists of the 60s and early 70s. They do not like the companies with federal regulations. If you are a Mining Company you do not want to be regulated you do not want the federal government. This movement in the 60s David Broward said they when they had fun. They stop dam in the grand canyon and dams were stop through protest hikes. Canyon ant national monument. William douglas, Supreme Court justice, hides 106 156 miles to stop a highway from coming in. Win after win after win. But in 1973 and certainly by 1980, the revo luand if youre and youre vilified by the republicans and the republicans are seen as attractive oft the oil and gas industry and these new foundationsand role was l carson. In your research of your book, what did you discover of how the American Public view the governments rolee in addressing Global Warming whether our perception of government should play change . It didnt which i found really reassuring and heartening because it is the a story thats pretty much irony. I just pretty much want to say thatll i always loved talking to doug. How odd that the republicans are seen that way. Its mystifying. [laughter] the game has been to make us change our minds basically. Just what doug was saying. Once it was clearik as of people demand that we get environmental regulations so that even then governor reagan who had ruinist effect. I hope im not offending anybody who likes the report. Inff about 67, 78 he was saying when the movement was started seen one red seen them all. By 69 and 70 the environment became what the reporters called a motherhood issue, the idea of who is against motherhood and then governor reagan was saying, we need in allat war to stop the american depossession of a e environment. Those human beings who resemble ai and saying here is the best way to do it, they decided to try to change us. But the American People their polling was always the same, in 19997 after the proposal of the First International climate warming protocol, when they said, look, its not fair, china isnt going to have to kick in. India is not going to have to kick in. Its not global, it wont work, very catchy slogan. They pulled americans and 65 of us said we want to control our Carbon Dioxide no matter what other nations do. In 2007 after another ten years of the fight when the ipcc said just like the scientists told you in 56 and 79 happening and we are the ones responsible, across the board republicans, democrats, independents, they all wanted action to be taken on climate because everyone has to go out even if its just to get in their car so its something that units everybody. Action done by the fossil fuel people and their scientists was just to stand in the way of our opinion basically. Ugsometimes disasters, environmental disasters wake people up as we are here this afternoon. Our hearts go out to hawaii, whats happening in maui, 80 dead, largest Natural Disaster in history and you can almost feel more of these coming, you can just feel it and, in fact, the reason we have an epa in 1970 was the Santa Barbara oil spill and everyone it was colored tv like walter, news broadcast went color in 1967 for the first time so in color in your living rooms youre seeing paradise, Santa Barbara, california with tar balls and gew, bird stuck in oil and nixon first minimized it. First instinct was not that big of a deal and listened to walter, interior secretary and immediately called the white house and told nixon, dont minimize it. Its bad, plus we have only been in office 7 days, blame it on johnson. But that summer nixon was very startled that when Neil Armstrong wasas going on the mo, and the river on fire and Gaylord Nelson, senator from wisconsin who saved the islands, 22 beautiful islands in wisconsin. He did much more Gaylord Nelson and nixon started finding out this earth day and he was suspicious of it because at every College Campus there suddenly there was article day office and nixon is saying who is paying for this. Where is the money coming from and he got a new answer, who paid for that bill, earth day 1970. There was a Green Labor Alliance and ruthers view was working people may not be able to go to yosemite, they will give in flint, michigan, we need clean lakes, clean ponds, places to pick and he was talking about what we call Environmental Justice issues and in American History we take our industrial debris, our waste, our toxins, our poisons and dump them in neighborhoods of people of color and you get cancer clusters and spikes. In the 60s you start seeing birth of Environmental Justice with people like cesar chavez and Dolores Huerta protesting pesticides thatli are deforming mexicanamerican childrena working the agricultural fields, dr. King gets killed, the a. Memphis sanitation strike and people dont realize because of Nuclear Fallout dr. King said what good does it do to segregate a lunch counter. I mean, to integrate a lunch counter like greensborough, North Carolina if the drink we are has the buses were coming through the back. That is where you dont want to sit because of the air and so theres a linkage between it and john louis becomes one of the leaders of the Environmental Justice movement in the 60s but particularly in the 80s where he pushes the issue and forces bill clinton who nobly started addressing how do we do remediation and how do we do cleanups and how can we help not poison lowerincome people in the United States whether they are latino or latinas, whether they are native american, living around Uranium Mines or whether they are black americans and urban centers where their local neighborhoods are becoming the dump zones. Im a detroit native and we are still in flint, michigan through the water crisis and i lived through and watched the result of the industrial dumbing years, decades after the Automotive Industry had left, had left but the effects still remained. David, it makes me wonder when we look at the overarching history of Environmental Movements, had there been opportunities, had there been people left behind where had different parties come together we might have been able to maintain some of the momentum we saw earlier . I just i just had this lovely moment of thinking that i was sitting next to the national memory. [laughter] hearing doug j speak. [applause] but, yeah, there were huge misopportunities. One funny one which i sort of forgot when i was researching wasth in 97 there was this incredible fight to try to get the first global treaty where europe and all the americas and australia would all regulate Carbon Dioxide and it took so long to get people to that meeting at theat rio summit in 1 andk 92. And it was going to be the centerpiece for president clinton and Vice President gore. It was going to be something that gore was going to run on and president clinton after when kiato passed at the 11th hour the delegates there were, you know, sacking down on tables and right to the last minute and when it was forwarded for adoption these hardened diplomats were crying and applauding and it was coming back toop america and america tends to need to take the lead on those things because at that point we were the we were the head, and so president clint when was giving interviews to the time saying its going to take incredible amount of president ial energy and president ial focus but we can get this done and then 17 days later, 18 days later there was a story in report about an error that president clinton had been making for long amount of time with Monica Lewinsky and what could have been an and that became a very different use of president ial attention and president ial energy. So the key moments like that throughout history of this debate, this problem. In 1979, what we were talking about earlier, National Academy of sciences was asked give us your second opinion, will this happen and it was they only needed five days. They were like the jury that brings back a quick verdict and they said, this will be comforting to scientists but it also be disturbing to policymakers if Carbon Dioxide released continues this panel finds no reason to believe that Climate Changes will not occur and no reason to believe those changes will be negligible. When scientists went to brief lawmakers about this and this is how the city works and i think its also a weakness in a way that we have as people as a lawmakers asked some of the scientists when are these things going to occur and these scientists in 19179 said, you know, give or take 40 years and the policy maker said, get back to us in 39. So, yes. It also makes me wonder douglas, what are the conditions under which president s are more likely to include major environmental change in their agenda or the conditions that make them back off of that . Thats a great question because we looked at it intensely. Some of you probably remember the great naturalist eo wilson, if you havent, look him up. Brilliant, harvard, but he talked about biophilic people, people that love nature, love the Natural World, some people that need to have a cat or dog around them or wildlife around them where they are not fullically complete and he said others just dont care about that issue so you look at president s, i mean, weve had only up with Theodore Roosevelt who had said that we are going to put Natural Resource management protection of america the beautiful at the Top National Priority and thats how he got so much dump because rihe prioritized it. President s often only get one or two things that they can really be big on. He thank goodness did that and fdr elevated quite a bit. Nobody sense those two after the love of the Natural World and wanting to know everything about it quite like them and so barack obama, a president that did the Affordable Care act, once he got that done and a big thing, historic, significant, there was no gas left in the tank for climate as your book points out rahm emanuel, we are dealing with voters and not dolphins. What rahm said i think the dolphins will be okay for another year. [laughter] its just how do you prioritize most sane people would like to see the beautiful land stewardship, water stewardship but the politicization right now is frightening. What about the economy because we are so much talking about inflation, interest rates, how does that fit into a president ial agenda . Its a sad thing but we can all feel it in our own lives. One of the saws with people in the Environmental Movement that no important environmental legislation has ever been passed during bad economic times. Its just like in the same way if you have a downturn, you know, at the Kitchen Table you will get rid of netflix or you will get hulu with the ads, right. Onef of the things that we do , you know what, we can the dolphins will be okay for another year. We can make fun of the government for making that choice but thats the choice we tend to make too the and one of the snake bits about the issue isis in 1977 and 1979 when the science really did mature that was during a Terrible Energy crisis and so we chose ways to get more oil and more coal at a time when the earth was asking for less oil and especially less coal. And you know, Rachel Carson who is a big figure in my book, i dont know if you realize she worked for fish and wildlife. She wrote books about the sea. Rachel carson about the oceans. Herea home in maryland and turng it into a park and maine was her walled, nobody ever regulated them. But they were spraying, cropspraying the chemicals, for example, jimmy cart whore is on hospice right now and birthday will be october 11 and he will be 99 but everybody in his family died of pancreatic cancer, his mother lilian, his father, his sister gloria, his sister ruth, his brother billy because he left to go to the navy but in that part of county where they had peanuts and cotton they were spraying that so its a cluster built of people that died from pancreatic cancer. So Rachel Carson enters this battle because of a woman named marjorie spack, the baby doctor. This is the baby doctors sister. The Suffolk CountyMosquito Control and usda were blanket spraying all the crops. Well, she was an organic farmer so she was anti ahead of her time. I want organic produce and she sues and goes all the way to Supreme Court that my right to be an organic farmer is being taken away from me. She loses but in her loss to the Supreme CourtWilliam O Douglas writes a decent and it begins douglas starting to push, douglas would call it a wilderness bill of right that we have a godgiving right clean breathing air and clean water. In the while for the 60s it. Looked like that could happen but at last the opportunity is missed and we now live in a country that there are pockets that are poisoned and some pocket that is arent instead of being a guarantied fundamental birthright. In our earlier conversation when we were planning this panel i was surprised to hear from you, david, about polling data around where americans are right now when it comes to Global Warming, the effectiveness of disinformation and its not that people dont believe Global Warming is real but that theres another another element at play in how we are processing a moment we are in right now. Explainut that. Well, there was a great editorial. Do you read paul craigman, he seemed brilliant. You guys need me to tell you that a noblewinning economist for the time is worth reading . I should be off this panel. [laughter] but what he wrote a great thing last week and he said and we can all feel it that Climate Change has joined the culture wars so even people who know theyre like, okay, the other side cares about the climate, you know, what i hope it gets even hotter, you know, and i dont like snow anyway. In fact, one of the fascinating things about denialism is that it t was never designed to win e argument and people who became the climate deniers were trained by tobacco to learn how to attack scientific studies. Same with tobacco, they knew they would lose, if they could lose law by 10, 20 years they had 20 years to make the money. For a lot of the life of this issue you did have people who would believe the denier arguments. Thats all gone now. You can fool some of the people 16 times, 32 times but when you get to 33 or 34 and we have a summer like the last couple, they are like, i guess the scientists were right and so now the question is, you know what, i still dont want to do anything, i remember when we were on the phone, one of the ways the deniers would take preexisting ideas you have and then apply them to this issue is theres fellow who, a guy named Patrick Michaels who would complain to cnn, you dont put enough skeptics on the air and cnn got impatient and they check who had is the scientist that we have most often talking about Climate Change, it was Patrick Michaels and Patrick Michaels, when he would go out to small events in places like small towns in maine and try to get people to not action on climate, he would say forget the all the science, what they really want to do is take money that you earned and give it to people who didnt earn it. You know,nc what is incredibe about davids book and why you all have to read it, one fear i had as a historian, i was worried these climate denying bastards werent going to pay in history, his book nails them. [applause] and theres when you read his book theres no escaping a legacy of idiocy from some of these people and and i mean it, charlatanism and lying, being corporate captive. Its a bunch of bafoons and it may have ended. The denial is you cant deny it anymore. Now theres a saying, so what, what can we do, but the age of denial is, i think, over but his book keeps it so people will realize that we used to have such badfaith citizens and politicians that were willing to go that build the igloo. So what do we do about so utwhat aboutism. This is something that we run into our show when we do programs about environmental policy, people say, theres nothing i can do individually to make a difference. There has to bee policy change, thats the corporations to change their practices and i just want to pause for a moment and say if you have questions for our panel, we have about 15 minutes left so please make your way to the microphones and we will get as many questions as we can but what do we do about that . I dont want to say anything else because i can lower you in your estimation because anything i say will make me seem less smart than doug. I really respect climate scientist name katherine and is speaking to this because the question is what do we do and i thought i would read her prescription, individuals choices matter but systematic change is key, thats why the most effective thing we can do is to advocate for action where we work, study, live and invest. By you saying our voice, we can truly make change contagious because one of the do i have time for a story . Yes, you have time for a story. Do you remember the keep america fuel ad with the with the first peoples, hes walking in buckskin beside a highway and people are throwing their fast food out the window. Maybe they didnt get the right order in the drive through but people are tossing garbage at the window and it falls at this indian was the name that they used for him in the 70s and he looks down and then the camera pulls in close and one tear slides down. Thats referred to as the most famous tear ever shed. Apparently the tear of people who have done study most tear visibly said, its been seen five or six billion times that year and it made a generation, my generation it made us conscious of ther environment d conscious about things like litter. The actual thing that it was for, it was being paid for Keep America Beautiful, i see this gentleman is nodding, it was Keep America Beautiful was funded by the bench and packing industry, it was by the people who make the bottles for pepsi and the cans for coke and the cans for coors and they were anxious about recycling bills that would cost them money and the slogan of that ad which seemed thrilling to us, people start pollution, people can stop it, what it really what the corporations there, what the corporations are saying, you have to do it, we are not going to do anything and so whenever the corporations suggest that we should take independent action its a way of them dodging their financial obligation and its also a way for [applause] and the native american actor was cecilian. Hes from cecily. Well, i want to make sure we get to as many questions as possible. We will pingpong back and forth starting here. Thank you so much. An amazing conversation, you are both brilliant and im looking forward red reading your work. My quick question is Montana Youth that tried to sue and do you think the approach is worthwhile one . Can i take that one . Its a great question. Professor james hanson who i think is a great, great hero and honored to tell his story, he thinks thats one of the great ways after, after the when democrats came back into power and until President Biden they didnt make lasting change, he began to think that the only way to actually be effective on this issue was through the courts so, yes, absolutely. Next question. Hello, so you guys talked about the economy and climate being seen as separate issues for politicians like especially with obama example and the idea that like the dolphins with wait but first we need to help people with health care and have talked about how this focus on conservation and saving nature and now i feel like in a lot of climate movements theres sort of this shift to focus on peoples lives and how we are all imperiled because of this and especially with like Climate Change joined in culture wars. I guess i was wondering, do you think Going Forward there will be a shift for politicians and for getting policy done in shifting towards talking about like Economic Issues also at climateki issues and like, you know, the healthcare costs that comes with climate issues, cost of rebuking the city after naturalin disaster and do you think theres a path forward where its not liberal save the trees thing but intertwined with saeconomic equality . What a great question, really, stunning question, the best question you could have asked. Of course, in the sense that a lot of our solutions are going to come through the through innovation, finding new technologies, how i was up in rhode island with the biggest offshore wind farm and what are we doing with solar, new experiments with Hydrogen Fuel cells. Its a very robust way and we are going to have to be as environmentalists climate activistsll arguing the money imperative. We cannot keep going the rate we are going. We are going to have to be rebuilding city after city after city, burning, dislocation, global cost and so its always good to make that leap and connect it. I think thats the hope so california, for example, by just picking on that state or washington is with them right now but 20, 30 youre not going to be able to get fossil fillup in california. What does that mean . Youre not going to go and final. El it means that ford and gm are really starting to amp up how can we thats a big market california, its Something Like the sixth largest economy in the world. Ford doesnt care sell electric car, they are not wedded to the gasoline world. So i find hopeful things going on and i think the key is going to be to keep the the reminding people of the economics of of the Green Business is smart business, its the future, its American Leadership and also the only thing i will say very quickly, i tell young people dont get depressed. Pretty hard. Dont become a climate activist. We dont need moody sour people, talk about how we can save be the planet, be positive, join groups, have fun and join a small group. If you dont have the time to get into some some majoring in Environmental Science and environmental engineering, great, but others can join the group thats trying to save a local wetlands or trying to help species survive or trying to, you know, get a better air Quality Standard in their state, theres so much to do but i think if you join something and get engaged we are going to grow and so many citizens that and theyll be a moment for where i am calling the fourth wave because one thing we have done well baby boomers, we deserve to be criticized but we did get the terms ecology and Environmental Science and environmental law going. I dont know a university thats prioritizing the environment and hirings in looking at buildings, Green Building standards. We are getting there. Our Attention Span as americans we like things quickly and particularly with our iphone and instant information and we are to get out of this Industrial Revolution and move to the green its taking time. In and is you have to be for the long haul and love the earth and the planet so much and fight for it and in exciting ways, no depression, no psychological meltdowns. I know it gets horrible. I get ill watching hawaii right now, really, i do. But i dont want to start being a teacher, we are doomed, we screwed it up, the planet is disappearing, the book of revelations is true. What good is that going to do . Lets get through a couple more questions, go ahead. I dont know how brilliant this question is but im struck by your passion and im curious at what age and how did you get interested in the environment . Thank you for that. My mother and father, my dad just died a couple months ago but my mom and dad were teachers and i have the luxury of having a trailer, we had a coachman trailer and we got to visit the National Parks and state parks and go camping all around our beautiful country, so i fell in love with the badlands of north dakota and california and, you know, the d Mojave Desert and so my whole life then became kind of american preservation, conservation, its what i love. So i owe it to my mom and dad and those travels and book festival. On my book silent spring, i did in the New York Times, who would i like to go to dinner with, what writers would you most like to have dinner with and i thought hard and my first choice henry a david and i like waldon and his book cape cod in the main woods and i added Rachel Carson and Charles Darwin who was the show that good writing cannot be matched with science and exploration. David, your background, what brought you to this . I thought you were going to ask me aboutat the dinner. I want to know the dinner, i dont know. I lost relatives recently so always go the first thing i would do is be with people who passed. My father passed during covid so i would probably have dinner with him. But i would like i would like to sit down with roger and say, god,o you were exactly right. But what got me into the environment, i just couldnt believe we screwed up this way and i wanted to tell the story. I also wanted so nothing like this would happen again just what doug was saying, like we had an incredible head start and we didnt act and so that seemed like a story worth telling because there are so many great things that we do as a people and sometimes we dont we dont always pay the bill that is we dont like paying on time and so this was a great way to remind people that thats a good thing to do. We have time for one more question. Thank you both. Just one quick question, so you talk about, of course, the political battle between, you know, republicans and democrats but also theres the context of the urbanrural divide and the fact that Rural Communities do rely on Natural Resource, fossil fuel industries to keep their communities afloat and their economies going, how do you think we can have these conversations that are productive that will lead to fundamental lasting change within the environment . I would like to hear from both of you on that and we have a couple of minutes, douglas. If i go to toledo, ohio and talk to and audience of largely Trump Supporters and if i avoid using the word environment and instead sayup dont we all want lake eerie clean, yeah, dont we want to fish the mommy river again, yes, dont we all want clean air . Yes, if i start saying environment they see you as stalking horse for liberalism. They see you as the big democrat on the side and so some of it is the way we talk to each other but but the best im sorry, we are at a book festival and i keep thinking wanting to mention writers. Read wendell berry. You go back to a small town, set up all of the intellectuals in new york, in los angeles, go back to where youre from, ohio, indiana, minnesota, work in that community and build trust on Environmental Issues and show what is Sustainable Farming is like or how to restore burned out land the way they did in almanac, its hard to do what berryit suggested but its realy a beautiful to read his thinking. Hes one of my favorite writers alive. David, briefly. Sure. Thanks, jim, just because doug was talking about writers it was so well known by mid century that you guys know like the novel alita which came out in 55 but written in late 40s, when that needed a scientific expedition he sends him to the artic tora search the Climate Change. En thats how long science has been with us. The three of us had a great conversation about Environmental Justice last week so i would flip your question and look at it from the point of view if people in the cities talking to people in the country. One of the things that made me really anxious is that the divide that weve seen already and that doug wrote about it beautifully in silent per Spring Revolution. If we continue down this road of painfully heating landscapes the people in the cities will be able to go to the country essentially money will offer protection from the Climate Changes, from the immediate discomfort and that is something that will be very bad both for us as individual people and also for us as a people. Well, david, the author of