Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence Image - Jacqueline Kennedy 20240712

I think it is good in a world where theres quite enough to divide people that we should cherish the language and the emotion that unite us all. Jacqueline kennedys 1,000 day as first lady were defined by images, political spouse, young mother, fashion icon, advocate for the arts. As television came of age, it was ultimately the tragic images of president kennedys assassination and funeral that cemented Jacqueline Kennedy in the public consciousness. Good evening, and welcome to cspan series influence and image. Tonight well tell you the story of the wife of the 35th president of the United States Jacqueline Bouvier kennedy. We will tell you more about her life story. President ial historian and author of many books on the presidency and has a special focus on the cold war era and the Kennedy Administration. Barbara kennedy is a political scientist and wrote part of the jack Jacqueline Kennedy biography. I want to get into more details about the white house years about the assassination and the imagery of the assassination since anyone alive at that age has the images seared in their minds and subsequently because of the power of the internet and the video that we were talking about thats a collective consciousness. People have experienced this since it happened. She was just 34 years old, is that correct . Just 34 years old, and from the moment of dallas, i think we know so much about this story we sometimes forget he was shot and into her arms and for five minutes they were going to the hospital and he there was with sightless eyes and she felt almost from the moment that they left the hospital to go back to washington that her Great Mission was to do something to make sure that he had the historical reputation he deserved but not be there to fight for. Where did a 34yearold woman have the sense and the experience. What did she draw from to put this funeral with so many iconic funerals together in such a short time. She said jokingly, my ambition in life is to be the art director of the 20th century and oddly enough she almost turned out to be that at least with the Kennedy Administration and she felt that one thing that would be very important for his legacy would be, as horrible as dallas was, to sort of wipe out the view of that and restore the American Peoples dignity by having three or four days of ceremony that she hoped would be what they remembered with the tawdriness of what happened in texas. Barbara perry, unfortunately, as ive gone through the first and its the first one in the television age. As a political scientist, you talk about the power of television to affect the public view. How did it work out in this lace . For the funeral she wanted to go to the first assassinated president and that was indeed what she did. She asked her brotherinlaw and the president s various friends and aides to come to her aid and to find books on the lincoln funeral and all of this played out on television. I like to point out that when eisenhower was first elected in 1962, and probably 90 to 95 had televisions and like michael i can remember sitting in our familys living room on that night in november 1963 and seeing mrs. Kennedy walk out of air force one behind her and seeing her bloodstained suit. Please, jackie, let me get someone to help me change your clothes. She said no, i want people to understand what theyve done to jack. To tell you with video clips, audio clips and your conversation, the story of Jacqueline Kennedy. Whats made this series so interesting, really is the questions that you ask and wed like to encourage you to take part once again tonight. There are two ways you can do it. You can tweet us at first ladies and theres a conversation under way with a number of questions and you can call us, 2023023881. And well goat yoet to your cal just a bit. Well ask you to explain about johnsons phone conversations and why we have them before we listen. What did he do in the white house . He taped his telephone conversations as eisenhower and roosevelt had a little bit and miss kennedy had a little bit more, but johnson about 650 hours over five years, and tape people in most cases without their knowledge which would include Jacqueline Kennedy whom at that point she had a very Good Relationship more or less with lbj, but i think she would not have been too thrilled that he was having this call taped. This is a phone conversation with ten days after the death of her husband. You have some things to learn and one of them is to give me strength. Dont send me anything. You just come over and put your arm around me and thats all you do. When you havent got anything else to do, lets take a walk and lets walk around the backyard and let me tell you how much you mean to all of us and how we can carry on if you give us a little strength. You know what i want to say to you about that letter . I know how rare a letter is in the president s handwriting. Do you know that ive got more in your handwriting than i do in jacks now . And for you to write it at this time and then to send me that thing today of, you know, your tape announcement and everything. I want you to just know this that i told my mama a long time ago, when everyone gave up after my election in 48, my mother, my wife and my sisters and you women have a lot of kiecourage t we men dont have and youve got something to do. You have the president relying on you and this isnt the first time, so there arent many women running around with a good many president s and youve got the biggest president. She ran around with two president s. Okay. Any time. Thank you for calling, mr. President. Goodbye. Do come by. I will. Did this relationship between lbj and president kennedy was not always the easiest of relationships, but after his assassination, how did he treat the departing first family and Jackie Kennedy in particular . Very well and mrs. Kennedy often talked about how grateful she was to the new president johnson and it sometimes caught in her throat to say president johnson to him. Understandably. And unlike the president s mother when she called after the assassination by air force one by president johnson and slips easily into calling him mr. President and it stuck in the throat of mrs. Kennedy, but she was very, very grateful to both mrs. Johnson and president johnson and let her stay in the white house until december 6th. So she was both able to stay there with her children until she got a sense of where she was going to go. She had no home to go to and in those seconds of carnage in dallas, mrs. Kennedy lost her husband, her home and her job and she had nowhere to go until he opened her home in georgetown. Caroline was going to Nursery School in kindergarten there, and she was very grateful to the president for that. You have listened to a lot of Jacqueline Kennedy on the tapes project which will tell people more. But she sounds so in control of herself in what we heard ten days after the assassination and going through the whole funeral. Help us understand her and her psyche issues . There was strength there, but i think you would find this often with someone when has lost a spouse or someone very close to them. She said just during the days of the funeral and the ceremony she said to one of her associates, just keep on moving right now. We can all collapse later and really until she left the white house there were enough decisions that she had to make where to live and even early decisions about the president ial library and trying to make sure that her children were as in a normal an environment as possible and unbelievably, you cant think of anything thats more abnormal than the children lose their father this way, and once they got to georgetown, i think thats where she really did almost collapse and that was late december through the beginning of the spring. She went through a terrible depression, quite understandably, but before then, you couldnt ask for more than she did in terms of keeping this whole situation together. So in the days before the trip to dallas. What was the popularity of the kennedy admen station and mrs. Kennedy. The president had suffered in the gallop polls because of civil rights. About 20 points. He had fallen particularly in the Southern States and he was concerned and of course, he was going to texas to cement the party there and raise money for the 64 campaign and it was the kickoff for the 64 president ial reelection campaign. Mrs. Kennedy did not take regular polls about the first lady at that time. It was amazing. It is, but early on in 61 she was polling 61 and starting in 1948 they had started their most admired woman poll and so in 62 shes finally subplanted Eleanor Roosevelt who had been the most admired and number one for 12 years and then mrs. Kennedy was for about five or six more years after that. I would say she was riding high, and remember, they had lost their baby patrick in august of 63, and i think people felt particularly kindly towards her. You have a point . During when john kennedy was planning his campaign in 1960 he once made an offhand remark during this campaign well have to run jackie through subliminally. What he meant by that was that jackie you thought was raised in an elite way and rode horses and would have a Life Experience that might not be too politically helpful and there was no one who was more astounded and absolutely delighted that shed turned into this vast political asset so that when jfk was planning this trip to texas John Connolly and the others in texas said you have to bring mrs. Kennedy because shes so popular, youll have much bigger crowds as indeed he did. John kennedy, much wealthier than she. So why would the public not react to his wealth in ways that he was concerned. I think that he felt as Many Political leaders who come from affluence do, he managed to give the impression of a regular guy and had been in the navy and did not, for instance, she once bought him in 1957 as a Birthday Gift and a jaguar and how innocent she was, and i think he traded it in for a buick, but he felt she was not someone who had had much political experience and for instance, pat nixon in 1960 might be a difficult comparison and turned out to be just the opposite . She thought how she felt that she was a drag on him in the early days. She said im sorry im such a dud for you. Very quickly, that proved not to be the case. Before the 1960 campaign. I would like to understand the creation of the imagery of camelot. How did that come about . A week after the assassination, a journalist was often writing for life magazine and interviewed her and it would get into life magazine. She said late at night before jack and i went to sleep in the white house, we had this little vitrola and we would play the record of camelot and needless to say, editors at life and teddy white saw this was going to be the big theme and actually she urged him to make camelot the major theme of this art beingel and when it came out the presidency and camelot it came out. In the end she may not have been doing the press dnsy it may not have been something that helped because to say that those years with their lights and darks were all nights and great, noble deeds were almost setting him up for the Revisionist Movement as indeed did happen. She also must have known that these would come along and she could get out in front of them, perhaps with the wonderful, shining moment as the lyric said. One, brief, shining moment and there was a dark side of camelot, but it certainly was brief and all you have to do is look at the imagery to see they were a shining couple with two begeiling, shining children. We will spend time on the 1960 campaign that brought the kennedys to the white house and well be visiting the jfk library and well do that throughout the program tonight to learn about her role and helping her husband during the campaign. Mrs. Kennedy speaks at great length about president kennedys lover of reading and history and his belief in the power of words and thats a belief they both shared and what i like about this story here is it shows and its an example in the belief in the power of words and its a great example of the clab rag collaboration between husband and wife and late 1959. In those early days, mrs. Kennedy did travel with him on the campaign trail as much as possible. This is a reading copy of a speech he presented in Washington State in june of 1959. Mrs. Kennedy was with him at that dinner and president kennedy obviously had speech writers, but he would often rewrite and edit his speeches up until the moment he was about to deliver it. In this particular dinner as he was waiting to speak he wanted to close his speech with a poem from ulysses and he asked mrs. Kennedy, hes written a note here. Give me the last lines from ulysses, come, my 14s. So that he could close his speech with those words. We have a facebook viewer who writes in clips from the 1960 campaign. You rarely see mrs. Kennedy. She was campaigning on the National Ticket for vp did mrs. Kennedy feel she couldnt bear losing another baby. She had lost a babe toe miskafrj in 1955 and she lost a baby, a little girl in 1956. She was ready to go and i think what this person is referring to is from april onward in 1960 she did tend to stay at home. She did go with the future president. The to be to a jostling parade in october, 1960, through the canyons of manhattan with lots of ticker tape, but she was great with child. The child would be of course, john jr. Jfk had this great sense of humor, his friend ben bradley also had a wife who was great with child. Right after the election was won, jfk said to the two women, all right, girls. You can take the pillows out. Weve won. So, what role really did she play and at what point you talked about the vetting, concerns. He had a political asset on his hands . Probably the moment that began to happen is when they went to paris in the spring of 1961 and there were a lot of people who turned out both to see john kennedy and also to see jackie, who had been a student in paris, was known to be. Had french ancestry, spoke french and certainly knew french art and history. That was the first time she began to get enormous crowds. And domestically, what did this and well talk about it later on, the program in 1962 when she did the tour of the white house that she worked to hard to restore. It wasnt the campaigning but after he was in he began to realize he could help with his sustaining popularity. Indeed. Well take a few calls. Ida in west palm beach, florida. Youre on the air. Welcome. Thank you so much, susan. Im really enjoying this series very, very much. My question is i was only 5 years old when the president was assassinated. So, i dont really remember it. But ive read so many books about the president and mrs. Kennedy. Im very great admirer of hers. And obviously one of the biggest images was the day of the assassination, her pinkstained suit. I would like to know after she removed it, because i know she did not want to remove it before they returned to washington as she said she wanted the world to see what had happened to him, what did become of that suit . Was it destroyed . Or has it been preserved somewhere . If so where and will it ever be shown to the public . I thank you again very much. As i understand it, once she removed it it was stored, i believe, in her mothers attic in georgetown. And if people are familiar with the book by william manchester, death of a president theyll see the last paragraph of that book talks about when he saw after some years went by the packaged dress. He could see the stains. He said if one didnt know the story of that pink chanel suit the person who wore this had met a terrible end. It goes on to say the last line of the book he might even wonder who had been to blame, which given which would say the mystery of the assassination. But as we understand its with the archives now. The pill box hat i understand is still missing, but its with the archives and caroline made sure it will not appear to the public before i think its 2103. I dont think any of us will see that dress and probably just as well. Unless there are changes in medical science. Mary is in logan, utah. Mayor rirks youre on. Good morning. Yes. This program has been amazing and wonderful and one of the best things on television. And thank you for that. My question is Jacqueline Kennedy was such a style icon and known for that, but in reading her book by her private secretary mary gallagher, this was an issue with the president at the cost of her wardrobe. As much as was spent on her clothing, was she known as a frugal individual otherwise during the white house years . And thank you so much. Not by her husband, i think, if he were here to say that truthfully. But as far as, you know, the way that she dressed, she spent an awful lot on clothing. And that was i think by the best information we have that was actually supported by joseph kennedy, who said dress as you need to and send me the bills because they felt that this is something that would be very important to that presidency. And in those days it turned out to be a great asset. It did become a bit of an issue in the 60 campaign. There were some statements in the press that she must have spent perhaps 30,000 a year on her wardrobe. Turns out she spent a lot more and put out a statement saying i couldnt spend 30,000 even if i wore sable underwear, which she did not wear. Pat nixon and republican cloth coat, sure. So the contrast was drawn for the public and it was a close election. Indeed. She wore a cloth coat to the inauguration instead of a fur. Next, im going to have a clip of Jacqueline Kennedy in her own words a project you know so very well. I want to show the audience the book that came out of this. You annotated and introduced and worked with Caroline Kennedy on. When Jackie Kennedy right in the wake of the assassination she was reading all sorts of stories about her husband wouldnt amount to very much because there had only been two years and ten months. She was so determined to help him win this reputation that she felt he deserved. One of the things that was urged on her by arthur, the white house aide and historian, was theres a new movement called oral history, which is barbara is working on deeply at the university of virginia, and that is when there are historical events that may not be recorded in letters, we go and interview a great figure in history and somehow try to fill in the gap. So, she was interviewed at her house in georgetown i think about eight times. It was about eight, ten hours in the end. Only a few months after the assassination when her memories were very fresh. And the idea would be that she would speak freely. He told her speak to the historian of the 21st century and these were closed until 2011 when caroline felt they should be published and were. Has any other first lady done a similar oral history . She was certainly the first, Jacqueline Kennedy was. Lady bird johnson which next week. And theres a wonderful book, transcript book by Oxford University press so it contains all her oral history interviews as well. Here is a sampling from one, this is critique actually, her view of Lyndon Johnson and the role he played as Vice President. But, i know jack had to do it because have lyndon as his running mate because he had men with this enormous ego would be enraged and blocking jack in every way. Jack would say you could never get an opinion out of Lyndon National security meeting. He asked to go to luxembourg. Its pathetic all you can do with a president who is dieing to give you a lot to do take a trip to luxembourg, lyndon as Vice President just didnt do anything. I want to read something from barbaras book before we get to michael. You write in this arthur says i realize that underneath a vail of lovery inconsequence she concealed tremendous awareness. And john equally struck by this trait. Jackie had a shrewd view of people and who the real people were and who the phonies were. Clear distinction between those who were bright and those who were stupid. So, were hearing her the tapes are actually filled with her assessments of people. She was pretty definite. Did john f. Kennedy use this to his advantage as a Political Partnership . I think so. I think that was her political contribution in addition to what weve just said about the imagery and mastery of television and that sort of thing because i think well talk about the fact that she didnt have a major impact on policy and that by her own admission nor did she want one. Nor did she want one and he didnt talk to her very much. He might on occasion mention something. He didnt seek her out for advice. So i think its the case that if he was going to have any connection with her at all in terms of politics it would be as they went off on these trips or more likely when they were coming back from political trips and she did go to 46 of the then 48 states with him in 1959 and 60 when they were out with the rank and file. Im sure she was on the plane with him coming back saying that person is a phony. That one is real. That one is stupid. That one is really smart. Make sure you keep up with that one. And if you go through these tapes, as i have, you know, you hear the people that she criticizes like adlay stevenson or the secretary of state, these were people who the ended not do too good in the Kennedy Administration. So, i think he really did listen to her. One thing to remember, though, and that is how different these times were in those days. The moment that the kennedys went to texas on the 21st of november, 50 years ago, 1963, since the inauguration, Jackie Kennedy had not west of virginia. She had small children. She didnt campaign. She thought that would be something to do in an Election Year and thats why going to texas meant so much. Jack,ly do anything to help you, especially because it made the close election 1964. So, what else do you learn about her savvy in listening to all these hours of tapes . That this is someone you remember what you were mentioning what arthur was said, this is someone who gave the impression of someone who was not involved in politics, for instance, before the election 1960 or actually the conventions of 1960 she was asked by reporter where do you think the Democratic Convention should be held . Acapulco, she said. When is the inauguration . She said these things and she probably was not completely on top of it. But it shows you how different the role of a potential first lady was in those days because if she had given the image that shes sitting here giving jack all this advice on who in the entourage is not going to serve him well and who is. That would have been something that would not have helped her very much. Plus, in terms of society in those days, a woman like this sadly, who seemed to be too professional and too hard edged, which is the way it would have been seen in 1960 would also not been a political asset. Katherine graham, the late publisher of the Washington Post, the kennedy men and many men including her husband phil graham were chauvinist. They werent interested in what women had to say of substance. Very much of their time. Right. When did the tapes come out versus when you work on the biography. The tapes came out to thanks to michael and Caroline Kennedy 2011 and my book was published in 2004. So when you heard her in her own words, did it square with the view you had developed in your biography or did you learn must things . I did. I thought they did. And so at first i thought, oh, dear, i wish i had these to write the book. Then i realize it would have added color and substance to be sure and most of all added michaels superb editing of the oral history and annotation. But i found it followed the examples we gave talking about mrs. Kennedy as soon as i listened to the oral history once you get behind the scenes you see she knows all this. Its supported. It also made me think about in terms of camelot image, how she wanted to shake that image of her husband after his death and part of it may have been that to denigrate others around him sometimes raised him up. I think there may have been a part of that as well. Also just humanly. When she was dissing lbj, its one of the ways you have to be skeptical of oral history, that was the spring of 1964, during the presidency, her relationship with lbj was quite good. Johnson later said she was the only person in the whole entourage aside from the president who treated him nicely. And she made a great effort to do that. But by the spring of 1964, she was very close to robert kennedy. They were talking all the time. By then he had already was on the outs with lbj and essentially talking to her about lbjs shortcomings. So you have to really listen to that with that in mind. Well, were talking about first person historical documents. Shelden cooper on twitter asked some of the previous first ladies burn letters from their husbands. Did jackie do that . Or did john write to her very much . I think says in the december 2, 1963 phone call with lbj, you hear emotion in her voice, i now have more handwritten letters from you, mr. President , Lyndon Johnson, than i did from jack. I dont think then jfk in general did not write long, emotive letters to anyone. Right. He wrote a lot as a youngster to his parents and siblings but was not a romantic i think it would be safe to say towards his wife. We dont know she burned any letters, but her letters currently are not available yet at the Kennedy Library. Rachel is in portland, oregon. Hi, rachel. Hi. Thank you so much for this program. And i was wondering how did Jacqueline Kennedy influence art and fashion in the United States . And rachel, may i ask how old you are watching our program tonight . Im 12. 12 years old. Great question. And how much did you ne about Jacqueline Kennedy before you started watching tonight . Ive been studying a lot about her recently. Why is that . I like studying history very much. And i really enjoyed studying about her. So i decided to study about her after finding a book at the library. Thank you very much. Great to have you participating in the program. Thanks for making the effort to call in. So were going to talk about her influence next so let me answer her question by showing a video and we can talk more about it. Terrific. I might say hooray for rachel. That was a great question. At her age, 12, i was writing john f. Kennedy the person i most admire. Go rachel. Youll end up with a ph. D. In history or political science. Its a great life. Well return to the kennedy president ial library. And look a bit at how they help interpret jacqulynn kennedy as a style icon. Of course, mrs. Kennedy is known as a style icon, admiration of her fashion sense. And the first ensemble she wore as first lady, of course, was on inauguration day, this grayge colored wool coat and dress. I think its sort of a wonderful example of her simple elegance that became very, very popular. And the only thing she wore to adorn the ensemble was really beautiful ruby broach by tiffany that jfk actually gave her to celebrate the birth of john jr. And she wore that during the inaugural luncheon right after the swearing in. And of course, most famously finishing the ensemble was this pill box hat by halston, which she wore that day. Not she wore it on the back of her head so that her face could be seen. And that actually set a fashion trend, where as the hat would normally be worn on the very top of the head, she had it pushed back to sort of frame her face. Displayed here in its storage box is perhaps one of mrs. Kennedys bestknown dresses. The dress she wore during her televised tour of the white house in february of 1962. Visitors to our museum when we have this dress on exhibit are quite surprised to realize that its red because, of course, the program was filmed in black and white and broadcast in black and white, but i like to surmise that she chose red for that program knowing that it would be televised on valentines day, 1962. Lets go into the museum and look at other examples of Jacqueline Kennedys clothing we have on display. Mrs. Kennedy put an awful lot of thought into her wardrobe when she was representing the country both at the white house and while traveling abroad. She would think about what colors would mean something to the country im about to visit. So for her visit to canada in may of 1961, actually the first state visit the kennedys made as president and first lady, she chose this red suited by pierre karden as a gesture of respect for the red of the canadian maple leaf and knowing that she would be greeted by the Royal Canadian mounted police who very famously wear red. In this case here we display a pistachio green coat and hat worn by the first lady for her arrival in bogota, colombia, in december of 1961. The president and first lady traveled throughout south america on that visit, were greeted by hundreds of thousands of people and overwhelming response. Particularly when mrs. Kennedy would address the crowds in spanish. I really admire the thought that mrs. Kennedy put in to her wardrobe. She would think about the event she was attending or the country she was visiting, was there a style or particular color that she could wear that would mean something to her hosts. And she also knew the advantage of choosing a color or a style that would make her stand out in a crowd. So, what should we know about this other than the fact that the woman loved clothes and looked great in them. This is a question for both of you, how did she approach her use of fashion to influence women in the country or advance the position of the United States abroad . She felt that this was that for the first lady to dress in sort of the best of american fashion. And try to bring the best of american art and culture to the white house, would show the rest of the world and she said this during the televised tour in february of 1962, essentially suggest that the United States was no longer this young, adolescent unformed stripling country but a country this would not have been her language, worthy of being considered as a super power. Thats where i say she goes from being a closed horse to a cold warrior. Indeed. She understood this was part of diplomacy. Helped to draw in what we then called third world countries. We were the new world. What better representation of this new world, 31, 32, 33yearold young, fresh woman with these youthful fashions. And to go to paris looking the equal of people in paris the way they would dress. When in paris she did wear gee van chee. However, last week she herself set trends across the country, people were imitating her. It was just a couple of years before that people were putting meme bangs in her hair. It was fascinating to hear you could buy an artificial bang in the drugstore. Right. Buy them on ebay probably. We were talking beforehand about the ike dress, ike sun dress. There was just an upping of the level of the style and i think that goes to casini. She picked him because he was american, though he had european ties and hollywood ties, but he said i will create a wardrobe for you on the world stage. And indeed he did. She wrote to him saying i want jack and myself to dress as if jack were president of france. And in a way that happened. Its not something she ever would have said in public. And how did the American Public respond to this . By and large they loved it. Every now and again she was a little too youthful show up in a bathing suit or be water skiing. You would have some conservatives who would say, oh, no, a first lady shouldnt do that. If you do think of the previous three first ladies of Eleanor Roosevelt and truman and eisenhower. They were not water skiing in ba keynies. They were in their 60s when they left office and they had grandchildren in some instances. So she seemed like everyones older sister or cousin rather than their maiden aunt or grandmother. Lets take a call from judy in news port news, virginia. Hello. Love this series. Were really enjoying it. Thank you so much. It seems to me that ive heard mrs. Kennedys name pronounced sometimes as jacqueline. Am i recollecting that correctly or is that not true . Thank you very much. She preferred to be called jacqueline. She knew that was a losing battle. She was usually called jackie which she hated, but that was a really losing battle. And she says in her oral history both jack and i thought that the combination of jack and jackie was quite unfortunate. Anthony is watching in chicago. Hi, anthony. Hi. How are you guys doing today . Great. Thank you. Whats your question, please . My question was that we were going through this in my High School Class as we speak. As you all know, there was a fi film. We were looking at it in class, which is graphic and i was horrified, of course. But i was wondering when he got shot, the fatal last shot, when Jacqueline Kennedy trying to jump out of the car in that video, or was it just trying to protect herself . Thanks. Youre in high school. What year in high school . Im a junior. Thank you for your call, anthony. The answer is we dont know why. She was asked about it. She said that ive seen the pictures of myself climbing on the car, but i just dont remember that. She was too deeply in shock. If you taught a High School Class, would you show this film . I would not. I have to say like the explosion of the challenger, i to this day have not watched the fatal shot. Its too painful. I cant do it. I wouldnt show it to students. But its widely available on the internet. Im sure they can see it. And is it helpful maybe to talk about it in a classroom where they have a guided discussion of what they have seen . Perhaps. But that would be a line that i would have to draw. I would have to say to them, as i mentioned earlier, that i remember that day so well as a 7yearold being taken off to church from Catholic School to pray the rosary for the president who had been wounded and told at the end of the day he had died and we would say our last prayer of the day for him. So it just simply too painful. I have to step back from my objective professor scholarly side and be a human. Jennifer sherman asks on twitter, michael, what would jackie think about the jfk 50 documentaries all over television this month. Would she be happy the story is still being told . She refers to that quote, i want them to see what they did. I think what she would say and theres always a hazard in talking about an historical figure what they might or might not have thought, but she was so worried at the end of the 1963 that jack would be forgotten. She would say over and other again to her friends and others, please, dont let them forget jack. And i think at the very at least she certainly wouldnt approve of everything thats being shown. But at least it is a sign that he has not been forgotten, far from it. And the camelot label has remained. She would have to be pleased with that. In some quarters. Our young caller talked about her influence on the arts. Our next video from the Kennedy Library is a trip she took to india and pakistan in early 1962 along with her sister. Lets watch that and well talk more about her International Travel and her influence on the arts. As i said, im profoundly impressed by the reverence which you in pakistan have for your art and for your culture and for the use which you make of it now. My own country men, too, have a pride in their traditions. So i think as i stand in these gardens built long before my country was born thats one more thing that binds us together which always will. The interesting thing on this, we were just talking about so much of the images of the Kennedy Administration are black and white and here we are in color. How did that happen . This was a presidency and a president who actually was very conscious of the value of color photography. One of the last tapes we have of him from november of 1963 hes talking about plans for the 1964 Democratic Convention. He says, i want to have a Motion Picture about the administration in color because that has so much impact. And so, one lucky thing for us is that there would have been United States information agency, cinematographers accompanying her on a trip like this, so we have a color film which was very rare for the time. How Many International trips did she take during the administration . Approximately. Well, let see, this of course was by herself with her sister but not with the president. So it would be viewed as unusual trip. Then official we can start with the canadian trip. That was first trip out of the country in march of 61 and paris and vienna of june of 61. Several trips south of the border, they went to puerto rico, to colombia, venezuela and costa rica. And then lets see where else had they gone . She felt it was not her duty outside of campaigns to travel domestically in the country. She tended to travel by herself for family for vacations. This was official trip. She knew how important it was for her to go, for instance, with him to vienna. How important was were these trips to advancing the Foreign Policy in the administration . Well, i think that for jfk and jackie to get receptions like the kind they did in paris, for instance, in 1961, or when they went to vienna and got a reception in the streets that was ten times that that greeted the leader of the soviet union, that was a time when the United States was trying to make the point were the rising power that you third world countries should align with us, not the soviet union and it helped. Next up is dennis in brooklyn. Hi, dennis. Youre on the air. Welcome. Thank you, susan. Thank you for this program. I just wanted to ask we already mentioned that mrs. Kennedy had a huge influence on the art, style and culture. Im curious ever since i saw how she finished that ulysses quote earlier in the evening during the 60 campaign, she was incredibly well read. Was it her education or was it her upbringing that was what fueled her intelligence . It was both. She talked about in an out biographical essay that she had done for the competition in 1951 she talked about her upbringing and she said she was a tomboy. She liked to go horse back riding but she also liked to be by herself and sit in a room and read roger kipling. She just loved to read books especially with a european cast to them. So she was a reader, an avid reader, much like her husband. But she tended to read literature. He tended to read history. And then she continued this throughout and then she also had a superb background in education both for her prep school years as well as going two years to vasser and junior year abroad in paris and finish up at George Washington university. So one of really a relatively handful of first ladies up to that time with a bachelors agree, an undergraduate degree. As we talk about art, sometimes is forgotten her influence on Historic Preservation. Now days when there was a beautiful and Historic Building there had be a better good reason to take it down or else you do not do it. Just 50 years ago that was not the case. Thats when the term urban renewal was used. That something new was usually better than something old. If john kennedy in particular Jackie Kennedy as first lady had not been the president first lady in the 1960s, the executive Office Building next to the white house would have been torn down. Dwight eisenhower was very eager to do, thought it was an ie sore. Half of Lafayette Square the president s park north of the white house was torn down. Including Dolly Madisons home. There was the lighthouse lit up and the beautiful Lafayette Square around it. Would have been replaced by federal Office Buildings of the time that would look roughly like a federal penitentiary and a prison yard. That shows what a difference it made that she was there and it really helped the Historic Preservation movement to accelerate. You quote in your book, tish bald ridge. Who was she . Her social secretary. And schoolmate from mrs. Porters school in connecticut. They had been in prep school together. You write many years laters where kennedy designed her mission as first lady along the following lines. Do you remember the mission . Ill let you read it. Preservation of her family, entertaining with style and grace in the number one house in the world, the makeover of the white house itself as a focus of American History and accomplishment, and the raising of the cultural stature of this country. Isnt that amazing that she wrote that before going into the white house . That she already had this sense, that firm sense, first of all family and Children First as anyone would hope that would be the case but that she already had what we would call today a Mission Statement before she began her first ladyship. Well, on her family, our next clip is from nbc sandra. And interview that he did for his network about raising children in the white house. Lets watch. It is rather hard with children. Theres so little privacy. I dont mind for myself, but i think its very hard with them. For instance, i wanted to take my daughter to the circus last week. I decided i just shouldnt because i would ruin it for her. I work so hard to make her little Ballet School a private thing that we could do together. And there were all the photographers waiting when we got there. So its a little hard. Do you think that caroline, for example, older than john jr. , has she been changed much by the attention shes gotten . No. Because shes still too little. But some day shes going to have to go to school and if shes in the papers all the time that will affect her little classmates. And theyll treat her differently. Thats what im so anxious. We always treat her the same, but its how other people treat her because they read about her. Both of you have written about the school that they created in the white house. Will you tell us a story of how it was created, what the goal was and how the public received it . Well, you heard a little bit about exactly her motive right there which was she was worried about caroline when her father became president would have been 3 years old, going into an existing school, having people fawn over her then. She thought it might be more normal for her if she created a school in the white house solarium, the room at the top of the white house. They hired teachers and had other kids around the same age who were mostly the children of other members of the administration. And that school went through the length of the kennedy presidency. And at the time of the assassinati assassination, november of 1963, one of the things that lbj did do which was gracious which was to say the school can go on at least until the end of the semester. There was a controversy because all the children were white. There was. Although there is a photograph of them, in fact n michaels ho oral history of mrs. Kennedy shows the class portrait of caroline and her schoolmates and theres one africanamerican boy, son of andrew hatcher, assistant press secretary. They were receiving. He said to his father, the president addressed me by name. How do you think he knew it was you, he must have been told i was the one with the blue pants. As opposed to the africanamerican child. This is at the height of concern over integration and people were writing into the white house and saying are there any in those days they would probably say negro children or black children in the class. At first they had to say no and they had to say for sure this was a private school, this is not a Public School which would have been subject to the Supreme Courts brown v board edict. Sure. We still have some major events, accomplishments of the Kennedy Administration. We have done this for each program not to ignore the president ial history as we learn about the first ladies. First on this list, the creation of the peace corpse, the advancement of the space program. The bay of pigs and the cuban missile crisis. The introduction of civil rights legislation which john kennedy sent to congress. Sending military advisers, increasing military advisers in vietn vietnam. Want to comment on any of those in particular and how it framed our view of the historical relevance of theed a m ed a mia . How much did he engage with the controversial issues of his time . Domestically the Biggest Issue was civil rights. Took john kennedy two and a half years but after the two and a half years he sent the first big civil rights bill to congress saying public accommodations should be integrated. He did that. It took a lot of courage. Domestically the cold war, the cuban missile crisis argue round or flat. Some elements of what he did led to the cuban missile crisis but the moment that it happened i want john kennedy as my president because he managed it in a way that did not result in the deaths of up to 40 million americans which could have happened. Those are things i think relevant today as they would have been at the time. Comments . The bay of pigs which usually the term fiasco is associated with the utter failure to remove castro yet because president kennedy went out, gave the press conference, im the responsible officer of the government, i am the responsible one, his opinion ratings, Approval Ratings went up to 83 . Right. Also when the cuban missiles, the soviet missiles went into cuba and the joint chiefs were saying invade and bomb. You wont be taking much of a risk, he knew by then to be skeptical of the joint chiefs in a way that he was not at the time. And refashioned his entire administrative procedure for making these kinds of decisions. Fire to achieve. Hi, andrew. Youre on. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you, michael, thanks janet. I was wondering how what was Jackie Kennedys astro logical sign and how did it shape her view . I was in some cases surprised by the number of first ladies and some cases president s who were. She was born on july 28th, 1929. So perhaps our caller could tell us. I think thats leo, is it not . Hes off the line. Well, i think it is leo. My wife was born on the same day, so i got a little leg up. Where is the woman who came to see me in richmond who plotted out the astro logical signs of the entire Kennedy Family . Listening to Jackie Kennedy in these videos and the audio clips we had, regina knows, did jackie speak with the same care and pauses in normal conversations as what we have been showing on tv . No, she didnt. And i think she never expressed herself on this. Some people who knew her commented on the fact that in public she spoke in a way that was very careful, sometimes they felt it was a little bit stilted. Their explanation, i think its probably right, she had in her mind the way a first lady should look, the way a first lady should act and also the way a first lady should sound which was different from the way she sounded off duty in the evenings. Uhhuh. But her mother and sister also has the same yes. In fact, this is has a label called Locust Valley lockjaw for the oyster bay area. But this is what tish bald ridge said to me, oh, they all spoke that way and she called it Locust Valley lockjaw. Part is just exactly what michael said. The other is the whispery part of it. Supposedly her dad had said thats a way to attract men. And i always point out to the photographs of mrs. Kennedy locked in conversation with important men with powerful men, with foreign dignitaries. Oftentimes shes really close to them with a strapless gown and bare shoulder tucked up under their arm. I have the sense that shes using that whispery breathy voice and George Plimpton said she just enveloped even as a teenager she would speak to a man, a young man, and just envelope you and just felt you were brought into her orbit. Clearly it worked. And also when she wrote letters, for instance, she wrote some of the best letters and just romantic and sometimes almost over doing it. Saying wonderful someone was or the evening i spent at dinner with you was one of the best evenings of my life when actually it may not have been. To the point that many people were so charmed by these that they thought they were actually much closer to her than they actually were. Next is craig in omaha. Hi, craig. Hi, how are you doing tonight . Great. Thank you for your call. Whats on your mind . Well, my mind is barbara, i love your book for starters. Thank you. My question is i own a 1962 kennedy board game. And my question is how did mrs. Kennedy feel about her image being put out like that . Kennedy board game. Oh, kennedy board game. I have a view. But you were asked the question. I was given a deck of cards by a student of mine that had all of the Kennedy Family on the faces of the cards. I doubt that she would have been very pleased with that, but she had to know that these things were happening. And she also had approved for caroline a paper doll collection that would have shown caroline as a paper doll dressed up like first ladies that didnt go to the bookstores. I any she did that under huge duress who knew that would sell politically. She barely tolerated things like this. She thought it was undignified. She hated when it involved their children. She listened to the famous record the first family, the von meter i imitating jfk in skits and she was outraged there would be an actress playing caroline. Were in the height of the men aerora, political campaigns came from madison avenue. She had to recognize the political value in all of this. She did. But she did it kicking and screaming. For instance, many of the pictures that we most treasure of jfk and those children, you may notice that theres no jackie and the reason for that is that they were taken when jackie was oftentimes out of the country and not in a position to object when jack said to his press secretary, all right, coast is clear. Get the photographers in. You have given me a nice segue. Next on my list i want to talk to both of you about the relationship between the press and the Kennedy Administration. In general and then specifically how Jacqueline Kennedy interfaced with the press at all. Lets start with when you look back at those times theres so much written about the friendliness of the press corp. The relationship between the Washington Post owners and editors and the Kennedy Administration. Looking through historical lens, how does that look to you now . Well, much more gentile in almost every respect about private lives. I mean, kennedy, like most president s, had a thin skin and thought that the press was literally just at his throat all the time and much too critical compared to now days, it looks extremely different. Her attitude toward this was at the beginning of the administration her press aide said to her, your policy should be with the press to give out minimum information with maximum politeness, which pretty much summarized it. Were showing a picture right now of jacqueline with ben bradley and his arm around her. You look at how close that relationship seems and you wonder where that she actually i might say this picture you may notice the original picture showed a little bit more of her leg and before giving this to the bradleys she actually took its hard to see but a black ink pen and inked it in so her dress was longer and more first lady like. The other thing to say about this picture, this was upstairs in the white house and looks very different from the way it might have during the eisenhowers. And the bradleys were neighbors. We should point out, of course, he went on to be, of course, the editor of the Washington Post and people know him from watergate and all the president s men. Hes getting a President Shall medal of freedom. He was also the editor of news week. Bureau chief. Yeah. And he had been the neighbor of the kennedys along with his wife. So they were good friends and they continued that friendship as you can see and some of those beautiful videos that were taken in those last weeks out at the Northern Virginia home right before the assassination are the with the bradleys and they were brought in the afternoon of the assassination to be with the children and then they went out to be with jackie. They were very close. Served the public well. Oh, im sure not in the sense that ben bradley was not going to be highly critical of the president on occasion or two he was and upset the president. And the president did not talk to him for about six months. Like wise, mrs. Kennedy also dropped him from her friendship after he wrote conversations with kennedy. She thought it was an invasion of privacy. They were certainly thin skinned. Robert from play know, texas. Hi, how are you doing . Im interested in the relationship. I heard she is deceased and i just want youll to kind of expand on their relationship. What was it like . Theyre not great sources on that. I think as historians we have to stick to things we actually can talk about with certainty. And in this case i dont know if you want to come in on this. I would just say that i think its pretty obvious that they had a fight over the onasis will and that mrs. Kennedy at that time, mrs. Onasis did fight to get more money from the family and that she was successful in doing that. So i think there was no love loss between the two of them. One hour left in our twohour look at Jacqueline Kennedys life and her accomplishments and approach to the role of first lady. When we talk about how the press interfaced and how they might have been gentler, two issues that were very much a part of Jack Kennedys biography to talk about. First of all, his health. There are many things we know now about the severity of the back pain and addisons disease and the like. Why did not know more about it at the time. Because he would not have been elected. There were rumors he suffered from addisons disease, which he did. We should say rumors. Rumoreds spread by Lyndon Johnson and others. And others, yeah. There was an effort by his entourage to protect and say he didnt suffer from addisons disease or the classic kind. That was done. Recent years we have gotten access to his medical records shows he suffered from all sorts of things, many medications. And you can look at this one way or another. You can say isnt this terrible. This was a terrible coverup. We should have known. Probably we should have. At the same time, if youre trying to evaluate what the man was made of to go through all that, his brother once said jack kennedy went through at least half of his days on this earth in intense physical pain. Probably true. And that is a test of someone i think who had great will. And frankly had the last rights of the church said over him three or four times prior to dallas, 1963. Yeah. I would like to have you tell a story that you tell in your book about early in their marriage when he has experimental surgery on his back and she as a young wife tends to him. Would you tell that story. Yes. Its so difficult for them in the first few year. His back gets worse. We think its first from a football injury in college and then slammed against the bulkhead of pt 109 in the midst of the world war ii. So between that and then taking cortisone for a bad stomach, robert believes in consulting with doctors that that caused a dee tearuation of the lumbar. So in the early part of their marriage in 54, he has this experimental fusion attempt to be made of the lumbar region and they place a metal plate in his spine. And it just first of all, he suffers a terrible, terrible infection that almost kills him. And then with reduced immune response. From his addisons disease. Yep. Then it wont heal. The wound wont heal. Here is Jackie Kennedy she is with him palm beach and she is having to dress this gaping wound. Then he goes back under the knife a few months later and they have a slightly they remove the plate and have a slightly more Successful Surgery but he suffers periodic bouts of severe back pain for the rest of his life. Also led her to be very skeptical of doctors, one of the most poignant things that in Parkland Hospital in dallas when he was there and the doctors were working on him after the shooting, the doctors and the nurses said you cant come in here. And she said, im going to be there when he dies. And the reason was because when she went through this in 1954 she remembered how the doctors had said you cant be near him even though she heard him calling for her. Ted is in ft. Lauderdale, florida. Hi, ted. Youre on. Hi. Thank you. Cute story. Jackie when she lived in manhattan i believe lived in an Apartment Building on fifth avenue. And right next door in one of the Apartment Buildings was greta garble. And jackie was a great greta garble fan. Jackie would watch and i dont want to use the word stalk, but she would follow greta going into a store. She would follow her into a store. Never speaking to her but just looking at her and saying, oh, theres greta ga board of arbitrati arbitration. Well, she actually knew greta garbo. Oh, she did. Thats what i wanted to hear. She came to the white house for dinner and jfks schoolmate actually had known greta in europe and spent time with her. So jfk played a practical joke on his schoolmate which is he said lamb is going to fawn all over greta. Ms. Garbo pretend you never let lamb in your life. He begins to talk to greta. And greta says, ive never met this man before in my life. Those prep school pranksters. Indeed. You mentioned robert and its a quote from his book unfinished life i want to use to introduce the other topic of the relationship with the press. And that is John Kennedys womanizing. Here is one thing that he wrote, kennedy had affairs with several women including pamela turnure, jackies press secretary, mary pinchot meyer, two white house secretaries playfully dubbed fiddle and fadle. Judith Campbell Exner and tall, beautiful, slender white house intern. How much did the press know about this and not report . Well, ben bradley, whom i talked with at great length insists he did not know, did not know about his own sisterinlaw being involved with jfk. So i think in retrospect theres a feeling that this was either better known or better documented than it may have been at the time. In your biography you talk about the fact that his reputation as a womanizer was known when he was a senator in washington. She was well aware of this reputation as they were dating. What do we know about mrs. Kennedys knowledge of how much it continued after the marriage . And if so, how she felt about it . Well, bless her heart, this is one thing she kept her counsel on most of the time. We know that she awfully hard to establish. So she didnt write a memoir. She didnt go on opera and tell all. Or even tell some. So we think that she may a couple of times let out in anger perhaps in french both instances where she made a reference to someone who might be having an affair with her husband in private. One can only speculate about what that was like in the marriage and what tension it must have brought to the marriage, especially the early marriage when he was having all of these medical problems and she was you would have to assume. And she was having trouble with her pregnancies as well. A question for both of you, when you look back knowing now what we know about the tensions in their marriage and the challenges they face, what was the relationship like . How strong a marriage did this seem with your documentary evidence . I think it was a real relationship. And probably perhaps happiest at the very end. She certainly says our happiest years were in the white house. I think that was true. And also theres a lot of evidence to suggest that after they lost a son, patrick in august of 1963, they became a lot closer. For instance, you see them Holding Hands at an airport on the last day of his life in a way you had not seen before. She would say that in the h oral history, wouldnt she . She would say my husband didnt really like to kiss babies or kiss me or hold my hand or he didnt kiss me after the inauguration. And yet that lovely photograph you showed of her touching very gently his cheek and she says in the oral history, i just wanted to say, oh, jack, what a day. And i think that speaks volumes. And then as they came out of the hospital after poor patrick had passed away after two days, he is holding her hand as they come out in front of photographers. When they take the helicopter back and they come down the steps, hes helping her because shes gone through this cesarean section and its just a week later. Hes helping her down the steps and gingerly comes down himself. And i had not seen that before and ben bradley says on their 10th anniversary that september of 63, he thought he saw them closer than ever and when they came together at new port for their anniversary, he said he had never seen her greet him so warmly. And i think that is for all of the reasons that she was distraught and devastated by what happened on the 22nd of november, it was that much worse because if you assume there was new hope and new warmth in that marriage, then suddenly this happens, you can imagine what was going through her head. How much of the 1,000 days did she spend away from the White House Traveling . I dont have a number, but she did, for instance go to italy in the summer of 1962 with her sister and her daughter. And im asking the question because we talked about International Trips before. Did she intentionally get out of washington . Oh, yes. For instance, they rented an estate in middleburg, virginia, the first two years where she rode horses. She felt that particularly with those children the more she could get them away from the white house and press attention the better it would be for them and her. Katie on twitter wants to go back to the camelot imagery and asks, camelot in the lens jackie wanted jfks presidency to be remembered was discussed, was this an effort on her part to hide their issues . I think not specifically in some sense, but it was her effort to get people to look at that period through that frame and for years it was successful. So her time in the white house, the things we should talk about, her contributions, entertaining and the arts, what did she do on this level to introduce the public to aspects of the American Culture that perhaps they might not have seen before . Uhhuh. Well, you mentioned entertainment. First of all, i counted up 16 state dinners and only those 1032 days they were in the white house. And compare, for example, to george bush xliii they may have had a half dozen or so in the eight years for a host of reasons, 9 11, Security Issues and laura and george bush just didnt happen to like to entertain that way. But the kennedys loved it. They would have the third World Leaders come and draw them in. The arts were then part of that entertainment. So they would have the lively arts. Mrs. Kennedy people would remark on the fact that meme and ike would have fred warren in pennsylvania big band music. Roy rogers. Or military marshall music. The kennedys had ballet and pablo. And opera. Right. Then the Fine Arts Committee bringing paintings, attractive paintings to the white house. Mona lisa to washington. Thats my favorite story the mona lisa coming to washington and to new york and then the picture of her standing in front of it in that gorgeous strapless pink gown again one of those with her arm tucked up under the cultural minister of france is just priceless. And the other thing is that he is so much saw things aesthetically and knew those things could be important which we saw, of course, during the four days in november of 1963. But if you see the way a president now days receives a state visitor, thats all Jackie Kennedys doing during eisenhower and the predecessors if you had a state dinner in the state dining room, there would be a big table in the shape of an e. And the president and first lady and the visitors would be at the long side of this and it was very formal and almost military looking. It was her idea that she should have round tables that encouraged conversation and you should have a pageant on the south grounds perhaps with performers that harked back to the revolutionary period. Even air force one she had repainted with the design that we see now days she knew that even that plane landing at a foreign airport looking the way it does would be a tool of americas diplomacy and the president. It was her idea to greet the foreign visitors on the lawn of the white house. And make it a ceremony. A beautiful ceremony poerz it would be at Union Station or national airport. Jessica is in pennsylvania. Hi, jessica. Hi, thank you for this series. Its so much fun. Im curious to know since shes so lovely, did she have a regular exercise regimen . And what was her diet like . She certainly walked a lot. She liked to get out and walk around the white house grounds, but her favorite sport as most people know was ekwquestrieques. In fact, her mother spent a year her freshman year at sweetbar college where i taught for 21 years and they are known for their equestrian program. That was subtly put in there. Thank you. I thought it was too. She would go to sweet briar after the white house years and she would train with the equestrian coach. This started when she was walking she was in the saddle. That was her favorite way to get out and get fresh air. And we can tell by her physique she obviously watched her diet, ate carefully and exercised well. Were giving the good points we should also say she was a smoker. She was a smoker. Which was something that was very well hidden. Sometimes she would smoke putting a cigarette in an ivory holder which politically would not necessarily been the most helpful thing. She also water skied. On the aforementioned album first family theres one skit where John Kennedy John glen is called for this grave mission and they say, all right, get down to the dock and put on your water jackie is waiting. And on the cover of that album, there is a Butler Holding water skis. And she also took caroline out and pulled her up on the skis with her, so that, that generated letters. How dare you put your child in danger that way . And weve talked about the white house restoration. The truman administration, they gutted the white house, the trumans, and completely restored the framework and the architectural integrity. What specifically did Jacqueline Kennedy and the kennedys do . Well, what happened under harry truman was that for structural reasons, as we saw two weeks ago in your excellent series, the white house had to be gutted and a steel superstructure put inside, eight inches away from the outer walls and thats whats there nowadays. It turned out to be so expensive that there was not much money left to buy furniture, so harry truman made a great deal with b. Altman, the Department Store in new york, to furnish the whole ground floor, the state floor, in bulk, you know, for a pretty good price, with reproductions. Jackie got there after the election of 1960, was shown through it by mamie eisenhower. She was aghast. She said it looked like a statler hotel, which she did not mean as a compliment, meaning that its sort of not very convincing reproductions. So, this mother of two, with other things to think about, took on what was this enormous project of raising a huge amount of money and also getting donations of furniture and art and artifacts. She wanted the white house to be the equivalent of the great houses in europe. She felt that for foreign leaders to come to the white house and have it look like a hotel that was in some cases threadbare and full of reproductions, it cast a bad light on the United States, and so, if you like the way the white house looks nowadays, we should thank Jackie Kennedy. Well, weve been telling people all along that our partners for the series are the folks at the White House Historical association. Of which i am a trustee, i should fully disclose. We should say that. But it was created during this time. By her. What is the story of its creation . What did it do, then . Well, it helped her to restore the white house and acquire furniture and art and artifacts, but the thing that she was most concerned about was she was worried that when she was no longer first lady, the next first lady might not be so interested in history and might have a sister in law who ran a curio shop somewhere, who decided that they would redecorate, perhaps, in the style of the late 1940s or something that was more contemporary. So, she thought that if there was a White House Historical association, that would be one bulwark that would prevent future first ladies from, you know, turning it backwards, back to before the period in which it had become such a great museum. And she set a precedent then, for the other two branches of government. So, very quickly, congress establishes its own historical society, and the Supreme Court did about 10 years later. Were looking, or are about to look at a photograph of the press conference of the announcement of the white house guide that came out at that time, and folks at the White House Historical association tell us its still in print and since its debut in 1962, 4. 5 million books of these books, have been sold. They have. She remembered going there. Youre an author, youd like to have a number like that, huh . Yes, but i think maybe not by. Not for a dollar apiece. Well, i think the guidebook is in a class of its own and should be. 1940, she went to the white house as a i guess it wouldve been a 10 or 11 year old girl. And she was disappointed that there was not a guidebook. Mmhmm. So she felt that was important. She also knew that this could generate income to help with the restoration. So, and that guidebook has been revised, revised, and revised. And you know, as you suggest, is sold today. And theres a great story too, that she had the curator at the time, was writing the text for it, and jackie didnt like the way it was coming out, so she went to her friend. Felt it was going a little slowly. It was, and she she went to arthur schlesinger. She wrote to him and said, would he help with the text. So, here, she had this harvard historian then in the end write the text, and then she wrote the introduction. You referenced earlier her televised tour of the white house when this project was completed, and that it was a pr bonanza for the administration. It was. What were the circumstances of the tour . Who televised it . How many people watched . Cbs televised it. I think it was charles collingwood. Although i think it was shown on all networks. And by that time, there would have been well, certainly the two, and probably we were up to three by then, with abc, who were just coming online then. So, she goes throughout the white house. And remember, were now talking about 90 percent of households having televisions. And even though its in black and white, and we cant see her bright red dress on valentines day, and even though, again, by todays standards, its a bit stilted, people fell in love with it. They think there were about 56 million viewers. They think three out of four viewers watched it. One little boy wrote to her and said, i really liked it. He said, my dad was going to watch maverick, a western at the time. But i talked him into watching this. And she even received a fan letter from from barbara bush, first future first lady. So, it went behind the iron curtain. It went to 106 countries around the world. And she won a special emmy for it. So, it was a real high point of her first ladyship. And deserved it. And also, you know, kennedy saw this, people loved it. He couldnt believe what he was seeing. You know, he thought he knew something about politics. And he would have thought and i think he said this privately, you know, here we have, you know, my wife raising money, buying art and artifacts and furniture, interesting to us, but for most americans, this is going to seem very aesthete and very different from their way of living. It had exactly the opposite impact. It made people love this project that she had taken on. And he did a cameo at the end. So he comes in and does a little cold war vignette where he talks about how important the freedom of the United States is, and how important the white house is. Which she thought was one of his worst performances. One of their friends said. Its a bit stilted, too. One of their friends said i thought it was so great, i just cried when i watched the jackies performance. And jack said, yes, i cried when i saw my performance, too. And as you know, if youve been watching, we have a very robust web site, cspan. Org firstladies, where all of the videos of the programs are archived. But also, a number of other videos from Historic Sites from each first lady are accessible there. Each week, we put a special item that you can see for the first lady being featured. And today, if you go to the site, you will see Jacqueline Kennedys emmy her special emmy for the white house tour. While were in this section talking about the White House Historical association, i do want to mention, the first ladies book, which you can also find there. It is a guide to the biographies of every first lady. It is available at cost. And if youre interested either in a souvenir of the series or learning more about the history of the women weve been profiling all year, theres a link there that you can find it. I think its 12. 95 or something along that line. Lets take another call. This is katie who is watching us in san francisco. Hi, katie. Hi, thanks for the program. Ive been enjoying it every week. Thank you. I i actually wrote my thesis about Jacqueline Kennedy and her support of the fine arts. And i was wondering if you could talk a little bit on jackies relationship with andrew milrowe, and how the American Public actually if they like that relationship with him being a frenchman. And how he helped with the white house restoration. I dont think he had a direct impact on the restoration, but certainly on except for taking her through versailles and showing her how it should be done. Giving her a model to follow. But certainly bringing the mona lisa it was. I would say in the oral history and michael might want to speak to this i i thought she was a bit more admiring of him than she seemed to indicate in the oral history. But she talks about the sadness that he had experienced when she met with him in 1961 in paris, that he and his wife had lost their two sons in a tragic car accident. And so, here he was meeting with her under those tragic circumstances. So, she admired him for that. She admired his literature, to be sure. And and being francophilic about all things. She definitely admired him. So, as we close out our discussion of her white house years, Gary Robinson wants to know, what would jackie say she is most proud of in her white house years or her role after being first lady . Well, she actually did say in the oral history, i think, or perhaps in a letter later on she said that she was certainly proud of the restoration. And she probably wouldnt have used the word proud, because she probably would have said, one of the things i did that i felt was most important. The other, she said, was something that gets almost no attention, she said at the time, and that is abu simbel. And that is the theres a very important egyptian Historic Site that was temples that were in danger of being eroded by the nile, that she actually worked with jfk to get money from congress to save, and did. And the result was that the egyptian government, which would have been nasser at the time, actually said, all right. Well, thank you, mrs. Kennedy. We will send, you know, something of ours to the United States in thanks. And it was a temple that she hoped would be built in washington. It finally wound up put at the metropolitan museum on fifth avenue in new york. And she saw it every morning because it was right outside her bedroom window in the apartment house she lived in. And saving Grand Central station, too. Im sure she. Later on, yeah. Not as first lady. Exactly. But just the question then later in life, you know, with those, would have been some of the things she would have been proud of. And if she would have used that term, no doubt. And she also drew a very strict line. She felt that the things that happened when her husband was president , everyone the American People and others were entitled to. She felt that things that happened before and after, they werent. And there are some accounts of her destroying letters at the very end of her life with that in mind. So, who was Jacqueline Bouvier . We want to spend a little bit of time to tell you about her early biography, and the interest that she developed as a young woman that she brought to the white house. To start that discussion, were going to return to the Kennedy Library to learn a little bit about her early years as a writer. From a young age, Jacqueline Bouvier loved to write. She would often create poems as gifts for her parents on christmas and birthdays. She would write a poem and illustrate it. We have two early examples here from when she was about 10 years old. While at Miss Porters School in connecticut, where she went to high school, she wrote a really wonderful essay. Its called, be kind and do your share. And she says, be kind and do your share, thats all there is to it. And she goes on about how helping others in life is so important, and how easy it is for us to say a kind word for someone, and all the difference it can make to that person. This scrapbook is called, one special summer. After graduating from school, jackies parents her mother and stepfather sent jackie and her sister, lee, on a summer through europe. And as a token of appreciation for that gift, they collaborated together on this scrapbook to give to their parents to let them know what their adventures were. And its a combination of snapshots that they took, handwritten descriptions of the different places they visited, the people they met. And these really wonderful, whimsical sketches done by jackie. In the fall of 1950, Jacqueline Bouvier entered vogues very well known writing contest, the prix du paris contest. And displayed here, we have her handwritten application as a student from George Washington university. She won the contest, and her two winning essays, one was actually a selfportrait, where i think shes wonderfully described herself as tall, 57, with brown hair, a square face, and eyes so unfortunately far apart, that it takes three weeks to have a pair of glasses made with the bridge wide enough to fit over my nose. And again, as an example, i think, of her love of writing and the power of words, shes asked in question three of the essay, who are three people in history you wish you had known . And the first two she mentions are charles baudelaire, the french poet, and oscar wilde, the author, in addition to that, sergei diaghilev, the russian ballet impresario. In the early 1950s, Jacqueline Bouvier was hired as the inquiring camera girl for the washington timesherald. On display here is the camera she actually used as she went through the streets of washington, interviewing different people, asking questions, and creating columns. One column that we have on display here is somewhat prophetic, because shes interviewed Vice President nixon and senator john f. Kennedy, who of course, would be adversaries in the 1960 president ial campaign. And i think all these examples of her early writings, and she did write throughout her life, but i think if her life had been maybe somewhat different, she would have been a writer of some kind, maybe even professionally. And as we know, in her later life, the last part of her life, she was a very prolific editor of books in new york city, working with several different authors on books of several different topics. Brar parbara perry, lets jut the basic facts of her biography on the table. Where was she born, and to whom, and when . Sure. She was born in the hamptons in 1929, just before the stock market crash, in the summer of that year. Her parents were john and janet bouvier. He had been an investment banker, and on wall street, but lost his savings in the stock market crash, but she continued to summer with her grandfather bouvier, she called grampy jack, and he was the one who introduced her to reading and literature at such a young age. And she loved him dearly. And they would write poetry and memorize poetry together. Her mother was a pretty strict disciplinarian, but both sisters, lee and jackie grew up in a broken home. Their parents separate when jackies only seven, and then they divorce when shes 12, and its a very bitter, acrimonious divorce, because her father was a womanizer, and somewhat of an alcoholic. His nickname was black jack . Black jack. Also the name of the horse in the funeral, coincidentally enough, november of 1963. She had this insecure childhood, and the interesting thing is that if you looked at her and didnt know any of this, you wouldve thought that she had just the most perfect early years and probably an heiress. Her father was so short on money that when she was at farmington, in high school, she later said that sometimes she would worry that he would not be able to pay the tuition at the end of the term and she might have to leave. And so, she was able to you know, we were talking about where this strength of will came from. This is someone who, you know, lived in a way that was much more elite than 99 of human beings, but at the same time, had its difficulties. Her father struggled with alcoholism. Indeed. But the extent of of the wealth in the background of her family is important to understand what she brought to the role that she played. So, where did the familys money come from . Well, her fathers family money her fathers family had been in finance, and it was the family money that was lost. Her money her father her mother married an affluent man named Hugh Auchincloss, but he was not in the business of endowing his new wifes two children, so when jackie took on that job, we were just hearing about as the inquiring photographer, it was because she needed the salary. But she also liked to work. Indeed. She was a worker. Hugh auchincloss brought the family to washington. So how did that affect her exposure to the city and how did she develop her affinity for this place . Well, michael had mentioned that she made her first trip to the white house when she was a preadolescent, about 11, 12 years old and that was because her mother was coming to date Hugh Auchincloss who lived in Northern Virginia. So thats her her real introduction to washington, d. C. And then when her mother marries him in the early 1940s, jackie and her sister live with them at marywood, their Northern Virginia estate. All republicans. All republican family, and then they summer up at newport at hammersmith farm. But thats her introduction to the culture of of washington. And Jackie Kennedy would say her first trip at that time to the National Art Gallery was when she fell in love with art and the wonderful feeling it gave her to to view art and sculpture. Well, he may not have wanted to support the family. But i just want to establish from everything you read that this was a life of privilege. Oh, she lived on this huge estate both in mclean, virginia and also in newport. But she was always sort of the poor relation. The poor stepchild, as they say. Im not making an argument that she lived a life of hardship given the way that most of human kind did live and does live now. But this was someone who felt that there were challenges. And she didnt know what her future would be in terms of money except to marry well. True. Which she did. So to that point then how much of the attraction with john kennedy was the fact that his family was very, very wealthy. Well, i think it has to to be some of the attraction, certainly. And and it appears that it o be some of the attraction, certainly. And and it appears that it wasnt love at first sight and that there wasnt chemistry immediately because when they were first introduced at the the famous dinner party by the charlie bartletts in 1951, there were no sparks, really. He he seemed to want to ask her out but supposedly when he went out with her, there was another beau waiting for her, at least another male friend waiting for her. So he was he was stopped short and it took another year for them to to get together at another dinner party at the bartletts. And then he later on said, you know, i thought of marrying you from the first time i met you, and she said, how big of you. And he said, typical jackie comment. What was the age difference between the two . He was born in 1917, she in 1929. 12 years. 12 years. And the they met several times before. There was a. She actually first met him on a train and she wrote about it. She said that, this this congressman with with reddishbrown hair i met on the train. And i dont think she had ever even heard of him although already he was then by by then in congress and written a bestselling book and had a father, joseph kennedy, who had been a rather famous ambassador to england. That was not her woo. And he didnt remember, apparently. Next up, a call once again. This is is it areni . Oh. Nice to have you watching us in chicago. Youre on the air. Hello. I have a question about mrs. Kennedy. What were her favorite hobbies . What did she like to do in her spare time . All right. Thank you. It sounds like we have another student watching tonight. Can you tell us about yourself . Well, im 12 years old, and were doing wonderfully with 12yearolds tonight. Thank you for calling. I love history and i love watching channels like this, like learning new things every every time i turn on the tv so i saw this i saw this channel and i decided to ask a question because i love history. Terrific. Well, thank you. Youre sitting at a table full of people who love history tonight too so glad to have you in the fold. Im from chicago too so im particularly glad you called from chicago. Barbara, do you want to answer the question . Yeah and how perfect to be 12 years old, just the same age as Jacqueline Bouvier when she first went to the white house. The question was her hobbies. Her hobbies. Well, weve mentioned horseback riding, which was from the time she was able to walk, they put her in a saddle and she loved being in equestrian competitions. Her mother was also a rider. She loved all things canine as well. So often times in in movies of the kennedys and pictures, youll see her with dogs. She liked to show dogs. A lot of dogs. Dogs in competition. Lots of dogs around them often times, even in the white house though the president was allergic to cats and dogs and horses. And she loved, as we say, the quiet solitude of of reading, writing poetry, drawing and art. So i would say those were all of her hobbies. And she started even younger than you doing those hobbies. So introduction to john kennedy, one of our japanese viewers asks, what was mrs. Kennedys relationship with president kennedys siblings and siblingsinlaw . So how did she get along with the rest of the Kennedy Family . Well, i think at first, she found it hard and im particularly glad to have a japanese questioner given the fact that Caroline Kennedy is just about to go to tokyo as president obamas ambassador to japan. Jackie kennedy was, to a great degree, an introvert. She liked to read, she had been somewhat wounded when she was a child, she was not a huge extrovert and the kennedys famously are this hugely gregarious, extroverted family. She felt it took a while to get used to that. And her sistersinlaw or future sistersinlaw didnt particularly like the debutante way of speaking and she called them the rahrah girls. Thats right. So they were out playing touch football and and she wouldve preferred to sit on the veranda at hyannis and read a book. We have one more bit of video for you. This is from an interview, tv interview given to Arlene Francis of nbc talking about her life as the young wife of a senator. I would think probably being married to a senator would compare to being a doctors wife because a senator must be on call at all times and you dont know what time hes coming home to dinner some of the time. Will you tell us about what some of the things are that you have to do . I suppose it is like being married to a doctor in that they have such late hours, they go away at a moments notice, work late. And you are alone a good deal of the time then . Yes. Are you active in any political way with committees or anything like that or is your job big enough just taking care of jack . I think thats it. I dont blame you. Now jacks come home. Now, i notice youre extremely brighter in this shot. Do you fix his breakfast for him . Yes. Coffee . Mmhmm. What does he do . Does he tell you what goes on in his trips . You mean at breakfast . Mmhmm. He usually reads about seven papers and runs out the door. There he is with the dog. Thats a lovely shot. But he is describing something to you, you know . Hes not reading the paper there, is he . No. You do talk to her sometimes, dont you, senator . I do. I do. All the time. And enjoy it all the time, im sure. I do. What should we take away from this and how shes describing the early days of their marriage . I think it is so fascinating. Its april of 57. In november of 1957, they had their first child, caroline. I guarantee you that if they did that scene a year later, they would not be posing with a dog. Was the relationship easy from the very beginning or was it tough getting her adjusted to his many travels, being on the road campaigning. It was very tough. And weve mentioned, of course, the medical problems that she had with the child bearing, that he had with his back and his other ailments. But he was gone so often. And they also didnt have their own home. They tried hickory hill, which famously then became the robert f. Kennedy homestead, with his wife ethel and eventually 11 children living there. But jackie and jack had bought that. They thought to start their family. And then when she began to have these miscarriages and stillborn children, it was too painful. So they moved back into town. But they did not really have their own home that they had bought and owned and stayed in for any time until 1957, in preparation for carolines birth on n street in georgetown. One of the small facts i realized is that she actually built hickory hill, which is across the river in mclean, virginia. Well, i dont think it was already there. In fact, it had been owned by general mcclellan, i believe, in the civil war. So the mansion had been there at hickory hill. But we always associate it with the rfk family. Right, because jack and jackie sold it to bobby after they realized that they were not going to be able to fill it with children. And she had spent all of her time in 55 and 56 decorating it, and then only to lose these children. With the nursery. And with the nursery and with special shelves for jack, so that he wouldnt have to bend over or reach too high. And it just became a sad symbol. Plus she was so isolated there. At least if they were in georgetown where they first rented a home and when they first were married, she could go back and forth to capitol hill and take him lunch and she was just so completely isolated there, that they left. A facebook viewer wants to know if there was any known medical condition for all of her problem pregnancies . Smoking, we think, could have been. You mentioned that she was a chain smoker, we think, several packs a day and that that, of course, if it didnt lead to the problems with the actual pregnancies themselves, the lung conditions that some of her children were born with, john, jr. And then patrick who succumbed to it. So that could have been a part of it. They also think possibly that the president s some of his medical conditions, perhaps even stds, could have lead to problems with pregnancy. Dave murdock on twitter. Did jackie share johns drive to be a president or was she comfortable as a senators wife . I think she was comfortable as a senators wife. And she felt threatened by the notion that she would become first lady. I once, decades ago, talked to Franklin Roosevelts son, fdr, jr. Who was a friend of both of them. And he said that jackie essentially panicked after jack won the presidency in 1960. She didnt expect it. She was terrified by its adverse effect on their marriage and their family life for him to be president and for her the first lady to be first lady. And jfk said to fdr, jr. , please talk to jackie and tell her that its not going to be that bad, which he did. We have 20 minutes less than 20 minutes left and a long postwhite house life to cover. And were going to that as best we can in a short time. To start us off, i want to go back to a 1964 video clip. Actually, a film clip in those days. And this is a message to the nation about all the condolences messages that came into the white house. Lets watch. I want to take this opportunity to express my appreciation for the hundreds of thousands of messages, nearly 800,000 in all, which my children and i received over the past few weeks. The knowledge of the affection in which my husband was held by all of you, has sustained me. And the warmth of these tributes is something i shall never forget. Whenever i can bear to, i read them. All his bright light gone from the world. All of you who have written to me know how much we all loved him and that he returned that love in full measure. It is my greatest wish that all of these letters be acknowledged. They will be, but it will take a long time to do so, but i know you will understand. Each and every message is to be treasured, not only for my children, but so that future generations will know how much our country and people in other nations thought of him. Your letters will be placed with his papers in the library to be erected in his memory along the Charles River in boston, massachusetts. She talks about the establishment of the library. So, can you both talk about what Jacqueline Kennedy did to preserve and enhance the legacy of John Kennedys presidency . Well, it did start with the library. Jfk really, about a month before the assassination, went to harvard, saw a Football Game against columbia. Also looked at what was going to be the site of his president ial library on the boston side of the charles, across the river from most of harvard. So, she very quickly began talking to his friends and aides about what kind of exhibit should be in the library. She started raising money for it. And she also began thinking about who should be the architect. And most people wouldve probably found an established architect like Edward Durell stone, who did the Kennedy Center here in washington, and was known for doing government buildings in many cases, in my view, of surpassing ugliness and massiveness. She instead chose i. M. Pei, who is famous now, but at that point was very little known because she thought that, you know, he was much more in the spirit of jfk who was young and had not been that wellknown himself. And shed also, speaking of architects, she had been friends, as had the president , with John Carl Warnecke and in fact she dated him for awhile after the president s death, and he had helped her with the saving of Lafayette Square and putting up lowrise brick buildings that blended in with Lafayette Square, and then he also and he also designed the grave. Exactly. Then he designed the gravesite, and she worked very hard with him on that as well, but as michael said, she after much discussion, chose i. M. Pei. Kathy wants to ask, given Jacqueline Kennedys interest in history and scholarship, i find it intriguing that bits of her life are still under wraps at the Kennedy Library. Please elaborate on this, as i understand her possible interest in protecting her children, but i find the dates far into the future a bit extreme. She had a great interest in history, and she also had a very great interest in privacy. And as a matter of fact, when Caroline Kennedy was thinking about, you know, whether this oral history that i worked on and that weve been talking about should be opened, two years ago they looked for a piece of paper, and it turned out that she had not left a piece of paper saying that perhaps this should be closed for 100 years, which some people thought, but she did tend to err on the side of these things should be closed for a longer time rather than a shorter time. And from my experience, were talking about this a little bit before the program, political leaders and their families tend to overdo it in keeping things closed. Think that things will be sensitive and damaging sometimes, to be opened, than they really will turn out to be. Lbj would be horrified that his tapes were opened, especially given some of his language, and would be shocked to find that many of those conversations that he thinks you know, sort of show him as sort of an uncouth backwoodsman are those that actually help americans to think, this was actually a guy who was sort of cool. And the good news is, for the writer, that the Kennedy Librarys working on the papers. Theyve received grants and donations to process them. They have released and they did for the 1962 to 2012 anniversary, 50th anniversary of the white house tour, they have begun to release mrs. Kennedys papers as they relate to the restoration, and since i had to write my book without even that available, if people are interested, Arthur Schlesingers papers are a wonderful cache of mrs. Kennedys papers in the sense that she wrote to him so frequently. And he was a historian, so he saved everything in alphabetical order. And his office was in the socalled first ladys wing of the white house. In the east wing. Dan is watching in san diego. Hi, dan. Whats your question . Good evening. Just one comment, and then a quick question. The comment ms. Perry didnt understand how important the zapruder film was, or its showing it in high school. As a 40year High School History teacher, i can tell you that students in high school, this is probably i think they associate this young president to being in their lives also as a young man. I know students did in that time. And since then, its kind of been that image that he was such a young, dynamic man. The question is and you the videotape showed it at the library what was the relationship with the nixons either president nixon or pat nixon and mrs. Kennedy after she left the white house . Thank you again for a great series. The relationship was better than one might think. Jackie kennedy found appalling the idea that she would ever again have to return to the white house after 1963. She thought it would be much too painful. She told her secret Service Agents in washington, drive in a way that i will never have to see the white house, because itll make me too upset and ill start crying again. One exception, 1970 and 1971, her and jfks portraits were painted by the artist aaron shikler. They were about to be displayed in the nixon white house. The nixons said, why dont you come down and see them quietly. She felt that she owed it to jfk to do that, so she brought her children. That was a totally offtherecord visit. They had dinner. And she wrote to president nixon afterwards. She said, a moment that i had always dreaded meaning returning to the white house turned out to be one of the most important days ive ever spent with my children. So, she was grateful to nixon for that. In later years, she was not too happy with nixon after particularly during watergate. It came out the number of things that president nixons people tried to do to damage the reputation and image of president kennedy. In 1968, she saw her brotherinlaw, robert kennedy, assassinated. The two were very close, as i understand it. They were. Thank goodness she wasnt in los angeles for that. Yeah, i didnt mean it literally, but. Right. But but had to go through that yet again. And, yes, they had been very close. How concerned was she about security for herself and her children after . Oh, terribly concerned after that. And she supposedly said that, you know, theyre killinfg kennedys, my children could be next. And so, once again, Financial Security and physical security became so important to her. And surely, that was part of the attraction to mr. Onassis. Four months after rfks death, thats when she married Aristotle Onassis. And what happened to the publics perception of Jacqueline Kennedy after she married him . She was pulled off the pedestal. People were outraged. Probably many people were outraged that she would marry anyone at all, rather than be an eternal widow, but particularly, to marry someone who was this much older and who was not an american, and who was under some suspicion by the United States government in some of his financial activities. One person said, she has gone from prince charming to caliban. Do we know if it was a happy relationship . I think of something that her sister said not too many years ago about someone saying, how could she have even been attracted to such a man after having been married to jack kenne kennedy . And her sister, Lee Radziwill said who had, by the way, had also had a romance with him prior to her sisters meaning onassis. Onassis, yes. Not her brotherinlaw. And he and she said, he was really quite charismatic. And she said he the way he moved and the way he looked. And he might not have been a you know, a typical gq representation of a of a beautiful, attractive man, but she said that he was. And she also said, you know, jackie liked all things greek. She liked greek mythology. She liked greek poetry. She also found great comfort in the tragic poets of greece that she introduced brotherinlaw robert to. So, we cant say that she wasnt attracted to him at all, but certainly the money and the physical security as she pointed out, he had his own island, skorpios. How long did the marriage last . From 68 to when he died in 1975. But they were somewhat estranged. She lived a she would say that the marriage was. Good portion of the time in new york. Quite good until january of 73, when Aristotle Onassis son died in an accident. And he blamed her. He felt that, you know. That she was sort of a cursed person. Yeah. She came back to new york city . She did. And something that many people would not have expected she decided to really go to work and get a real job. She became an editor first at viking, and later on at doubleday. And this was not just someone who was there for show business and acquiring books. She actually edited with with great intensity. Her authors were hugely loyal to her. And so, for the last years of her life, by all accounts, she was actually in certain ways happier than perhaps, you know, often she had ever been in life. And plus, she had a relationship with a fine man, maurice tempelsman, who i think that this was a relationship of equals. Its very different from certainly her second marriage, and perhaps her first. And how close did she remain with her children during this time . Oh, very close. Very. Always close with them. Always so proud of them. And i i think her brotherinlaw senator edward kennedys eulogy talks about how, whenever she would speak of them, her face would light up. And she once said in and this gives you so much of her mindset, her husband, meaning jfk, had been very close to the british Prime Minister harold macmillan. And when she was in her deepest grief in 196465, she wrote macmillan and said, if i raise my children well, that will be my vengeance against the world. So, she really felt that she had achieved that vengeance. Her motherinlaw, rose kennedy, lived a very, very long life. Beau hamlin wants to know how did jackie get along with rose kennedy . Thank you. Im going to take that. This is a barbara question. It is. I just published a biography of rose kennedy. A fine one, too. Thank you, michael. It was this past summer. They seemed to get along to begin with, as she did with ambassador kennedy. But she seemed much closer to her fatherinlaw than to her motherinlaw. But she wrote very diplomatically to her future motherinlaw after she met her at hyannis, and said, dear mrs. Kennedy, thank you so much for all your good advice, because certainly, rose kennedy liked to mete out plenty of advice. And one of her favorite pieces of advice to to her family and to anyone was to stand at an angle when one is having a photograph taken, because it makes one look slimmer. Ill turn now. But jackie said thank you, mrs. Kennedy, for teaching me that lesson. So she wrote very after the assassination, there were some issues about whether jackie would come back for the opening and the dedication of the Kennedy Center. Just couldnt. She couldnt face that. She couldnt face being, as she said, the widow of kennedy for the rest of her life. She wanted to be with her children. It was just too painful. And rose, of course, happily filled in for her. But you could see in their letters that there was a little bit of tension. But rose really appreciated that she would be invited often to be with mrs. Kennedy and john and caroline. And she got along seemingly very well with Aristotle Onassis. And also, when a lot of people were going after jackie for having married onassis, rose kennedy, for a variety of reasons, stuck up for her and said jack would have wanted her to be happy. Thats right. And one viewer asks and maybe this is what youve just answered, but you described her as being homeless after the death of of president kennedy. And they wanted to know why the family didnt give her more support, bring her into the fold, give her a place to live . Well, she certainly had money. She had about 150,000 from the kennedy trust that were coming her way, and i understand bobby chipped in another 50,000 or so. She had about 10,000 in a pension, as it were. And this is mid60s dollars. Mid60s, right. Its a lot of money now, but particularly then. Have to times that by perhaps 10 or so for todays dollars. Again, by her standards, perhaps that wasnt enough. But in terms of just a physical place to live, she said in the famous interview with theodore white, the camelot interview, the week after the assassination, she said, i want to live with my children in the places i lived with jack georgetown, and with the kennedys on the cape. So, no doubt she couldve gone to the cape to live at hyannis, but instead she went to georgetown, and again, averell harriman loaned her his home and then she bought a home across the street. But it was inundated with tourist buses and tourists and photographers peeping into her windows and coming up on the porch, and she just couldnt bear it. And so, after a relative few months, she took off for new york and spent the rest of her life there, except for the time she was with onassis. Holly hon on facebook. Did mrs. Kennedy have to testify for the Warren Commission . She did. In june of 1964, earl warren and one or two others from the commission came to her parlor in georgetown and asked her about the motorcade. It was brief. I think it was less than a half an hour. But she did have to testify, and thats on the record, and some of her physical description of the president s wounding was kept from the public for some time because it was too graphic, but its now available. Other questions asked here. Did she ever talk about what her own theories were . The theories continue to this day about the lone assassin, lee harvey oswald, or whether or not there was a larger conspiracy. Did she ever espouse an opinion on this . Not in any source that i would trust. Have you . I havent either, and certainly not for public consumption. Just a few minutes left. Don is in colorado springs. Hi don. Caller hi. Very grateful for your show. The kennedys were very inspiring to me. But my question is how important was jacqueline, or mrs. Kennedys catholic faith to her . Thank you very much. Both kennedys were catholics. How important was it to them . I think she would, and i think barbara would ill just begin on this, she certainly considered herself catholic throughout her life. She had some trouble when she remarried a divorced man, Aristotle Onassis, outside the faith, although was supported in doing that at least to some extent by the family cardinal, richard, cardinal cushing. I think one of the toughest things, at least i find, i dont know how you feel, barbara, but in understanding public figures, two things. Number one, do you ever really get to the real truth of someones marriage, if theyre married . And number two, do you really get to the well to the bottom of what their religious feeling was . Sometimes, president s and first ladies exaggerate that. Sometimes, theres more than appeared on the surface. As michael pointed out so well through the oral history that she was really having her doubts about her faith in those months after the assassination. She said i believe at this moment that god is an unjust god. Exactly. And she talks about her husband jack praying perfunctorily at night. Like a little boy, shed say. A little boy, and maybe a superstition. And she says he did it essentially just in case there is a god. The pascals wager, theyd say. But she also apparently spoke to a father confessor at georgetown university, and even mentioned that she was having suicidal feelings after the assassination, but decided that that would not be the way for her to go. And with children. And with children. So, were going to close here with Jacqueline Kennedys voice one last time, from the oral histories, and this talks about her white house years, as we finish up here. Lets listen. Once we were in the white house, i thought i could get out. And i just cant tell you how oppressive the strain of the white house could be. I could go out and whenever jack saw it getting me down a little bit, hed really send me away. Not exactly but hed say, why dont you go up to new york or go see your sister in italy, and then he sent me to greece, which wasnt you know, which was for a sad reason this year but he thought i was getting depressed after losing patrick. But always, hed i thought i can go out. I can go to a restaurant in new york or walk down the street and look in an antique shop or go to a night club. I used to think i used to worry about going into the white house. Then you found out that you know, it was really the happiest time of my life. You used to worry about going to the white house, and then i found out they were the happiest years of my life. And closing comments and reflecting on her time there as first lady . I think that was genuine and i think heres a case where she had a much bigger impact as first lady in all sorts of areas that weve talked about tonight but they may not have been the ones that people thought about at the time she served. And you suggest that she was a transformational first lady . She set the stage for those to follow . How so . I think so. Just very much the way her generation was a bridge between traditional wives and mothers and the post womens liberation of the modern era. I would say thats exactly the way she was as first lady, that there were traditional first ladies immediately preceding her and afterwards they much more modern, much more full partners with their husbands and picking a particular policy to work on. Michael beschlosss book of the Jacqueline Kennedy tapes is widely available and you can also get the set with the tapes and listen to her in her own voice and. Its wonderful. Everyone should have it. Barbara perrys Jacqueline Kennedy first lady of the new frontier also widely available. Thanks to both of you for being at the table tonight. And thank you for everything youre doing for this series, susan. Its just been splendid. Thanks. Its been a joy for all of us to learn along the way. Have a good evening and thank you for being with us. If you enjoyed watching first ladies, pick up the copy of the book, first ladies influence and image. Through interviews with top historians, now available in paper back, hard cover, or as an ebook. Tonight on American History tv, beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, a look at the lives of Lady Bird Johnson and pat nixon. Cspan in cooperation with the White House Historical association produced a series on the first ladies examining their private lives and the public roles they played. First ladies influence and image features individual biographies of women who served in the role of first lady over 44 administrations. Watch American History tv, tonight on cspan3. The president s, from public affairs, available now in paper back and ebook presents biographies of every president , organized by their ranking by noted historians from best to worst. And features perspectives into the lives of our nations chief executives and leadership styles. Visit our website, cspan. Org thepresident s to ar