Transcripts For CSPAN3 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

Iss. Hover, while the range of iss uses is expanding the resources to support them are not. Funding for the iss Research Represents a mere 12 of the overall iss budget. Constraints on Cargo Transportation, as well as Available Power and precious crew time limit what research can be accomplished at the station. In that regard i know many of us want to understand the implications of cargo resupply operations. Crew operations and the sustainability of the station. In addition, mr. Chairman, theres critical work to be done on the iss and Human Health Research and Technology Development that needs to be carried out if were going to make progress toward the longterm goal of sending humans to mars. In january 2014, the Obama Administration proposed to extend iss operations until at least 2024. The administration has three rationales for the extension. To complete iss research that supports Long Duration Human Missions beyond lower earth orbit to garner societal benefits. Some of which we see here. And to give nasa and private partners more time to transition to commercial cargo and crew allowing nasa to focus on human exploration of deep space. Todays hearing provides the opportunity to examine those rationales in the context of the cost and risk that nasa and its International Partners will face in sustaining the iss for that length of time. We have a lot to discuss and i want to thank our witnesses for being here. With that, i yield back. Thank you, ms. Edwards. I recognize the Ranking Member of the full committee for a statement. The gentle lady from texas. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing on the International Space station. This really san important topic, and i look forward to the testimony of our panel of witnesses, and i welcome them. Its no secret ive been a long supporter of the iss. It plays a unique role in furthering research advance in human space flight and inspiring our young people. In addition to being an incredible engineering achievement, it provides a very visible demonstration of the benefits that can be derived from peaceful International Cooperation in space. Failures of commercial Cargo Transportation missions to the iss remind us that space flight is not easy. Failures will occur, and unfortunately, these failures will have impacts on the program. We need to better understand those impacts, as well as the plans for dealing with them going forward. And we need to know whether there are any Lessons Learned that need to be applied to the far more challenging commercial Crew Transportation Program. Ive said before that the iss is a perishable commodity. We need to be clear on what nasa needs to accomplish with this unique laboratory while it is still operational. While the administration has proposed to extend the iss operations until 2024, maintaining the iss involves risk and significant opportunity costs. And we need to ensure the iss is being used in a way that maximizes productivity and value to the nation. In addition, if we are to ensure the needed iss research and Technology Activities are carried out, it is clear. We are going to need to make the necessary investments. Stagnant iss research budgets do not communicate the message that we are serious about supporting the Important Research and Technology Efforts that can only be accomplished on the iss. That is the problem that congress could and should fix. Well mr. Chairman, we have a lot of issues to discuss today, and i welcome our witnesses and look forward to a productive hearing. I thank you and kwleeldyield back. If there are members who wish to submit additional Opening Statements your statements will be added to the record at this point. Id like to introduce our witnesses. Bill gerstenmeyer is the associate administrator of human exploration and Operations Mission directorate at nasa. Our second witness today is john elbon. Vice president and general manager of Space Exploration for the boeing company. Testifying third is the honorable paul martin who has served as nasas Inspector General since 2009. Our third witness miss Shelby Oakley acting director of sourcing for the government adowntownability office gao. And dr. James pavelsik an associate of kinesiology at the Pennsylvania State universality and a retired astronaut. Please limit your testimony to five minutes. Your entire written statement will be made part of the record. I now recognize mr. Gertenmeyer for five minutes to present his testimony. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of myself and the men and women that work on the International Space station. This is one of the most talented and dedicated International Teams in the world. The iss is an Amazing Research facility. There are 329 Research Investigations in progress. These span top ics from Human Research into how the human bootd performs in microgravity, basic biology and biotechnology physical science, earth and space science, Technology Development and education. Theres never been this scope of research performed on a continuous basis in space. Were also in the midst of a oneyear crew expedition. It will give details information into human adaptation into the space environment with mission durations approximately equal to the mars transit thymeime. Also the chance to see how the human genome changes when exposed to microgravity. 83 countries from around the world have used the iss for research. Private companies have used the iss. This week in boston, there was an iss users conference. This is an exciting time as many new researchers are beginning to see the advantages of spacebased research. The growth of nannasa research is exciting and shows a generic interest in using the unique properties of space to investigate Research Opportunities typically only done on the earth. Space provides a unique window into a process affected by gravity. Many mimic conditions involving the elderly. Using animal models unique insight and potential new treatments for the elderly can be developed based on space station research. Operating under frontier space is not easy. In the past nine months three independent cargo planes were lost on the way to the iss. This shows the difficulty of working and operating in space. They have different designs heritages, manufacturing, different build processes and utilize different ascent trajectories. The failure of these three systems shows the difficulty of launching and operating in space. We often think iss is only 250 miles away and the journey is easy. This is not true. Were operating them at the edge of our engineering capability and if only we provide more insight and oversight we can limit the cargo delivery. The demands expose us to the same level of risk no matter how much insight we add. But the insight can give us insight and help us understand the designs to make sure we can end up with better designs. The right level of insight can reduce and find design errors. However, too much insight can distract the teams from work og and improving design. Even after these three failures the basic iss operations were not impacted. This is a tribute to the teams that manage the is spp they are implementing the hard lessons from the columbia tragedy that, where the iss had to operate without the shuttle for several years. Management processes and logistics resupply techniques learned are proving their worth. Several of the Agency Performance goals associated with research and cargo flights will not be met. The iss program is reducing consumable margins to favor research. This will not be enough to recover the research impactss. The delay in the soyuz required the iss to operate with three cry crew for three weeks longer. The impact of the loss had real implications to students nrd researchers who lost cargo only to lose the replacement and return to flight hardware again on the spaxcex flight. The loss of the docking adapter can be adopted without affecting the program but will result in a dollar loss to iss. Issa a issa is a phenomenal resource. It can serve for private entrep nears, help nasa prepare and benefits directly people on the earth. Congressional support through at least 2024 would be a positive sign to the International Partners and future users of iss. Operating under frontier is not easy and we need not think that they are too routine or easy. They are not. The iss team has done a great job of managing a technically demanding vurmts. Theyll continue to look for ways to improve. Iss teams need to be given flexiblity to manage and others need to understand dissimilar redundancy and how it can be used to provide robustness. The benefits will take longer to realize but it will exceed the expectations of all involved. Id also like to thank the committee for their support for human space flight. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Yes, sir, thank you, mr. Gefrtenmaier. I now recognize mr. Elbon to present his testimony. Chairman babin, Ranking Member edwards and members of the subcommittee. On behalf of the boeing company thank you for the opportunity to testify to provide an update on boeings role in the International Space station. As one of your constituents, congrat oolgss congratulations on your selection to lead this committee. Boeing is proud to have supported nasa in the design, integration and assembly of iss. As nassanasas prime we continue in the iss sustainment role today. On november 2nd the world will celebrate 15 years of continuous presence in space human presence in space. With International Crews living and working aboard the iss. At a time when many decry a gap in americas Space Program as we transition from Space Shuttle to commercial transportation, we who know hiiss know we are milwaukeeing ingmaking advancements in space every day. Its been recognized as the largest scientific and engineering project in history. And the Worlds Largest endeavor in space to date. Ongoing improvements are making iss even better. The station brought together hardware and software from 16 countries and 37 states and more than 10,000 suppliers in our country. About the size of an american football field the iss is larger than a sixbedroom house and has the internal pressurized volume of a 747. Iss is an engineering marvel a beacon for International Cooperation and shining example of what can be achieved through strong leadership and unity of purpose. As nasas contractor, boeing is responsible for maintaining the station and ensuring the full availability of the unique research lab for nasa, and other countries and private laboratories. We continue to work with nasa to reduce the cost sustaining the space station. Over the past ten years weve reduced the cost by more than 30 . These savings have enabled nasa to fund the nasa docking system, the critical components supporting the increase in the number of vehicles visiting the station. These help keep iss operating at efficiency and strong into the future. With nasa we completed a Technical Assessment of the usable life of major hardware components. The station will be operable through at least 2028. Longterm viability of the station is an important factor in continuing to attract researchers who invest considerable time in preparing their experiments for operation in space. The continuing reliability of iss and improvements plead to further enhance Research Capabilities are a boon. Our work on iss enables many benefits to improve the quality of life here on earth. Iss continues to be used for developing multiple technologies to export to support deep Space Exploration. Nasa is developing highly reliable life support systems to address needs for future exploration habitation systems. The iss is a test bed for learning how the body reacts to weightlessness and allows us to develop countermeasures now. Were learning selfsustainment measures. Such as growing food and sustaining water. Research has led to numerous improvements on earth from the medical field to earth observe agss to providing clean water, to how we diagnose and streettreat patients in remote areas. Ive had an opportunity to work with countries that are not engaged in iss or do not have a Space Program. In every one of these conversations, these leadersprogram. With an all expression, they express a strong desire to be involved in space and more specifically the International Space station. They see the value to provide Stem Education to create hightech nothings and provide a significant source of national pride. The fresh perspectives from leaders outside the partnership recognize the value of on iss serves as a strong reminder of u. S. Leaders and to all with the care in global resource. We must never take what we have from iss for granded. We just continue to make it value for research. Thank you, and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. I now recognize mr. Martin for five minutes to present his testimony. Thank you for allowing us to be a part of the discussion about nasas challenges on the International Space statement. A timely top nick the light of the loss of three cargo flights over the last months. And todays hearing in the past two years including reviews that examine nasas plans to extend of ragtss until 2014 24 and the contracts to fight cargo and crew to station. We have five more reviews related to the topic under way. Including an examination of the cargo resupply failure, nasas Behavioral Risk and charges to corporation in space. Our audit last september of nasas plans to extend iss shows that they have no obstacles. However, we found nasa must address a series of technical challenges including shares power. And as well as a limited ability to transsport large parts to station. While nasa officials estimate a bunt between 3 billion or 4 billion through 2024, we anticipate the cost will be higher. Much of the increase is attribute an about to higher transport kothss. Second, most of the International Partners have yet to commitment to station the operations beyond 2020 and a decision by one or not to the to participate could drive up costs for nasa. The number one Operational Risk for the iss program is ensuring the ability to deliver supplies to astronauts. Flights are now on hold pending the outcome of accident investigations and approvals from the faa and nasa. The failed cargo flights have affected nasa in at least three ways. Number one, by reducing available crude time due to delay in the return of the crew compliment. Two, increasing costs to replace the lost research and delaying the return of experiments. The only company capable of bringing car go back to earth. Because they use its a a Research Platform to study human travel and lorn term habitation in space its important part to send humans below earths orbit. Utilization for the iss for research has limited over the years. But for example until a seventh astronaut is brought aboard nasa will not be in a position to maximize crew time. On board crew will reconfigure the iss to accommodate the commercial vehicles nasa hopes will transport astronauts. So that point, nasa gave 6. 8 billion to boeing to complete space flights for crew. But the Program Faces unstable funding, the need to provide timely requirements and guidance to contractors and coordination issues with other agencies. Given its appearance, the oig issued a follow up to review the status of the program. That concludes my prepared remarks, thank you sir. Thank you, mr. Martin. And i now recognize miss oakley for five minutes. Good morning, members of the Sub Committee. Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss geos work. As you know, the United States has spent tens of billions of dollars to own and operation the space station over the decades. The u. S. Could spend more given the potential extension of operations to 2024. Todayly discuss three areas. Nasas budget for ss. Second challenges that could affect increased use of iss and finally steps steps that nasa and cassis can address. Nasa continues to make a significant investment in iss each year. The investment is expected to increase over the next four years mainly because they will begin to found commercial fights. Transportation costs will be 54 of the budget. Unlike transportation costs, costs to operate and conduct research are expected to remain stable until 2028. The fundings are crew safety and transportation transportation. Maintaining the fascileity and research. It can affect the funding for research. Furthermore. The result of the planned extension is unknown. Nasa has challenges that could affect the use of iss for science. Including limited problem for search and increased demand for crew time facilities. Recent mishaps of cargo vehicles have had a direct impact to increase research on iss. For example, launch failures and delays have already resulted in the loss of case sponsored research and costs almost 500,000. And lets not forget your crab cakes, miss edwards. Furthermore, additional increases are likely. For cassis, absorbing the increases has continued to be challenging and limited progress raising additional funds for science from external sources. In 2015, cassis has seen an increase of commitments from external donors. Specifically in 2014 it received commitments of over 12 million. Cassis faces challenges with competition for crew time and a heavy demand for key fas tillties, which limits the type of experiences they can bring to iss. Crew time is allocated at or over 100 . To address the challenge nasa and cassis are dependant on commercial crew drivers developing the in 2017. Nasa will be able to add a crew member to iss who will devote his ore her time to research. And however, many tech kalg challenges and nasas an ability to fund the program could delay these efforts. Finally. If nasa and cassis can navigate the challenges Scientific Research can take many years. In the short term, it is especial that cassis continues to make progress with research and its goal of use of iss. We warted to april that nasa and cassis could define, report and assess such progress. For example, assigning measurable targets and goals. Nasa and cassis concurred and agreed to take action in response. In conclusion, the connotation of iss to 2024 ensuing the capabilities are used for scientific gains is critical. And it could help support nasa and cassis in a goal of developing sustained markets in earths orbit. This concludes my prepared remarks. Im happy to take my questions you may have. Thank you miss oakley. I would now like to recognize dr. Pawelczyk. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the status of Research Using the National Space station. Its the only thing of its find and its absolutely essential for nasa. You asked fur specific questions and i would like to address each. You asked about opportunities and challenges. Well the augustine commissioning has three stressors that future astronauts will face. Prolonged expo sur to solar and gal lactic radiation. And confinement in close austere quarters. All are present in the iss environment. Martian of ragtss add more stressors. A dusty, dim environment in a field that is a little more than a third of our own. Unless we improve our century centrifuge, we risk years in a gravitational field less than earths. Two challenges dominate the landscape. Limited crew time and limited access to the iss. We can reasonably anticipate the competition for time will be worse as depanth for maintenance is for review. Better coordination between the two entities is needed. You asked about critical areas of research. The life and physical sciences, the survey completed in 2011 at congresss request summer sized 65 Research Tasks and two research plans. One with a goal of rebuilding a Research Prize and the other with a goal of a Human Mission to mars. More about the goals in just a moment. You asked about priorities. Well prioritizing is not a new concept. We have worked on the problem for close to 15 years. And the key concept isnt scientific. Its program attic and its like this. Should fundamental research or translational Research Take years over the program. The answer to that question has to be provided by government. Once the priorities are sequenced, can we priorityize the research . Absolutely. The lps survey provided a detailed scheme and used eight unique criteria to do so. And cassis receives 50 allocation followed by Human Research and what resources remain devoted to. Biology, the physical sciences. You asked about the implications for extension. And criteria that congress should consider. Well, i think one of the first tests that congress should imply should be an answered with a yes or no question. Is nasa in a program through 2024 . And the answer is an unqualified yes, exclamation point. Absolutely. The transformation has been nothing short of remarkable in the life and physical sciences. Provided seven examples of that in my written testimony. But there are gaps that will be one year or longer. There are four areas i would like to see the report go further. First, the extension to 2024 wouldnt provide time to mitigate 13 human health risks. Im not prepared to except that conclusion. There are too many degrees of freedom to establish the risk criteria. They need a thorough task allal sis of future operations. Second, it didnt address power down and we may need power return for a tsk. Third, the igm emphasized the average crew time. Its a good metric but im not sure it goes far enough. I think we need to work on the efficiency and evaluate and improve the time we have. And finally, the Research Time was con trained with the crew. We need that seventh member. My recommendations priorityize the goals. Review the essential and the 7th crew member, and the responsibility is research. And finally to extend die owe logical portion of a mammalian life cycle. Given the sources, i am very optimist thak nasa can deliver of decade of research. I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to appear. Thank you. I think witnesses all the witnesses for your testimony, members are reminded that that to limit questions to five minutes. The chair recognizes himself for five minutes. This question will be the Space Mission had a new commercial crew docking mechanism, Water Filtration device and a new space suit on board. You can explain the loss of these items on the iss programs and how do you plan to mitigate the impacts . We will start with the International Docking adapter that is scheduled for the crew. It was lost. We wanted to have two units on orbit before we began the commercial crew flights. We will still be able to support that schedule. We will take the parts from a third unit that is being assembled adds assembled as a spare of backup. The next docking adapter is expected to go in several months and one docking adapter will be sufficient. I think we can accommodate that. And the cost now has to be manufacture a third unit. And we think before the japanese transfer vehicle flies in august, we should be an able to get a transfer bed through the outstanding work of the boeing company to help us expedite that work. And we have been trending down on the toxic organic compounds and we are still monitoring it carefully. Should be okay from that standpoint. The loss of the space cute we will probably reconfigure one of the space suits we planned to return. And we will do a repair and we will use it. And we have also put a contract change in place to work with the orbital science and look to carry up space cutes in the fump for us. We have mitigated all of the concerns you have. There are impacts. Thank you. I will just add to what he said. The most significant involvement with boeing is the adapter. The second is in florida. Third unit the parts are available at the supplyiers in houston and we have a plan to replace the one ha is lost. And we are working with nasa to understand the Water Filtration system issue and get the components ready to launch on the next resupply videos coming up. Thank you. Nasas aerospace, as nasa assesses life extension, it should review the extension for continued iss use and clearly articulate them that the cause and safety risk are balanced. Given that human space flight is risky, that risk needs to be weighed. What are nasas objectives for extending the operations through 2024 . Again on the Human Research front, there are many medical investin investigations that we are looking at. We need to understand those and have the risks mitigated before we are able to commit to longer endeavors in space. We have detailed investigations and the current oneyear thank you. And mr. Martin, what insight does nasa have into the mishap, in space x. Looking back at the apollo one accident and the columbia accident, do you think there is review from the program . Thank you. I understanding is under the faa, since the faa granted the license to the contractors they are leading the accident investigations. I believe with the orbital mishap, they have a second one on going. There isnt the same kind of independent accident. I think thats we are currently conducts a review and the concerns we have about the indianapolis of an accident investigation board. And the license for the faa, thats the way its intended to be. Okay thank you. And that completes my questions. I now recognize the ranking remember, miss edwards. Thank you, and thank you to the witnesses again. Mr. Martins report of september 2014 found that nasas estimate for the budget, 3 billion to 4 billion through 2024 is overly optimistic. That was reiterated in your testimony. So im just really curious, if you could talk to us about the basis of your estimates for projecting crew and Cargo Transportation costs to support iss. For example, there have been three cargo mishaps in eight months. Was that factors into your projections for cost . Because it seems that alone would begin to shoot those costs up if those accidents might happen over the course of operations over a next to 2024. So it would be helpful to know what your basis for those estimated costs are. And respond to the challenges that mr. Martin has laid out. In his september 2014 report. We have been looking and mansion Cost Management and cost control. We have consolidated some contracts into smaller contracts and also using competition to attempt to drive down the costs. We are in a black out period of a cargo resupplier isy services. We believe that competition will help us get the costs down. We are actively working and the teams have acquisition strategies. We have consolidation plans and we believe we can hold the costs down and provide evidence of what we have seen and done. Mr. Martin, since your 2014 report it will be your assessment that nasas assessment are overly optimistic. And in your analysis, would you factor in three mishaps, failures in a year in terms of looking at the cost . Im not exactly sure whether they factored any accidents in. Over the life of the program the iss has showed 8 increase annually. And from 2011 to 2013 there was a 26 cost increase. So moving forward, as we go out and nasa considering extending the life to 2024, its expected that 59 of the expenses will be for cargo and crew. We look at nasas rationale for discoveries that benefit society. And sustain commercial use of space. Just curious as to whether any of you believe what nasas top priority should be. That is a big list and its hard to figure out what should be first versus fourth. Thank you very if question. Its a great one and its extremely important for the Sub Committee to take on. The discovery of science. What are the big science questions we want to have answered. We may not recognize the utility of those for years. A piece of Research Equipment that we flow on a mission in 1998 was largely used in last years nobel prize awards. That is years. And there is translation, the idea of what do we need to do in orderer to go further . You mention the commercialization aspect. Its not our job to sequence the priorities. Its the job of government either the executive branch or the legislative branch. But i believe you have been pretty clear, you said mars is very important. But its not an either or. Its an and. Nasa will maintain. So you think you told us that mars is the answer. Weapon you look at the research that remains to be done the risks in red, most of them, half of them, are associated with the extended duration on mars, a three years duration. I dont know of an another Research Platform that is going to provide us the capability to answer the questions. The iss is our choice for that and i believe that is how it should be used. Now i want to recognize mr. Brooks. Thank you, mr. Chairman. In light of the launch failures, is nasa the production of vehicles that serve the space station. Is part of the accident investigation with the space x event that occurred, we have verdict of the commercial crew program. They are actively involved in so we are actively involved in transitions the information directly into the crew program. Thank you. And i appreciate that response. And an effort on behalf of nasa. In my experience, nasa has insight and expertise. And i would encourage nasa to show the leadership that you indicate they are showing in the management skill they are doing to assist with commercial crew. So they can be more successful than they have been most recently. This question is with respect to mr. Elbin. The loss of the vehicle two weeks ago has been described as a big loss. Part of that loss was a replacement space suit for the International Space station. What are the implyications for the program for the loss of the suit . Wenchts will probably take one of the suits on orbit and refurbish it and we will develop a capability to transport suits to be able to help with the activity. Do you have anything to add . The space suits are not in the middle of the contracts. We do however help nasa with analysis to make sure what needs to be done and we make sure that the space station continues to operate with the capabilities there. What was the cost of the lost space suit . I dont have a specific cost. We have 13 space suits available to us. This is from the shuttle program. We will not replace that suit. It will continue to be lost. We have sufficient suits that remain to operate properly for the 2024 time frame. Well the items that nasa had on the launches who is absorbing the cost of the last items. Is that the commercial crew or nasa . For the nasa items, the losses are bourn by nasa. And the cargo Loss Estimated at 110 million or so. The researchers are responsible for their hard work. They bear the loss from the research hardware that was lost. Is there going to be future effort by nasa as much as hiring prift contractors to require the prift contractors to reimburse nasa for materials lost because the contractors were unsuccessful in launching their vehicles . Our contracts today have a final milestone payment have a successful delivery to orbit. They will not receive. And we are looking at having insurance provided for the lost cargo in the future. We e havent made a decision if that is Cost Effective or not but we are taking a look at that to see if its better to have insurance or if the users bear the risk of loss. The moneys that will be withheld as payment to the private entity spacecraft providers, is that enough to offset the losses that nasa incurred . It off sets a portion but not the entire amount. So american taxpayers can rest assured that at least we will have some recoupment of the loss that the american taxpayers have suffered as a consequence of the providers fail yut to provide the represented craft. Yes. That is all, mr. Chairman. Yes, sir, thank you. And now recognize miss johnson. Sorry. Thank you. As a child growing up in Southern California in the Aerospace Industry in the 60s and early 70s, it was remarkable what we could accomplish. And when we think of the International Space its really, truly an engineering marvel. Something over time, the witnesses have noted 15 years of uninterrupted humans living in space. Remarkable. When we think about this and where we want to go we have to continue to think big as a nation. We have no not be afraid thinking and addressing the issues. Particularly as we dream about human space travel to mars. We dont know how we are going to get there. But that should not daunt us and stop us from making the investments that allow us to continue to implementally dream big. Begin that is what we have done. We have not been afraid to explore and ask those questions. And certainly, this body has a responsibility to continue to push for the next generation of discovery. That said, as we increase and move to the coordinated roll between what the public and partnership with the commercialization of space you know, the last few months have been a bit concerning. We have been fortunate that the accidents did not have human beings on there and only cargo. But as we look at the human space travel and taking humans to the stas station and beyond, it is a bit worrisome. My question, mr. Martin you touched on in light of the recent accidents and the investigation, of the accidents, could you elaborate and expand on nasas rolle on. If if the commercial ent days are invest gnchts and i think bill will go in a lot better detail. The faa gives the license and under the contract the contractor is in review. Unlike a past challenger, where nasa could convene. My sense is that nasa is a remember, an advisory member of orbitals and they arent leading that activity. And perhaps bill can go deeper on that. The nasa team is participating directly along with the ntsb space excellent board. And the way they disposition the place program, they have to agree this item is closed. So its by con senn ses. The engineering teams and actually represented by the government and the government cant say whether we accept or not the explanation. Its a fairly e effective way to have good insight in. And it contributes to the conclusions. So we have the best from the faa. Do you feel. So far its been extremely transimportant. It was the same with the ore and that is a direct evidence of where the transparency is and how its implemented. Thank you, now i would like to recognize the gentleman from florida, mr. Posey. Thank you we know that planning for the iss beand now we are less than two years out from the administrations proposed expension to 2023 does nas have and private parer in ships and and the does nasa send to plooefl. At this point, we are looking to see if we can leave the orbit to commercial companies. We are allowing them to do investigations to see if they can get a market return. And it makes sense to do that. And we believe the agencys roll is to push furth and we will move our and to make bigger moexs. At this point, we are enjoin and we will use the remaining lifetime of station to let the private sector understand the ben it ins of verge see if it helps them a fundamental respornlg sound point. That is great to hear. Most capitals are opt niced to get crew and cargo back and forth. Who role they will play once the international spags station reaches the end of its live. Again the commercial crew program. The companies have an interest beyond the nasa need. They are building the capsules and will be able to operate and the they can use this transfempl and outside of the government. So this will efficiently i law and from the sfeanl. Thats great. The Space Shuttle and x37, both examples of reusable spacecraft that lands on a renway. Has nasa ral eded off its geared towards deep spice activity. And it will make it difficult to interthe earths of the mos fear. But winged vehicles are nice and have many advantages. Thank you mr. Chairman. I field back. Thank you, and i would like to now recognize a gentleman from virginia. Mr. Meyer . Thank you. On one hand we had three unfortunate losses that we preermsly mentioned. And the commercial space skmi getting ready to go. And adding great company. And and. Compared to train and and and all the transtor nation pmgs and are we looking at the relative two or three that have come up in the right perspective compared to the last 150 years . That is an interesting question. Again, i think the positive thing is in both in all three cases, there has been no loss of life. We proverdicted the public. The launch tight. We did the right things. I think the important thing is not get so fixated on the prap. And how can we learn . And a new energy, the more we fly, there will be small problems. They have app septemberible in this case. The immediate packs from not sef stating. And the we dont understand the engineers behind the failures. Just as the Aviation Industry has suffered a lot of fail yut throughout its history the reason for success today and the safety we got in the aircraft industry is a result of Lessons Learned and the lessons to build better and safer aircraft. We need to do the same thing and take the learnings from these events internalize it and not be afraid of it. And change the way we build al new transportation system. I see it as a painful and learning process. We will learn from cargo and apply the lessons to crew. Thank you for your positive and optimistic attitude. I very much appreciate. While you have the microcell phone, the saferty Advisory Panel identified a micromealor ride. We have shielding on board our space station, and spacecraft, we cannot proverdict for all debris. We had a Product Launch that occurred last weekend. New debris shields on the vehicle. Sop we are continues to impress the prowe train for evacuation and drills of a station station. So were and we look at the risk scenario, protected with a fielding levels you can so you custfied during 200, the priorities that the physical sciences were particularly hard hit. Do you have anything for the work force . And mans mission to mars . Thank you for the question. You are absolutely right. Those functions were a very hard hit. We saw an 80 rekrimabout. And you look at the numbers, hundreds for solicitation right now. There is active hundreding that is funding and brings search up to the station. And you are seeing, the more interesting thing about it, you are seeing maybe some of the youngest scientists that have really schooled in the spirit saying this is something i would like to take an opportunity. And check out. The i ss Research Conference last week great things will happen as a result. Thank you for your enthusiasm. You can yield back. Thank you. I would like to welcome in a gentleman from oklahoma. Thank you mr. Chairman. And to you to the panelists coming in. And i appreciate your long and distinguished career at nasa. And negotiating on the mir program in the 90s and that is where i want to start today. When you think about right now given the recent accidents that we have gone through. We are seeing how important the spacecraft. Given how relationship has changed between the United States and russia and we have even heard that russians have talked about pulling out of the international spate station. What is your judgment of how this relation can go forward. S the civil space side, the relationship with the United States and the russians is very strong. We Exchange Data back and forth and we pass commends through the iss. We use their assets for transportation. We are mutually dependant and the relationship is strong despite the tensions between the two governments. The challenge of ugs space flight transcends the uptoughness of the outside world. We have been actively getting ready to go to a crew on the 23rd of this month with the russians, sharing data with us and helping us understand our needs. So the relationship is extremely strong. How confident are you they will continue to the partnership beyond 2020 . Again, i think they are working through the government approval process. I think its the end of this year when the federal Space Program is approved. There will be an extension through at least 2024 . Okay, mr. Melvin, we have heard the ig has a report indicating the operations of the iss are going to become more difficult of the ability to take replacement art pos the International Space station. Recently, boeing had a report that dealt with some of the issues. Can you share with us the boeing position . They were suggesting that beyond 2020 things get difficult. Can you share with us how you are dealing with the issues . Sure. Thanks for the question. The study that we did looked at things like the Structural Integrity and the l. S on board. The ability to sur sooif a meteorite penetration and through 2028 its feasible to the hardware that is on orbit. The other thing, about what the logistics to replace a fail of orbit computers, et cetera, and to supply the crew. And based on the logistics model that nasa laid out and the Cargo Services too, that kind of volume and up mass is sufficient to support the logistics supply. So we think through 2028 is completely doable. Thank you. Thank you for that testimony. Mr. Gerstenmier, what comes next after the iss . We could lose partners we dont when we might lose partners. We have to think about what comes next. And i would like to just follow up with that. Can nasa provide a report to congress on its plans for a road map . Or a time line for certifying and testing post iss a post iss station in leo . And i understand this question was about commercial and things like that, and that is an interest as well. But it would have to be tested and certifying and nasa would have to be involved. Is that correct . The way we need to think about this is the next private space station may not be i dont think it will be as big as the space station we have today. It could be as small as there is discussion of using the crew transpor nation modules where they can do individual investigation, and using a cargo vehicle. So i think when we think about the private sector thinking over, we dont are to they can learn what Research Really benefits them. If its in the pharmaceutical area. They can build a capability to do that. So i think the rooift sector can do that on their own. And again i think nasas roll is to move the human presence furth interthere may be a happenation for cargo. But i think nasas next focus is the ability in the vicinity of the moon. Roger that. I yield back. Thank you. And now i want to recognize the gentleman from colorado. Thanks there chairman. And thank you to the panelist. Good to see you. Some guys you are here after we had successes and some days after we had disaimportantment. But appreciate the fact that we just keep moving forward. And its not easy. These are this is a Risky Business that you all are in. And we recognize that. We dont want to have many disappointments. We want to have mostly successes. And i was i became more comfortable and understanding, the kind of oversight that goes with the contractorled investigation process. That in fact you are very involved and there has to be a sign off. And you have everybody looking over everybodys shoulder and it is a sensible way to aproemp it. And my questions are for you really on what a research is doing on the space station that will help us as we move forward to sending our astronauts to mars . And for you, so we have the researcher and the futurist if you will sitting next to the one who has to figure out how do you pay for it and what is the return . How do you see the space station advancing our way to go to mars and i would like to ask you, miss oakley what do you see in terms of the cost and the benefits from an accountants point of view. I will turn it over to you two. There are really three issues we are dealing with here. They are the biological changes that we see in the continued reduced gravity environment. Bone and must. Rebecca the are some of the largest. And we understand to the large extend we start to look at interactions of things like effects in the brain accelerated is it why you have one kelly on the space station and one kelly on the ground . It is. Its a unique experiment. Because they are genetically identical. The changes in space talk about what is the variation cause of the space environment. And the behavior issues. Right now, the iss works in concert with the ground. When we plan to go to interplanetary operations, the crew members will be working from the ground. Its a matter of distance. So how people function independent of the planet will be different how we operate on the iss today. Thank you. The bottom line is nasa does need a robust Science Program on the International Space station to be able to achieve the longer term exploration goals. However, nasa has to be able to pay for it and the congress las to be able to pay for it. And that relies on a commercial participation to be able to do some of the things that nasa has to have funding for the longer exploration goals too. And like he was referring to being able to do some of the research that is going to be required to support the human exploration flights is going to be essential and getting them to pay for it is especialsentialessential. Because going to mars is expensive. Are you up to date on the accounting on the numbers on the International Space Station Program . I havent looked specifically at the accounting asoesh yitsociated with that. Whatly say is i havent seen any costs of extending the Program Beyond 2020. And i think ha is going to be key for improving the funding and everybody getting a very good understanding what its going to take to do the extension, to do the science that is required and to do it safely. Thank you. Just one more question and to mr. Martin. You know, weve had incidents now where there have been failures. We had some schools in colorado that had experiments on both the orbital launch and most recently, the space same school. They did the twice and they lost both. So do we account for the cargo that is lost . Is there any compensation to the people or the schools or whatever . There is not. I think the two flights or space x and the orbital failures last 650,000 on the experiodmentexperiments. And the school children, and nasa, its gone. The taxpayers are paying for that. Thank you for being here today. And i yield e back. Thank you, sir. And i would like to recognize a gentleman from california mr. Knight. Thank you. Just a couple questions. As a Police Officer who does investigations on accidents we have seen a big change in our accident investigation over the last 50 years. I would expect we have seen a big change in investigations over a space problems over the last 60 years. It hasnt been easy going to space in the 1960s. It isnt easy today. You can give me an idea of how an investigation will go today and move through the process and making sure we are going through and hitting the points and making sure we are hitting and becoming safer as we move through the investigation and making sure we can go quicker. And do more of this. And kind of our under pinning, we dont jump to conclusions or assume. We do a methodical process where we gather the data and we have to make sure the time Sensitive Information is up to date. If you have a camera that is running and a time is on that. You have to make sure that the time is identical to the camera from the spacecraft. Is the timing of an event occurred on the spacecraft. The radio delay time to get down is important. The first thing is to gather the data and you are start through the methodical process. We brainstorm. There are now tools available to build it for us. They they ask questions and lay out all the potential failures that could occur and which have to occur with maybe another event and the team meticulously goes through and crosses off each one of the events as it moves forward. And here in the case of space x, because they are an integrated team that i do all the work in house. They immediately went to testing certain components. Even though they showed up on the fault, they side, why dont we dojust go ahead and build a fault rig. They are actually off in the laboratory that may contribute as a parallel activity to this is more methodical process i laid out. So we can use analysis and Software Analysis in a much faster time than we did before. And i agree. I talked to spacex several times since the incident. Virgin and Spaceship Company after spaceship 2 went down and they were, they were jumping on it quickly and they were learning things very fast. And it seems to me that the investigation process with private companies being involved, it seems like it is going a little bit faster. And that is a good thing. We want to make it safer. And i know Everyone Wants to make it as safe as they possibly can and thats the truth. Space flight still is in its infancy. And we are still learning and we will be for hundreds of years yet. And the faster we can get through some of these investigations the faster we can move and progress. Doctor, i just had one question for you because i think that there was some good conversation there that weve got an astronaut working today and weve got one on the ground. And i think that well get some good information there on what effects are on the body when we actually send people to mars on such a long prolonged space flight. Can you give us an idea of what were going to look at in the next 35 years or maybe shorter as administrator baldwin things of when we are going to go to mars and the effects on the body, not just radiation but the time and space . So, mr. Knight i apologize. I forgot my crystal ball this morning, but ill do the best i can. Youre a kinisiologist. You should know this. I have mentioned a couple of those risks that were seeing in the realm. If i had talked to you ten years ago, i would have told you that i expected to see about 50 bone loss from a human being. We thought thats essentially what gravity confers. Weve seen with some of the glemtation strategies for Counter Measures on the iss that were looking probably a lot better than that. Im not willing to say that we have bone completely mitigated at this point. But some of the loading strategies are considerably better. Weve also seen some newly emergent risks and thats always the problem. One particular with vision of astronauts. And thats been active is actively being worked on by nasa. Theres been a number of groundbased research protocols. This is a great example of how nasa quickly identified a problem, immediately engaged the Scientific Community to try to effect solution. Very good. Thank you, mr. Chair. I yield back. Yes, sir. Id like to recognize the gentleman from ohio, mr. Johnson. Well, thank you, folks. Im a big fan of Space Exploration, big buck rodgers fans, star trek, all of those kinds of things growing up with them as a kid. I say that jokingly, but i can tell you that sitting sitting in my living room floor between the summer of my ninth and tenth grade year and watching Neil Armstrong and buzz aldrin land on the most of moon captivated me as it did the rest of the world and im not ive never gotten over that. So i have tremendous respect for what you folks do and the discoveries that were making through our Space Exploration process. Mr. Gerse nn meyer one question for you to start off with. The iss has not yet been extended by congress. However, the administration has proposed to extend to 2024. How many of our International Partners have agreed to extension and what steps is nasa taking to build a coalition of our International Partners for an extension . The Canadian Space agency has agreed to extend the 2024. So we have one partner on board thats the Canadian Space agents who do a lot of our robotic activities and have a lot of the robotic equipment on board. Splosht are sproshtthey could do this possibly by the end of year or 2016. And the European Space agency, theyre, again working through their overall budget process. Theyve committed to support us on the orion capsule, as you know, the teams in ohio are working with them on the European Service module that sits underneath the orion capsule. Theyre not committed to station yet. They will do that in 2017 formally, but theyre getting all the Member States and all the member countries to approve. They see tremendous benefit. Its working through their big governmental process on the iss side. I think all partners are working on station extension until 2024 in a variant time frame. How significant are the partner the russians . Were pretty dependent upon them for getting there and back, right . Yes. Were dependant on them for crew transportation. We use them for attitude excuse me, altitude adjustments of space station. They provide the propellant that reboost station. Theyre dependent upon us for solar ray or power generation. They also use us for commands and other activities. So were kind of mutually dependent back and forth. Are you having any discussions . Im sure youve heard the testimony of the of the potential incoming new chairman of the joint chiefs who has stated that the russians are our biggest security risks, security threat. I mean, were kind of in a dichotomy with the russians here. Are you guys concerned about that . And whats your backup plan . Again i would say that first of all, from a civil space strpt, as i described earlier, we have a very strong relationship with the russians and will continue to do that. I think we need to, again, look at what happens if the russians pull out in certain key areas. If were working hard on the commercial crew program, we want to end our Solar Alliance on the Crew Transportation Program as soon as we can and funding for that is critical to get it in place so we can have a u. S. Capability to augment the russians in the december 2017 or so time frame. So i think were moving out on crew transportation. The other areas that i described where were dependent, we have work arounds and we can put systems in place to recoup that if we have to. But at the end i think its advantageous to us. If we can cooperate, there is real advantages to it. Thats the right way to go forward. These endeavors require us to be not so naive that if a problem occurs we cant continue on without a certain partner. Okay. I guess weve had some failures with the with the commercial avenue. I certainly and im sure that you are, but i hope theres a lot of discussion going on because if we continue to experience similar failures that like we had with the commercial cargo program, and the russians were to back out, our options become smaller. And fewer. Okay. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. Now id like to recognize the gentleman from california, mr. Rohrabacher rohrabacher. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I remember when the space station was first approved, only one by one vote in this committee, one vote. Im glad i voted for it. Dont disappoint me now. Does anyone here know the level of co2 that is in the atmosphere of the space station . Do you have an internal atmosphere. What what element do we put co2 in . Theres a lot of talk about co2 in the planet now. What does co2 do in the space station . I believe its weve been holding it low because of the question because of the potential hype problems. I think were running about 3 millimeters of mercury of partial pressure of co2 on board station. How does that compare to the co2 that we have in our atmosphere here . Its slightly higher than the atmosphere we have in the room here. And weve typically allowed prior to the intercranial pressure problems associated with the vision. We allowed it to go up on the order of six or so millimeters per mercury. And thats dramatically higher than the environment here. So its slightly higher co2 levels on board station than we see here. Have there been any Health Related problems of this increased levels of co2 that as though naughts breathe in during their time the space station has compared to what they would breathe in here . Were not sure, but we think it could contribute to the intercranial pressure problem. Higher elevated levels of co2, you can get headaches. You can have some other physiological problems. And, again, we try to control that as low as we can. We are a russian device that removes carbon dioxide. We have a u. S. Device that removes casho dioxide. Then we have a next generation of system that will fly of the orion capsule that is also on board station and we can use that to remove co2. Because we are exhaling co2 all the time, right . So we have to be if youre in an enclosed environment be very concerned with what the human body is exhaling. In terms of the future of space station, do we have plans to expand, put different elements on to the space station at this point . Currently on the u. S. Side we just reconfigured the permanent Multi Purpose module from one location to the other location to make room for a docking adopter that we discussed earlier to let commercial vehicles come. Thats about all were going td on the u. S. Side. Theres no major new additions coming. The russians talked about a solar platform to provide solar energy for their segment. The russians talked about another Research Module they may add. We on the u. S. Side dont have any major additions, no. The Bigelow Company has a new concept without the inflatables. Is there any use of this technology . It will be added to space station next year. This is an expandable module that will be added to the station. It will stay there for about a year, year and a half and remove it from station. Instead of a regular pressure shelf, its to understand what we can gain from the expandable technology. It has a very thick wall so it may be better for a penetration trpt. It also may be better thermally. That needs to be looked at. And the acoustic environment may be better. So the idea is to get it on orbit, take those claims, test it on orbit with space station. It might also be cheaper than the traditional way of building a space station. Which is something we should be concerned about. Let me just note two things. Orbital debris continues to be and always was an expanding concern. I believe that this is something nasa should look at not just in terms of space station but we should be thinking about International Cooperative effort to just deal with the debris problem. Thats something we need to this committee should be dealing with at least in the time ahead. And second and last of all let me just note that your report on your cooperation with russia during this time period when there are frictions going on between the United States and russia i think is demonstrates a very wonderful aspect of space. That is once you get up there, you look back down on the earth and some of those problems dont seem as important or you were able to put it in perspective. And im happy to hear that we are and the russians are putting these areas of friction in perspective to the point that we can Work Together and create a better world while were doing it. Thank you very much for demonstrating that to all of us. Thank you. We have just had votes called and i want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for all their questions. If we had had time, i would have liked to have gone through a second round. But the record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments and for written comments for members. Its our hope that the office of management and budget will wore more expeditiously with nasa to put together responses to these questions. The committee is waiting for nasas responses to questions from the commercial crew hearing from six months ago. Mr. Gersenmeyer, please send back the message that these delays are not acceptable. The witnesses are excused and this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. This weekend the cspan cities tour travels across the country with time warner cable. To learn more about the literary life and history of lexington, kentucky. Edward pritchard was a state hero who had a tumultuous political career. In the mid 1940s, if you had asked who was a bright shining star in american politics, on a national scale, someone who is going to be governor, perhaps president , a lot of people, car rin graham, ar they are slessinger would have said edward pritchard. He seemed destine for great things and then came back to kentucky and in the mid 1940s, was indicted for stuffing a ballot box, went to prison. So that incredible promise just flamed out. We also visit ashland, the former home of speaker of the house, senator and secretary of state henry clay. The mansion at ashland is a unique situation clays original home had to be torn down and rebuild. It fell into disrepair and his son found that it could be be saved. What we have is a home that is essentially a fivepart federal style home as henry clay had in detail and architectural elements etcetera, and aesthetic details by grand granddaughter granddaughter, greatgranddaughter and so on. Watch it on American History tv on cspan3. Coming up at 10 00 a. M. Eastern, fer chair janet yellen will be on capitol hill. Shell answer questions about the economy and monetary policy. Shell testify before the house finances Services Committee live on cspan3. Later in the day, president obama speaks again about the iran nuclear deal. Congress has 60 days to review the accord and to vote to accept it or reject it or do nothing. The president said he would veto any resolution of disapproval and thats also on cspan3. The Supreme Court term ended a couple of weeks ago with major decisions on health care redistricting and legalizing same sex marriage. Next Supreme Court reporters review the major cases and rulings from this Supreme Court term, giving an inside perspective on what its like to cover the Supreme Court. Good afternoon. Thank you all for coming and welcome to the 27th annual view from the press Gallery Program sponsored by the d. C. Bar section on courts, lawyers and administration of justice. Im arthur spitzer. I work at the legal director of the local office of the American Civil Liberties union, but not wearing that hat here, im wearing my hat as a former member of the Steering Committee of that section of the bar. Our thanks first to arnold and porter for graciously hosting us again this year and thanks to Marsha Tucker and the firms technical staff for making all the oral arrangements. Thanks to cspan which you can see is covering us again this year, if you have any problem with the back of your head being on cspan, you can take this opportunity to sliver off to the side. Its not being broadcast live youll be able to invest in the video on the cspan website probably sometime tomorrow. And many thanks on my former aclu colleagues, chris mohouser who is coordinating this show. Our main sponsor concentrates on matters involving Court Administration and rules between the relationship between the bench and the bar and all aspects of a lawyers relationship to the profession such as ethics, admission standards. It focuses on improving access to justice for everyone in d. C. Its one of 20 sections of the d. C. Bar. 15 others are cosponsors of todays program. Im not going to name them all. The section carrying on most of the bar is work. As you can see from the list they cover most areas of the legal practice. If youre a member of the d. C. Bar and youre not involved in a section, we encourage you to become involved. In youre an aspiring member of the d. C. Bar, we would encourage you to be involved after you graduate law school in a couple of years. If youre not yet a member of the aclu, you can sign up at www. Aclu. Org. Well be privileged to hear from a panel of journalists who have been covering the Supreme Court for a cumulative total of 112 years. Ill introduce them in order of seniority. On my right is tony morrow American Lawyer media. Hes covered the court since 1979. He joined the washington legal times in 2000 Washington Times doesnt cover the court and continued its Supreme Court correspondent after it mernled with the National Law Journal in 2009. David savage next to him on the right has been with the Los Angeles Times since 1981 and covering the court since 1986. In recent years, hes been covering the court for the chicago tribune. Hes offered the latest tradition of quarterly guides to the Supreme Court. Joan biscuip on my left is in charge for Legal Affairs with reuters news. Her most recent book is breaking in, the rise of sonia soto my or ra and the rooiz of justice published last year. Shes the author of biographies of justices Anthony Scalia and sandra day oconnor. Before joining reuters she was a reporter for the Washington Post and usa today. Shes a regular panelist on pbss Washington Week with gwen eiffle. Im going to ask her to tell us about that later. On her left is Robert Barnes who joined the Washington Post as a reporter in 1987 the. Since then, hes been Deputy National editor, National Political editor and the metropolitan editor, but he decided to return to reporting in 2005 and begin covering the Supreme Court in 2006. Bob had been planning to go to law school but changed his mind after returning to a course as an undergraduate. He says it didnt occur to him as it apparently did to others that he could do both but perhaps a better explanation was that he didnt need four years of law school to not practice law. On my far right adam lipparticular who took over the New York Times Supreme Court beat seven years ago, but he has a much longer history with the times as he first joined as a copy boy in 1984 after graduating from college. He then went back for a law degree in 1988 and in 1992 joined the times Legal Department advising the paper and representing it in deaf mission, news gathering and similar issues. A decade later he became a reporter covering legal issues. His work has appeared in the new yorker, vanity fair, Rolling Stone and other publications. This bringing, adam served a marshall with chief Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg recognizing to hear an appeal regarding the affairs of don xuixote. Finally, Kimberly Atkins emailed me this morning to say she was home sick and unable to leave the house. So well be without her this year and hope to see her again next july. This is not a panel of litigators analyzing case law. There are lots of those that you can go to. Although we will talk about some case law but our plan is to talk about the course as an institution and a collection of individuals and about covering the court as journalists. I plan to save some time at the end for questions and answers. There are two mikes set up in the audience. So if questions occur to you during the program, please joet jot them down and ill give you a heads up when its time to go to the mikes. Finally, there should be evaluation forms from the bar. There are not. But a repeat to the reminder you just got check your emails in the next couple of days and you will be getting an email from the bar asking you to fill out an evaluation form and we really appreciate it if you would. We read those evaluationes and we made changes in how we run this Program Based on comments from past years. Last term ended with hobby lobby which was a very complicated issue in multiple conditions. Samesex marriage yes. Obamacare yes. Medazalam, yes. Confederate flag license plates, no. So let me ask the panelist, am i being flip about that . Or did you find the big cases easier to report on this year than last year . David. Youre right. There are a lot of decisions and they were fairley easy to report. There was not a lot of complexity. There was not a lot of divided votes. Its very nice because in this era, adam and bob and i talk about it all the time. We have to file stories within a few minutes, particularly with the health care, gay marriage. Ive done it long enough that i can remember the time when i can read the whole opinion listen to justices read the dissent and now you have to move very quickly. Fortunately, the outcomes were clear, the holdings were very similar. There are not a lot of complications. We were all writing within ten minutes so were grateful to the court. Another thing that i thought i noticed about it this year that seemed somewhat different is how much the decisions were spread out over the month of june was, for the most part, sort of one leading decision per decision day. Jet stream passport june 1e8 was the license plates, june 22nd was the california raisins and then baek and samesex marriage and Death Penalty each on a separate day. Sometimes there have been many. Do you think that was a complete accident or do you think the court has some interest in spreading those high profile decisions around to make your job easier or better decisions . I think the court is not very interested in making life easier for us by spreading things out. I think the only exception may be that they decided not to hand down samesex marriage and Affordable Care act on the same day. Our heads would have exploded and they didnt want to see that. But apart from that, theyre quite adamant about releasing the opinions when theyre ready. I dont think they spread it out. The prior chiefs Justice William rhenquist after one day in june when we all we got like seven or eight opinions on the same day, hundreds of pages we kind of went for him in the chief and said would you please spread it out and he had well, why dont you just save some for the next day. It shows great understanding of how journalism works. I think the new chief woovsh maybe a little more sensitive to this, but maybe other people have different views. But i dont think they care that much. I thought that you tried to have a little fun at our experience when at the end of the last day there were three decisions that were big and all of which we knew we would be writing about when he finished, she said i have two retirements to announce. And i sort of felt like i was going to throw up there for a second. But it was Justice Scalias secretary and someone else. So it wasnt quite what would have really made our day horrible. But that last day was no picnic so we had three Big Decisions and they decided to take a big affirmative action case. Then in the afternoon when we thought we were done, they decided to let a bunch of abortion clinics in texas stay open. So thats five legitimate stories. But what was interesting though, was that the very biggest two cases didnt come on the very last day which typically is the pattern. In fact, i cant remember another term where the case that was most awaited didnt come at the end. Hobby loobbby it was going back to 1992 the casey ruling comes at the end. Typically the hardest, toughest case does come at the end. So there we were on the thursday of last week getting the Obama Health Care law case and then friday getting samesex marriage. Fortunately, everyone up here was ready for that. If theyre going to end on monday, maybe that will come on monday. So it goes to show we need to be ready no matter what. Sometimes a really big decision is going to come before the last day. It always feels like the grand finale at the fourth of July Fireworks and then theres a boom boom, boom, and then boom boom boom, boom. Last year, many of you reported and we talked here about how the justices had a greater proportion of unanimous decisions than they had for decades, about 65 and how dissenting opinions had fall frn 52 the year before to only 31. And we talked about whether chief Justice Roberts was making good on his promise to try to be a unifier. Then this term, just the opposite. Unanimous decisions were down to 40 . 68 dissents more than twice as many as last year. 54 decisions were up 41 . Is the chief losing his magic powers or whats going on . Bob. I think its that every term is different and thats what we thats what we learn all the time. The issues that are presented to them are what really is controlling about how they do things. We all said last year, too, that even though there were a lot of unanimous decisions, they werent really unanimous. They were unanimous in the judgment, but they were not unanimous in the reasoning. And the court was just as divided by ideology as it was this year. I think that really has to do with that whats up for them to decide every term. If the justices were to take the same types of cases each year, we would probably have a better time measuring them year to year. But i think the statistics could be misleading, like so many people have talked about theres this liberal tilt this year. Next year well be up here saying the conservative tilt again. It really does depend on what is before them and as bob mentioned, how broadly theyre going to rule. If theyre going to go super narrow, theyre going to get more unanimity and then youll find in the details and in the consents and concurrences, youll find more splits. I think theres 0. Been some talk about the liberals being more disciplined this year and falling in line with a single majority or dissent and not having a lot of concurrences. And i think thats it was notable, but i think most justices dont feel that way. Justice alito once said i asked him why he writes dissents. One is just he could have just joined the you know or why he writes concurrences which he could have joined the majority. And he said, its like somebody coming to your front door and asking you to sign a petition. Would you sign a petition that you dont really believe in . So i think they all feel like they have a responsibility to say their own piece about important cases. Do you think that goes for the samesex marriage case . I mean, there was the line in the ska lena dissent, a stinging line that even if he wanted to achieve that outcome he would hide his head in a paper bag before joining the airy formations of Justice Kennedy. I was going to ask a little about that. In Justice Kennedys majority opinion, he talks about he ex stoles the institution of marriage. He says its a unique full illment to those who find meaning in the secular realm and is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations. And yet Justice Kagan who has never been married i wonder if she thinks marriage is essential to her most profound hopes and aspirations. Justice sotomayor signed that opinion. And what i thought was the most interesting thing about that footnote was actually not the reference to putting his head in a bag, but what he said about even as the price to be paid for a fifth vote he wouldnt join such as opinion. What weve always heard from the justices is they dont trade votes and they expressed their own views. Was he lifting the curtain on the vote . No way. Kennedy was the one who wrote it and kennedy would have been the fifth as a more conservative member. As we all know, this was kennedys error of the law. Kennedy was not a reluctant fifth to sign on to with the liberal owes gay marriage. And actually, didnt we just have oh, Justice Ginsburg at the American Constitution Society addressed the vote trading horse trading idea and says it doesnt happen at least among the liberals. No. You could mention the kennedy opinion where people write separately and more money protection principals in a concurrence. But nobody did. And isnt that quite curious . That there was no conquering opinion opinions talking more about equal protection or talking about how marriage maybe isnt the only way to find personal fulfillment . Well, maybe they took the advice that Justice Ginsburg talk bes all the time that her motherinlaw gave her when she got married is that sometimes its helpful to be a little death. Deaf. And i think they may have felt that since it was a 54 decision already, you know, deaf. And i think they may have felt that since it was a 54 decision already, you know, and i think they may have felt that since it was a 54 decision already, you knowdeaf. And i think they may have felt that since it was a 54 decision already, you know, something as momentous youd like to have as many opinions as possible. So why dilute it with concurrences or half approvals so lets just keep our mouth shut and stick with the majority. There were a lot of odd lines in reading through that opinion. One that caught my attention, john roberts said in the dissent that if this institution was good enough for the cars beginans and the aztecs, who are we to change it . I thought, this sounds like a setup for stevenphen colbert or lewis black or the aztecs . I thought they were known for human sacrifice, not for family values. It turns out you can cite international law. So speaking of expressing ones own opinion Justice Thomas wrote 57 opinions this year 37 total opinions, 19 dissents, 11 concurrences. He obviously is a believer in not signing a petition he doesnt totally agree and is expressing his own views. So i wonder, do you have any theories on why hes writing so much . Is he trying to make up for never asking a question, just to show us that hes awake . And how do these separate opinions affect how you cover the cases . I dont have a great theory on any of that. I do think Justice Thomas has always been a contrarian who likes to go his own way. Its one of the strongest things you remember about him from 20 or 25 years ago. He always viewed himself proudly as i think for myself and go my own way. And the entire time hes been on the court, hes devoted a lot of effort, almost every year he writes some very long separate dissent making a completely different view of why the Voting Rights act is wrong or whatever or he writes these separate short dissents. So i think its very much in keeping with him to sort of say im going to have my own say about this and i dont see it the way the rest of them do. I thought it was interesting too, he often writes to repeat what he has said in the past, that he doesnt think something is constitution and hes not going to give up on it. Hes going to make that point again i think in hopes that others are going to eventually come to his point of view. Its kind of interesting when the Affordable Care a act that Justice Kennedy joined the majority and didnt write i dont think, that this whole act is completely unconstitutional. But im going a long with this decision. In addition to writing dissenting and conquering opinions is sometimes justices express their consent and dissent concurrently. Do those serve a purpose in your coverage of the case . Do they change your story . Do tleth more column inches from your editors . Is that something you focus on . I think theyre worth noting for sure. Thats why some of us go upstairs for the announcement of the opinions in case a dissent is read. It adds some drama. Also, you kind of get to see the demeanor of the justices. And i think the you know, the last day of the term when they announce the Death Penalty case there were two dissents read and then Justice Scalia read from his concurrence, which was a lot of which was responding to briers dissent. So we almost had a dissent from a dissent. Those are always unusual. It was so bitter and deeply felt, that it was an awkward feeling in the courtroom. Theres no way to capture that if youre not there. So i think those are important to cover. You get a picture of what the individual justices think the importance of the decision is. Because they have to condense it. You know wrb it will be a 38page written decision and then they figure out, what do we want to read from the bench . A couple of the justices including Justice Scalia will give us the written rendition for later, which is very helpful. And i think that tony is right you get to see the drama of it and you get to see the highlights. And you can see whether a justice sitting next to the one who is reading pulls back or doesnt. And one of the better moments of the announcement in the Affordable Care act came when first chief Justice John Roberts read for about 10 minutes saying the law was upheld and he did it with much more vigor and confidence this time around than he did in 2012 when he read the decision. In fact, i think we talked about it at the end of the 2000 in july of 2012 the chief was on this zigzag thing going, okay this is what i dont like about it, this is what i like about it. It was obviously very complicated the way he would have together the competing rationale to uphold the Affordable Care act in 2012. And there seemed to be a little bit of hesitancy. This time, you could see the confidence of where they were at. He obviously picked up the sixth vote from kennedy to have the majority. He basically said, look