Transcripts For CSPAN3 Michael Wolff Fire And Fury 20180119

Especially relative to the fevered pace of sales during the holiday season. But thanks to Michael Wolff, the last few weeks have seemed, well, like a second christmas for many booksellers. Given the surge in demand for michaels book, fire and fury, one frequent question ive been asked is whether there is any precedent for this sort of frenzy. Of course, weve had bestsellers before and seen people standing in long lines for them, and normally, were able to anticipate, at least roughly, how many books to order, but the velocity and volume of requests for fire and fury seemed to take everyone by surprise. Our events team did have the foresight weeks ago, before the books release, to schedule michael for an author talk, but it was at our new, smaller store at the wharf [ laughter ] which could have accommodated only about a fourth of the crowd here this evening. So, lets all give a giant round of applause to the terrific staff here at sixth i who [ applause ] they made this spacious venue available and enabled many more people to attend. And while were at it, lets also clap for henry holt company, a part of mcmillan, which faced with a legal threat not to publish, instead rushed out distribution of the book. [ cheers and applause ] because of all the attention that michael and his book has received, im going to assume everyone here already knows whats in fire and fury. While theres been controversy about the accuracy of some parts and whether they should be taken literally, a number of journalists who have covered this white house have said much in the book rings true and can be taken seriously, as further evidence calling into question Donald Trumps fitness to be president. Michael himself has a long track record in journalism, dating back to the mid1970s when he worked as a New York Times copy boy. Hes been a columnist for new york magazine, vanity fair, the Hollywood Reporter and other publications. Hes won several magazine awards and written six previous books. His edgy reporting and writing style has made him no stranger to controversy. As one the New York Times profile of him put it, hes picked up as many foes as fans during his years as a slashing columnist. We certainly appreciate him taking time to appear here this evening. In conversation with jonathan capehart, whos been a member of the Washington Post Editorial Board for a decade and is a pulitzer prizewinning writer. Jonathan also hosts the podcast cape up and contributes to msnbc. Ive watched jonathan moderate before, and he comes very prepared, so we should be in for a great discussion. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Michael Wolff and jonathan capehart. [ applause ] sir. Look what youve done. [ laughter ] this is are you this is really terrific. Thank you. Thank you all for coming. This is great. Okay, before i get to how i wanted to start this, i was curious, and i mentioned this to michael. This is washington, d. C. , a book event for a book that has set this town on fire. And i was curious, i was wondering, hmm, whos here . Were in, at least in terms of party registration, a democratic city, but in terms of power, the house, the senate and the white house are republican controlled. So, michael said, well, id be curious to find out, too. So, i dont know if anybody how Many Democrats are here . [ cheers and applause ] okay. How many republicans are here . [ applause ] oh, come on. Okay, fine. Let me put it this way, how many people involved in the political process are here . [ applause ] whoa. Okay, all right. A lot of shy people. Okay. So, michael, on saturday night live last week, in their cold open [ laughter ] the cold open was a sendup of morning joe and fred armisen played you, and the willie geist character asks this now, michael, there have been several errors pointed out in this book already. Do you take responsibility for those . Michael wolff look, you read it, right . Everyone says, yeah. Michael wolff says, and you liked it . [ laughter ] you had fun . Everyone says, yeah. Then Michael Wolff says, well, whats the problem . You got the gist, so shut up you know, even the stuff thats not true, its true. Whats your reaction to that portrayal, michael . [ laughter ] so now i have to deconstruct saturday night live. [ laughter ] thats the world were in now, michael. Its all true. It is literally all true. This book is donald trump in full. There isnt you know, i think theres been you know, i have the problem with the berman brothers, mark berman and somebody else berman who i seem to have transposed. You know, and to this i entirely cop to. My fault. But about donald trump, this book is as true as it gets. This is the man and i think its one of the reasons that this book has this remarkable thing has happened to this book, that we all thought, and even i thought this writing this, i thought, we know donald trump. Weve captured this. And it turns out, i think, that we hadnt, that the story of donald trump, this kind of emotional void, we had been sort of circling around looking into but not really being able to grasp what this thing is. And i think thats the accomplishment of this book. Now, during an interview on msnbc with katie tur, i believe she asked you, because a lot of people were saying, well, if youve got tapes, recordings of these interviews, you should release them. With her, i believe that was on a monday or a tuesday, you said no. When i interviewed you on msnbc a couple days later, you sort of backtracked and said, you know, im kind of thinking about it, but i dont know. So, now that we are a week out, a week later, where is your head in terms of the question of i mean, ive been doing this for a rather long time, and i have always had you know, i work like everybody else works. Sometimes you have tapes, sometimes you have notes, sometimes you run to the bathroom to scribble what someone has just told you. And i have never in my career been asked for tapes before. So i thought, well, thats not what we do. And what i do is not make tapes. What i do is write sentences. But maybe im wrong. Maybe in a multimedia world, this is what has to happen. And when people have asked for this, ive thought, oh, my god, now ive got get a sound engineer, now ive got to get, what, how do you do this . But maybe. Maybe. Maybe. It becomes somewhat complicated because there are a lot of i have a lot of people on tape who i have sworn on my life that i would not reveal. I mean, you go through this process in which you make a series of deals, and sometimes the deals are i will talk to you, but if someone asks me if i have talked to you, i will deny it, and you have to promise me that you will not contradict that, and thats the deal you make. So, i guess i cant i mean, unless im completely immoral, which i seem to be often accused of being. At least im not that immoral. And, but on the other hand, i got steve bannon on tape, and the bannon tapes are i mean, if you havent read the book, the bannon pieces are like, wow. All right, so, i want to get i mean, he opens his mouth and its a kind of poetry. [ laughter ] a poetry of a sort. Of a well, all poetry is of a sort. Right. This is i mean, you cannot stop listening to it. You think, he keeps going, and usually he does. He does i want to ask you this question to get into your sources and how you got them. Early in the book, you talk about this dinner party that is thrown. Roger ailes is there. Everyones waiting for steve bannon to show up. Hes hours late. But when he gets there, he is just going on and on and on and on and on. In the book, it is not clear who is throwing the dinner party, but we now know that the dinner party was thrown by you. [ laughter ] now, and i bring that up for a specific reason which ill get to later. But on the view, you were asked by Meghan Mccain whether the dinner was off the record. And you initially said, yes, the dinner was off the record, which you could hear the gasp in the audience of people who knew what that meant, and she asks, so then how is this offtherecord dinner in the book . Explain why. Well, let me explain a couple things why it isnt identified. In writing this book, i mean, i had to make that i made a very precise decision that there would be no i in the book. There was no i because i didnt want this book to be about my impressions of donald trump. I wanted it to be the impressions of the people around him. I really and nobody believes this, but i went into this project without a preconception, without an assumption about whether donald trump would be successful or would be a failure. I thought, i dont know. And i wanted to find out what donald trump is, who he is through the people who worked with him on a daily and often minutebyminute basis, so i eliminated myself from the book. So, anyway, this dinner did occur at my house. It came about because i have had a relationship with roger ailes for a long time, for almost 20 years. And roger, a man who i would not say i agreed with on probably any point on the continuum of opinions, has nevertheless been a good friend, a good source, an incredibly funny person to spend time with and someone through whom you really get a glimpse, you really get to know something about how power has worked over th this, practically speaking, a generation. So, i have known roger. When he was thrown out of fox, i was perhaps among the few people who kept speaking to him. And he was moving to palm beach in january. He was going on january 4th. I said come for dinner on the night before, roger and his wife. On the spur of the moment, i think probably that day, i shot steve bannon a note. I said, roger is coming for dinner. Hes moving to theyre moving to palm beach the next day, do you want to come . And i dont know what i expected out of that, but when i went when he responded that he would like to come, and then i had to go to my wife and say, guess whos coming to dinner. [ laughter ] but it was actually kind of a splendid evening, and it was completely off the record. Then roger died, and i thought, what does that mean in this thing . And i decided that, that it probably i decided i could use it. And i spoke to rogers wife, and it was kind of like, yeah, why . So, the confidentiality died with him. Yes. I mean, that was the decision that i made. Right or wrong, that was the decision i made. Then shortly after that actually, i got this wrong, because first it was steve bannon who said after roger had died, he said youre going to use that, arent you . He said, thats history. And i said, oh, okay, could and he said, yeah, use it and then i spoke to rogers wife. So thats how it got on the record. Okay. And so, that is one of the scenesetting moments. And so, now we understand how it is that you were able to get waved in to the white house to basically become a potted plant in the west wing lobby. So, most of your meetings at the white house were with steve bannon, or at least you were scheduled to meet with steve bannon, and then what would happen . No, i was scheduled to meet with i mean, although i have had a lot of meetings with steve, and steve was one of the pillars of this spoke, but i basically met with everybody, and everybody was under the impression that they were supposed to meet with me. Where do they get this impression from . Did that impression come from the president . Or did it, because you were talking to steve bannon, they figured, well, we should probably talk to him, too . Well, it came from i mean, i was introduced around by various people, by hope hicks, who was the, you know, i mean, the president s kind of personal pr person, you know, kellyanne conway, sean spicer. I mean, this was not a it was not a mystery here. Now, i think on one level, nobody quite knew how this came about, and everybody looked a little puzzled by things, but it was there was no friction here. There was no friction. No friction. Nobody was saying, what are you doing here . Everybody was saying, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they would see you sitting in the west wing lobby and, like, who are you waiting to see . And you would say bannon and they would chuckle and say, well, thats not going happen or that be for a while, why dont you come back and talk to me . I became a familiar presence around the white house. And i think also very much a nonthreatening presence. I mean, i was not i mean, you know, the press corps was over there, not far away, but i was always careful not to come in as a member of the press and not to act like a member. You know, the press is a sort of, you know, they want something. I didnt want anything. I literally was just i didnt even have okay, wait. Oh, come on, michael. I didnt want anything. Im just sitting in the west wing lobby hoping to talk to all these folks. This is totally true. Come on, man really . I just wanted someone to talk to me. I was like [ laughter ] and this is actually an important thing, because you go in there. It used so, it would be in, youd get i dont know, a 10 00 appointment, youd go in, and then you would sit there and you would sit there sometimes for hours, and sometimes, hours and hours. And it was kind of humiliating, actually. And you had the feeling that people took, you know, regarded me as kind of a pitiable creature, you know . Im not im not important enough for anyone to keep their appointment with me. Everybody else is there and theyre having appointments and their people come out, and im still just waiting there, and the hours are passing. And i did feel humiliated. I was really but then it became this kind of thing that people it began to work. People would stop and they would try to take care of me and say like youre one of the neediest cases. Come on yeah, come back, talk to me. And the other thing, and this is an important thing, i basically didnt ask questions. So, all reporters, what do we do . We ask questions, ask questions. I dont ask questions. I go in and i sit there and people just start to talk. Okay. So, one of the reasons why, perhaps, people start to talk, from what youre saying, and the key in that is what you said in terms of the initial part of of your answer where you said, you mentioned hope hicks, who is the president s personal pr person. Now, when you read fire and fury, you find out that everybody in this book has his or her own pr person. Jared and ivanka have their own pr person. Bannon ends up building his own pr team. Is one of the reasons why and the president i mean, its extraordinary, the president , who has a press secretary and a whole Communications Shop. A Communications Shop of 40 people, but hes conducting his own freelance operation. [ laughter ] so, maybe one of the reasons why people took pity on you as you sat there, as you say, humiliated in the west wing lobby, they knew you were talking to bannon. Is it that they realized, oh, my god, hes talking to bannon, i need to talk to him to find out what bannon has said so i can counter act that . I think that happened a little later on when they realized that bannon was kind of monopolizing me. In the beginning, it was, everybody was talking and confused about why they were talking, but they were talking. It had come on high from nobody nobody actually knew from where it came, it seemed, but there was a general feeling that you were supposed to talk to me, i think. Were people unburdening themselves . Yes. Did you feel like a therapist . Well, eventually, you did. And thats the i mean, what i saw i mean, this book is really about, if theres a plot line, the transformation that took place is people in the beginning who were, you know, donald trump, ra, ra, and you know, you got the donald trump line. And then that began to degrade, you know. They began to give you the trump line, but while they were giving it to you, they would go. And theyre going, ah. [ laughter ] and it became very clear that they wanted someone else to know that while they had to give this line, they didnt believe it. And then after moving even further on, then it fell apart entirely, and then they would tell you, this is, you know, this is really a mess here. And so, i mean, i think that happened. But then the other thing happened was the bannon thing, that steve was talking to me, so then other people had to talk to me to counter what steve was saying. And also, because nobody in the white house you know, there were these camps in the white house, and these camps didnt speak to each other. So therefore, i became, you had to in one respect, you had these camps saw an advantage in speaking to me because then they can ask me what the other people were saying, so i became a kind of messenger. This is totally high school. And that was a welcome to washington. [ laughter ] i didnt mean to interrupt. No, thats, thats oh that was it . Okay, so you there are many instances in the book where the president picks up the phone and calls around to his new york buddies or just people and just vents for a very long time, and at the end of one chapter, one section, you read all the things the president said and then at the end you said the call lasted 26 minutes. How many people does the president call like that back in new york . You know, there are probably eight people in new york he calls on a steady basis, and there may be more. Those are sort of the ones you know about. The people i know about. And you know, i think he has, you know, he has a i mean, thats his Kitchen Cabinet of basically billionaires or a few people, media people who he knows. And the interesting thing is that he calls them and then they call each other, and then whoever and then they call their friends and so on and so on . And then this all leaks out. And so, the president , you know, throws a fit about the leaks, but of course, in many instances, they come directly from him. So, if you are at the event i did with dan rather back in november you know i like to write in my books and take notes, so if you have your book with you, please turn to page 92. And there it says, on february 6th, trump made one of his seething, selfpitying and unsolicited phone calls without presumption of confidentiality to a passing new york media acquaintance. The call had no discernible point other than to express his bent out of shape feelings about the relentless contempt of the media and the disloyalty of his staff. So, of course, i immediately thought, are you the passing new york media acquaintance, michael . And i believe, as i told you in the green room, i was not going to tell you that. [ laughter ] i had to ask. I had to ask. But you know what, then that question, my reading that paragraph and that question gets to something that i wonder if people, particularly here in washington, fully appreciate, and that is the fact that you are a fixture in new york media, you are a fixture in new york society writ large, that the world that the president and ivanka trump and Jared Kushner, the world that they live in and socialize in is the same world that you are in. Because of that that sounds terrible. Well, no, i dont mean it to be terrible. Im thinking of it from a journalistic point of view, that when you read this book, there are nuggets of information that only a quintessential new yorker, only a new yorker who swims in that pool would know. The chapter on jarvanka, i believe you have it, what you write about Jared Kushner and who he is and where he comes from and why he bought the new York Observer and why that was important and how Jared Kushner and President Trump are very similar, thats not something you get from just starting to work on this book. Thats years, if not decades, of accrued knowledge and intelligence from being a reporter in new york, no . Well, yeah, total i mean, listen, this is the world the world i lived in and reported on is essentially the media world, and donald trump is in essentially a media figure. Hes not a political figure. He comes out of this world. And in fact, you know, i mean, the president has been saying that he doesnt know me. And in fact, i have known him for, i guess about 20, more than 20 years, because i was the media columnist for new york magazine. So, i was one of the people at the magazine that he would regularly call up to complain about what was written about him or more frequently when he had not been written about. And you know, and i would see him often around town, and he was the guy that at any gathering didnt like to talk to you know, liked to talk to people he recognized. And so, you know, we had a, you know, a perfectly fine, long acquaintan acquaintance, which kind of i interviewed him in june of 2016, just before the conventions, a night or so. And i was brought we met at the kimmel show in los angeles. And so, i was sort of brought in to interview him, and i think it was hope hicks said, mr. Trump, you have 45 minutes, and his face went back, his eyes went open, and he says, you dont give Michael Wolff 45 minutes and then he said, why dont you come back to the house after i do the show and well sit around, which we did for like hours and eating, as he ate these pints of ice cream. [ laughter ] well, lets talk more about President Trump and media, because i do think that we have our first we have a president who is a media creation. Youre someone who, as you just said, writes about the media. And you write on page 215, this is President Trumps, even citizen trumps view, if you couldnt get press directly for yourself, you became a leaker. There was no happenstance news in trumps view. All news was manipulated and designed, planned, and planted. All news was to some extent fake. He understood that very well because he himself had faked it so many times in his career. This was why he has so naturally come to the fake news label, ive made stuff up forever, and they always print it, he bragged. That is i mean, we have seen that totally. For 363 days . I mean, his entire media career, to be somewhat distinguished from his real estate career, but his media career was about, it was literally sort of i will say anything that gets me ink, what we used to call ink. [ laughter ] yeah. And it was it literally didnt matter. And even when you were on the phone with him as a reporter, the pretense would basically fall what do you want me to say . How do you want me to play this . This is you know, hes a hes an old, in some sense, he isnt just an oldfashioned publicist, so its not him thats his the immorality of this is a wellengrained, accepted immorality in how you get press for yourself. Thats the, you know, the tabloid business. Speaking of immorality, so, youre sitting there in the west wing lobby for hours on end, and if youve ever sat in the west wing lobby, you know that people are walking through, back and forth. Staffers are walking through, people who have meetings with senior staffers are coming in. I mean you have to its one of the ways that you, for the various wings of the west wing. You know, upstairs, the anyway, you pass its an easy passthrough. Now, you were hoping that someone would take pity on you and see you and take care of you, but sitting in that lobby, you see and hear an awful lot of things while you are waiting. Everything, actually, you know. I mean did you hear them talking about policy . Just in general, policy . And then ill hone in. Yeah, yeah, yes. And were they speaking about policy in any kind of substantive way . And what were they talking about . Yeah, yeah, i mean, its more i think the most riveting thing i heard, like oh, my god, is i heard tony blair and Jared Kushner talking about the problems of the middle east. And i heard Jared Kushner say let me get this right damn it, we can solve this problem. [ laughter ] okay. And what was the former prime ministers reaction . He was, i mean, i think he was acting like a man who was trying to cultivate a new client. Okay. Did you hear while sitting there in the west wing lobby waiting for someone to come scoop you up and bring you upstairs or around the bend, did you ever hear people talk about the american people, or particularly, the president s supporters, in ways that you found galling, shocking, appalling . No. Actually, my impression is that mostly they didnt talk about things outside of the west wing. Mostly they were talking, everybody in my experience was almost wholly focused on what was going on in the west wing. So, the bannon people were talking about the jarvanka people, the jarvanka people were talking about the bannon people. Everybody was talking about reince priebus. [ laughter ] and i mean, that was, i mean, one of the things that i mean, the Lasting Impressions is that everybody was focused on themselves. Is there anyone in the white house whose left, because i know a lot of people who youve written about are gone, who is actually qualified to perform the job for which they were hired . Or that the job theyre doing now . Well, yeah, i mean, i think sure, sure. H. R. Mcmaster i think is a, certainly, an experienced person in his job. Even, you know, mick mulvaney. You know, there are a lot of there are professional people there. But you know, one of the things i think is really worth focusing on now, which hasnt gotten enough attention, is that is that with with all of the initial team leaving, bannon, priebus, spicer, you youre left basically the two the president s two senior most advisers are hope hicks, 28 or 29, of a former junior fashion pr person and stephen miller, who everybody saw his head explode on with jake tapper. National television. I mean, and these i mean, whether you agree with them or their politics or not, these are just just two people who bring nothing to this to this to this table. They just have no experience. [ applause ] no mature to. No maturity. And no reason no reason under the sun to be doing the jobs that were paying them to do. Now a central focus of the book is steve bannon is throughout this book. Steve bannon is the smartest person in the west wing. Steve bannon is the one who is the true believer, who has an agenda, who wants to push the president to do what he thinks he should do. Steve bannon is smarter than jarvanka, smarter than priebus, smarter that spicer, smarter than everybody. Bannons gone. Are you surprised, given the way he comes off i mean, he comes off as someone who really thinks hes smarter than he really is. Are you surprised that he is no longer there . And not just no longer there, like, excommunicated. The mercers have even left him. I think that i saw steve come i do think steve is smart. And, again was he qualified to be in that job . Excuse me . Was he qualified to be in that job that he had . Well, you know, steve is 64 years old and has never worked in politics or government before so i would say in no conventional terms was he qualified for this job. Nevertheless, he had at least read a few books, so hes coming in the bar is very low here. [ laughter ] all right. Im going to ask this one last question, and i think im going to open it up to q a from the audience because ive lost track of time and im so afraid that i am going to take time away from you. So im going to say this now before i ask this last question. If you have a question, there is a mike there and a mike there. Please line up to ask your question. One. Make sure its a question. There will be no speeches. If there are speeches, i dont mean to be rude but i will be forced to cut you off and ill be rude about it. Because i want to get in as many people as possible. So, again, there is a microphone here and a microphone there. Michael, you claimed in one interview you left some quotes and some stories out. Why . I just couldnt nail it. I mean, things that i that i believed to be true but but couldnt nail it. Thats was there anything so shocking that you nailed it but because it was so shocking you kept it out . Well, yes. I mean, there are wait, what . [ laughter ] wait, what . There is there are there are several things that i i thought were shocking. I believed that i had nailed it but they were shocking enough that you need to needed a sort of a triple, quadruple nailing and i didnt have that. Animal, vegetable, mineral . Who . Which camp did it come from . What do you mean . Im trying to suss out the thing that you nailed that you left it out. Youre give me some context. You have no idea. I know. Im trying to find out. How much i have to struggle not to tell you this. Oh, god, man. Come on but but i will tell you, if you read the book and if you read between the lines, it is there. [ laughter ] so just so just a little test. Okay. Is it at the beginning, the middle or the end . Its its toward the end. I will say no more because youll get it out of me here and this will be, you know, and then well all i can keep going. I can totally shell the q a if i can squeeze this out of you. [ cheers and applause ] [ laughter ] does it involve no. Okay. So questions. Im going to let you im going to let you off the hook. For now. Okay, who was it . It just just read its there. If youre just patient and you just see just read. Its like a good reading thing. Its there. You were first in line nobody has yet spotted it. You were first in line. You get the first question. Emphasis on question. Thank you very much. Hi, michael. Thanks for the book. You achieved what all of us were thinking about, which is, boy, we wished we were a fly on the wall in that white house. You were that fly on the wall. Thanks for shave sharing. On the average, how many days a week were you able to get into the white house and procedurally, how did you get in . Procedurally, it turns out to be easy. You make an appointment. Whoever you make an appointment your first appointment with puts you into the system and you go in and then youre basically there for the day. So you had to start out, you had to make an you had to go in with an appointment. I didnt go in i didnt have run of this free run. I mean, once you you did as soon as you got in, but you actually had to make this appointment. I would spend mondays my schedule was mondays i would make my appointments for the week. And i live in new york so i would come down on either monday night or very early tuesday morning. I would check into the adams, which is right across the street from the white house, and i would go back and forth. And the nice thing, which i quickly found about the hay adams is that a lot of people at the end of the day would come over come over for a drink or dinner or whatever. Well, we all wish we were that fly, dont we . Thank you, michael. Thank you. Question here. Thank you for coming out. So prior to the campaign, i mean, its pretty clear that trump and the Clinton Family had a pretty extensive relationship. I mean, hillary had received donations from donald through her numerous campaigns and they were both president at her wedding, et cetera, et cetera. At the start of the book you mentioned a lot of the ambitions of the trump team fell apart once he won the presidency. It was clear he was trying to mount a Cable News Network and that sort of thing. Do you think clinton was knowledgeable of trumps ambitions given their relationship prior to the campaign and do you think she formed her campaign in a way to accommodate those ambitions . Im not clear on the question. Can you ask that question again but shorter . Okay. So donald and hillary had a relationship prior to the campaign. Right. Donald was clearly he clearly had other motives aside from being the president , right . Do you think hillary was knowledgeable of those motives when she was shaping her campaign . Well, i mean, i dont i mean, fundamentally, you know, the trump the trump people didnt think that they were going to win and the clinton people didnt think the trump people were going to win. Right. So in that respect, i mean, i think that the hillary people probably probably did assume that the trump people had other ambitions beside being president , which they werent going to do or theoretically they werent going to be. And as he writes in the book, all those the trump ambitions were the Trump Television network and ivanka had her own ambitions and jared had his own ambitions. Thank you for your question. Question here. Hi, michael. Thank you for doing this interview. My question was, whats a part of the book that you ultimately wish that you had cut out and why . That you wish you had cut out . Part of the book that you ended up leaving in but looking back you wish you had cut . No part. I think its i would say that i am entirely happy with the book. At this point. You know, when you write books, years from now you look back and you think but at this moment in time im feeling good. Yeah, you probably want to put that piece in that you say you left out. Dont think i forgot about that, michael. Was is tillerson . [ laughter ] question here. You need to take lessons on the pitiable creature thing, apparently. My question is about the pitiable creature aspect of sitting in the west wing lobby. So youre sitting there. Are you on your phone and working on things or just making puppy eyes at anybody who walks by you, hoping that like, are you really going going for trying to, like, catch somebodys attention while youre sitting in the west wing lobby or are you doing your own thing and eventually im try not to be not to be noticed. Youre trying not to be noticed because you think somebody is going to throw you out, like what are you doing here . And youre try not to be noticed, you know, its embarrassing. There you are, you know, the clock, you know, there are people there and the clock goes and, you know, youve an hour has passed beyond your appointment. Then they try to say, can i get you anything . Can you do this. And then there was the issue of going to the bathroom, which then that becomes, you know, can you just go to the bathroom . It turns out you can. You just go and you can wander almost anywhere. Wait a minute. Where . Im trying to think. Ive sat in that west wing lobby. Where is the bathroom you can get to unescorted. Unescorted. You go through the when you walk in the door on the left, you go through the door which actually then leads to the the roosevelt room and the oval yeah, totally. I mean, its, again, it was the thing. You know, what are they going to say . Im sitting there well, right. As you said before, you dont have a press pass, you have the blue appointment badge, which i guess gives you some other kind of, you know, access to the bathroom. Question here. Thank you. Michael, ive been wondering as somebody who is in the media yourself, who has been your favorite press secretary . Who has been my favorite . Press secretary. Your favorite press secretary. Ive really only dealt with in this white house, in this book, i only dealt with sean, so, you know so after i didnt have actually any dealings with sarah. So but did you mean press secretaries in general . You mean in this administration . The three. Of the three. Okay. So, sean spicer. Awesome. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Question here. Now Robert Mueller and his team they want to talk with bannon and definitely they will ask bannon about these things that you quoted him for in the book. You admit trump and bannon and their relationship is not very good at the moment, it seems like, but were not completely sure. What is your impression that will bannon sell trump in these when he talks with Robert Mueller . Or will he kind of confirm what he said . What is your impression what will happen from now on well, lets look at this in two ways. Thank you. I would anticipate that steve will tell the truth. You know, but i guess i guess there is the truth and then there is the truth. Does he does he does he really go after the president . Does steve bannon make the decision to try to break trump . And i think that, you know, if if i were steve right now, thats what i would be if i would be thinking, thats one of my options here. I mean, i i literally saw steve bannon go from from the guy who elected trump to the guy who thought that trump was was the idiot of the century. And a guy who, you know, who who who came to realize that whatever goals and agendas steve had, whatever he, you know, the nationalist, populist, whatever that is. And i dont mean to be dismissive. For steve, that is a very, very specific ideadriven program. And he thought that trump would be its trump would be able to lead this this this new movement. And it turned out trump really is not capable of that. Not interested in that. And is just going to go in whatever direction he goes in at any gift moment. And i think steve found that incredibly infuriating. And i think that he was using the things he said in my book as part of his intention to break with trump. So i yes, i think i think that he i dont know whats going to happen, but i think its a very real possibility that steve could sink the president. And to follow up on his question [ applause ] since he brought up Robert Mueller. Has anybody on muellers team contacted you in connection with the investigation at all, given some of the things you have in here such as bannons quote that the meeting in june in trump tower was treasonous . They have not, but ill be honest, i have been ive gotten a lot im really behind on my email. [ laughter ] question here. Thank you. Thank you. You mentioned you have tapes of the discussions with mr. Bannon and the house intelligence committee. They have subpoenaed him eagerly. But the question is, have you considered if you receive a subpoena for those tapes if you would provide them and have you considered whether if you do you would release them publicly at the same time . I have i mean, the answer is i havent considered. Have not considered have not considered what i would do if my tapes were subpoenaed. Subpoenaed. And, you know, and that that brings up this other problem and the whole idea of the tapes and releasing tapes because if my tapes were ever subpoenaed, i would not release them. So and i think that thats my, you know, thats just thats part of what we do as as journalists. I cant think of anything more fundamental that about how you protect your work. So just another aspect of this tape question, which is seems to me ultimately unclear. Question here. Do you believe that the pee tape is real . Wait, i didnt hear the question either. Say that again. Do you believe that the pee tape is real . Do you believe that the pee tape is real . I would have no way of knowing. My gut is i dont believe it, but thats just and im sorry. Oh, my god. Did did anyone i mean, i cant even just imagining it. [ laughter ] michael . Yes. In any of your conversations with any of the people in the west wing, did anyone ever bring it up . The pee tape, i mean. Yes. But in somewhat of an in elliptical ways and there was a lot of a lot of you know, can you a lot of can you imagine this . No, no, thats not possible. And i have actually [ laughter ] i have had the disconcerting experience of actually having discussed this with the president of the United States. Okay now. Now were talking. Were putting some extra time on the clock here. Michael, what did the president of the United States say . Did he bring it up on his own . He bruought it up on his own okay. I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed. I didnt want to talk about about, you know, golden showers with the president. You didnt have to talk. He wanted to talk. I probably i probably should have. I just didnt. I felt so awkward about this. What did he say . He said that he was a germaphobe and he didnt believe he couldnt believe that people were accusing him of this. And did i think it was true . You know me, he said. Can you see me doing that . I just didnt know what to say. I was like, oh, okay that was just one of a litany of things in this phone call, or did he call you specifically to say, you dont think that this is true . Im a germaphobe. Like, did you get the sense that the president was trying to convince you that he couldnt possibly do this . I think that the president just talks off his head. I dont think hes trying to convince anybody of anything. I dont think he has a strategy in what hes saying. He has no intention or intent. I think it just it just comes out. And i dont think it really matters who hes talking to. And he certainly doesnt listen to who hes talking to so what does it matter . Its a very disconcerting experience to speak to donald trump, to say the very least. So this particular peepee tape conversation. When did that happen . I will not i would prefer not to say. Did that happen did that happen when did it happen as republican nominee . Did it happen as president elect . Did it happen as president of the United States . Although, no, you said its disconcerting to have a conversation like this with the president of the United States. He was the president of the United States. So thats within the last 363 days. Yes. Its your turn. Hi. How do we get donald trump out of office . Patience. I mean, i think hell get himself out of office. Its this is just an unfolding process. From the beginning of this trump thing, you know, weve all seen this as a train wreck and its just the walls seem to recede, but the wall is still there. You say hell get himself himself out of office. Does that mean you dont buy the prayers for impeachment, you dont buy the really big prayers for invocation of the 25th amendment, you think that he will figure out a trumpian way to resign or leave the presidency a winner . I think the bannon formula is very reasonable. A 33 1 3 chance he will be impeached and resign in the shadow of the 25th amendment. A 33. 3 chance he will limp until the end but a 0 chance he will have another term or even run again. Question here. Sort of in the same vein, i was going to ask you when and how will this end . And you can talk we can talk about impeachment, but there is also others who could be involved in i know you dont have a crystal ball but where do you see our country going . No, i think ill fall back on that. I think literally the bannon formula is the most reasonable way to look at this. I mean, we dont know how this is going to end but we can i think have some confidence, really something near absolute confidence that it will end. Question here. Hi, michael. Thanks for the discussion. Two questions. First, can you kind of go into more of the beginning of your and bannons relationship . How did that come about. Second, have you received an influx in hate mail or have you talked to the president . Im have you received an influx of hate mail or spoken to the president since the release of this book. An influx of hate mail. An influx of hate mail . And have you spoken to the president since the book came out . I have not. And i really havent gotten hate mail. But, again, as i say, im really behind check your emails. On the email. The first question was can you talk about elaborate more on the beginning of your and bannons relationship. You mentioned a dinner. Your relationship with bannon. How did that come about . Um, okay. In, um, february or march of 2016, i was walking through the the, um, early airport because i was going to give some speeches. When youre on the speaking circuit, you are always having to go to orlando. Why, i dont know. [ laughter ] anyway, im walking through and im not paying much much attention but somebody there is a guy i see this guy who clearly seems to recognize me and looks at me, and in fact, he drops his bags and he comes over to me. He kind of almost he embraces me, i think, you know, and he said, oh, youve been doing great work. You know, im you take a fan in any way you get them. And i say thank you. Thank you. This and that. But hes acting like i like i know like we know each other. And also that. At my age this happens also and you think, okay, just but then that was it. Thats all i knew. Then about a month later i saw an article about breitbart. And there was a picture of this guy, and i thought, oh, my god, the guy who hugged me in orlando is the breitbart guy. And i still wrestle with this. Have i ever known steve bannon . How could this i dont know. But, and i didnt think anything beyond that except then it comes around it comes august and suddenly steve bannon is appointed the head of the trump campaign. And i thought, okay, if he thinks im his friend, ill be his friend. And i write him an email. And he says, come on any time. And which i promptly do. I mean, this is not far from my house. I go over there. I go up to trump tower. We sit down and its a it seems like were friends. I mean, i missed the whole chapter here, but and we have a and thats the thing, so hes there maybe this is the second week hes there. Then he says were going to win, you know, he outlines were going to win. Our path is through is through florida, ohio, michigan and pennsylvania. And this seems so much just like, you know, silliness that i dont even write this. And theni i feel kind of, you know, maybe i exchanged another couple of emails with him. But then they win and i respond again. I say, can i come up . He says yes. So i think a week or so after the election, maybe two weeks, i go up there, we sit down, we have a conversation and, um, and i say, can i write this . And he says no. And then i said, you know, somebodys going to write this. You know, you are about to be one of the most famous people in the country. And he said, okay, write. [ laughter ] so i did. And that was actually the first the first think that was the first on the record interview that steve gave. It may have actually been the the only one he gave until until just before he left the white house. And so we i just continued this relationship. Our deep friendship. Where i dont know where it came from before we move to this next question here thank you. Do you feel badly that the book is what helped push bannon out . I feel i feel that steve knew what he was doing. I feel badly that hes seemed has clearly had a some place where he did not expect to be. I feel sure, however, that he has a plan to get where he wants to be. The three people in that line are the final three people. Short questions. Yes. So youve known him, as you say, for over two decades or close to two decades . The president , yes. Hes changed from being a democrat to an independent to a very rightwing republican. Does the man have any true ideology or is it just spur of the moment and what gets him bingo. [ laughter ] thats what fire and fury is all about. Can i ask just one quick question . No. We are just one. Im sorry, maam. We are so over time and i want to give the bearded man behind you a chance to ask his question. Thank you. I read that there was some serious discussion of developing your book into a television series. Im curious to know as much about that as you can share, but specifically im curious about what kind of tone you envision for that, whether it be a dark comedy or a dark drama. Because i think your book can be read either way. You know, i ive had enough involvement to with hollywood to know that that whatever the writer of the wants is totally irrelevant. If i if i could, i would say you play it totally straight. I mean, you dont have to do anything here. [ laughter ] just it can it carries itself. Thanks. I cant wait to tune in. Hey, its you again. Can i have another question . Really, a short, short question. If donald trump gets impeached then it will be mike pence. Will he be better for the u. S. Than donald trump . I cant answer that. I have no idea. I mean, i think anything would be better, but yes, so i mean that falls into the category of be careful what you wish for. So, michael, last i last question. President trump tweeted, not recently but when the book came out, Michael Wolff is a total loser who made up stories in order to sell this really boring and untruthful book. He used sloppy steve bannon, who cried when he got fired and begged to his job. Now sloppy steve has been dumped like a dog by almost everyone. Too bad. [ laughter ] if the president were here right now or called you, what would you say to him . The thing about talking to donald trump is that you never get to say anything to him. But i predict that actually what he will say sooner rather than later is that he is responsible for this book. Its successful because of him and and he is the real writer of this book. And on that note, Michael Wolff. [ cheers and applause ] thank you both so much. If you could all please remain seated while our guests exit, that would be much appreciated. Thank you so much. Good timing. Great timing. This program of author Michael Wolff talking about his new book fire and fury inside the Trump White House will reair this saturday, 11 00 p. M. , and on sunday at 7 45 p. M. On cspan 2s book tv. Up next, a House Homeland Security subcommittee hearing on efforts to combat transnational gangs like ms13. And then the Supreme Court oral argument over when police can search a vehicle suspected of being involved in a crime. And after that, well show you some of this years state of the state speeches, beginning with colorado. And now the House Homeland Security committee on counterterrorism and intelligence hearing on combatting transnational gangs. Witnesses include federal Law Enforcement officers and state department officials. This is about an hour. Good morning. The committee on Homeland Security subcommittee on counterterrorism and intelligence will come to order. The subcomme