Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Hearing On Federal Law Enforcement Cameras 20240712

Body worn throughout the d. O. I. In response d. O. I. Issued a new draft about Body Worn Camera policy. The Leadership Council for human rights and dozens of other organizations came together in 2015 to release basic civil rights principles for Body Worn Camera usage. Though turned those principles into eight criteria for which to evaluate body camera policies. We measured interiors policy against the leadership criteria. Interiors draft interim policy only fully met one of eight criteria. Thats an 88 failure rate. 88 . The deficiencies are significant. The policy isnt publicly available. It doesnt limit Biometric Technologies like facial recognition. It doesnt prevent the officer from seeing footage before writing a report about an incident. In fact, on many of the important questions like those the interior policy says that bureau should decide. That creates an inconsistent set of basic civil protections that will change depending on which bureaus Law Enforcement officer you run into. Since d. O. I. Defers to the bureaus this is the part where i would tell you when the Bureau Policies stacked up against the Leadership Conferences criteria. What are the five major bureau Law Enforcement units interior would only give us the policies for two. And one of those had significant redactions. Only met one of eight criteria for the basic protection of civil rights. The Park Service Rangers policy only met two of the benchmarks. Fish and wildlife fully met four. Interiors briefed the committee on the topic twice ore two years but has still not been able to tell us how much the body camera worn the bodyworn camera programs cost. So that congress can fund them. They told us in 2018 that interior was overseeing a Pilot Project on bodyworn cameras in d. O. I. Agencies though they wouldnt tell us how long it would last who was involved or how much it costs. When we met with them two years later and asked for an update on the Pilot Program they said they had no idea what we were talking. Whvg we invited them to this hearing today repeatedly they refused to answer questions like these. They refused to even attend. A culture of entitlement has infected way too many Police Forces across the u. S. It appears to have affected at least the park police as well. Video footage is not the panacea that will bring cultural fairness, accountability and transparency but it is a first step. This level of resistance of taking this first step only raises more questions about what they have to hide. Miss bijan has reminded us the resistance has consequences. Now well recognize Ranking Member gonzalezcolon for their opening statement, for her opening statement. Ill begin my statement by extending my deepest sympathies for the lost of your son. And i think youre here today to discuss the use of bodyworn cameras by Law Enforcement officers. And this is an important topic and one that involves this question. I want to thank you for joining us today. And talking about other facts factors that should be considered before enacting such a requirement. Bodyworn cameras have the potential to be a useful tool, as several witness noted. They provide benefits for both Law Enforcement officers and the public. While these benefits are indicative of the positive impact these tools will have, i think youre right in your testimony when you say, and i quote, the devil is in the details. The nature and scope of these policies that govern these cameras is critical to this programs success. And while theres an initial positive reaction to the idea of implementing bodyworn cameras, we have a responsibility to discuss the policies to carry out these programs, the cost to purchase and maintain them, and the infrastructure and Technology Needs and the impact as well. In january of 2018 the Office Inspector general released a report that concluded that draft bodyworn camera policy did not meet the industry standards that the Inspector General believed to be mandatory. The fish and Wildlife Services bodycorn camera policy released in may of 2019 seems to address many of the concerns noted in this report including an implementation of standard operate procedures for the storage of data and for the retention of records. As the interior department continues to evaluate these policies i hope the industry standards and the perspective of Law Enforcement officers are taken into consideration as well. Only after the policies have been established that comply with industry standards and address concerns about privacy for both officers and the public should the department begin the process of implementing a bodyworn camera program. After these plans have been solidified the next step is to lay the foundation of it. For bodyworn cameras the Programs Foundation is rooted in the Financial Support the program will receive. When analyzing the Financial Capacity required we must look beyond the initial cost of purchasing the camera, the maintenance cost, expenses to store the data and additional personal costs that could come up with complying with requests to produce footage. These concerns were highlighted in the testimony when he noted that some parts may not have implemented body cameras programs because they do not have the support within the current budgets. Without the ability to financially support these tools and the additional costs associated with them we are setting up these programs to fail. It takes resources to ensure that our Law Enforcement officers can keep us safe and for them to stay safe in the process of doing their jobs. With expenses associated with implementation of bodyworn cameras i have to point out the argument by some of our colleagues who want to institute this program while calling to defund police, that is certainly not a foundation that i would be comfortable building on. The framework can be erected after were confident in this foundation. Once we can be sure theres a financial backing for a bodyworn camera program, we have to ensure that the program is supported by necessary elements and this includes training in how to operate the cameras and comply with policies as well as availability of technology. And infrastructure to store footage. Only with a Firm Foundation and support will the implementation of bodyworn camera requirement is going to be successful. Many Law Enforcement officers view bodyworn cameras as in fact mr. Kaufmans testimony stated evidence has shown that bodyworn cameras can be an effective tool and beneficial protecting both Law Enforcement officers and individuals when they interact with them. However, their effectiveness will be severely muted if the policies guiding their use, financial requirements and support needs are not adequately discussed. Thats why an honest discussion is so important. We have the opportunity to analyze these benefits of the program and if implemented mindfully bodyworn cameras have the potential to benefit the community and our Law Enforcement officers. We owe it to the public and to the brave men and women who serve our communities to have thoughtful discussions around the reality surrounding the requirement of federal Law Enforcement officers and the department of interior for these body cameras. With that i yield back to the chairman. Well, thank you so much, representative gonzalezcolon. Now we will move to witness introductions and to introduce our first witness i will yield to the gentle lady from virginia, representative wexton, to introduce her constituent. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, for allowing me onto this committee and to introduce our first witness, miss Kelly Ghaisar whos a constituent of mine. She lives just outside washington, d. C. In mclean virginia with her husband james. These the mother of two beautiful children, nageen her daughter and bijan her son. Unfortunately shes joining you today because shes part of a growing group of americans she never wanted to be a part 1 2 thats a mother whose unarmed son was killed by Law Enforcement. In her case her son bijan was shot and killed by United States park police 1,047 days ago. Thats almost three years. And since that time their family has received no justice, no transparency, and no accountability in his death. I have the honor of representing her in congress and fighting alongside her for justice for bijan. Thank you, mrs. Ghaisar, for joining us today. I thank the gentle lady. Our next witnesses will be mr. Arthur ago, who is the director of criminal Justice Project for the Lawyers Committee for civil rights under law. Before that he was a public defender in washington, d. C. For 19 years. Mr. Larry cosme is the National President of the federal Law Enforcement officers association. He is a retired special agent with Homeland Security investigations, a division of immigration and customs enforcement. Mr. Jim northup is an executive Council Member of the coalition to protect Americas National parks. He served for over 36 years in the National Park service including 24 years as a Law Enforcement ranger. Jim retired in 2017 as the superintendent of the shenandoah National Park but was also chief ranger among many other positions. Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules they must limit their oral statements to five minutes. But that their entire statement will appear in the hearing record. Before you begin the timer will begin and will turn orange when you have one minute remaining. I remind the members and witnesses joining remotely, use the grid view so that you may pin the timer on the screen. After your testimonys complete please remember to mute yourself to avoid any inadvertent background noise. And ill also allow the entire panel to testify before questioning the witnesses. The chair now recognizes miss Kelly Ghaisar to testify. Thank you, representative wexton, for your kind introduction. Thank you, mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Kelly Ghaisar. Im Bijan Ghaisars mom. And september 4th we celebrated bijans 28th birthday without his physical presence for the third year. Bijan was born in fairfax hospital, the same hospital he died 25 years later. As a toddler bijan was the cutest boy imaginable. He loved his micro cars and legos. I will never forget the joy in his eyes when he got his first playstation console when he was in fourth grade. The summer before his freshman year he trained for and made it to langleys freshman football team. He did not have a Football Players physique and was not born an athlete. But he loved the game and worked hard. He fell in love with the new England Patriots when they won the super bowl after 9 11. Bijan earned a degree in accounting from Virginia Commonwealth University and joined his fathers Accounting Firm in mclean, virginia. Everything changed on november 17th, 2017 when two men in plain clothing knocked on our door. Two detectives from the park police. They told us bijan was in a shootout. I did not believe them. Bijan was antigun, antiviolence, and would not be involved in a shootout. They said they would meet us in the hospital. We never saw them again. When we got to the hospital, the doctor told us bijan was shot in the head multiple times. He would not survive. We then learned we could not visit our son and his body was guarded by the Park Police Officers. After pleading with the doctors and their advocacy the park police let us visit with bijan under the conditions that we could not approach his body, we could not touch him, and there would be a Park Police Officer present and there would be a Park Police Officer present in the room to guard us. We learned bijan was shot by the park police early the next day when we watched the news and saw bijans car in a ditch on tv. The federal government has never explained to my family and the public why alejandro amaria and lucas vineyard of park police murdered our son. The park police has not even started an internal investigation into bijans shooting. These officers were on paid leave for six months and have been back at work for years. The park police do not wear body cameras, and their cruisers do not have dash cameras. If not for Fairfax County cruisers dash cameras we would have never known how our son was murdered. We would never have seen the park police violate their own policies. My family, bijans friends, and our community and the world would not have known the truth, that these officers shot bijan ten times while he sat unarmed in his car. I would like to thank Fairfax County police chief ed rossler for releasing the tape. If not for his courage these officers would have gotten away with their madeup false version of the event. I would also like to thank congressman wexton and Eleanor Holmes norton, congressman beyer, senators warner, kaine, grassley and state senator savell for the kindness and support they have shown my family in pushing the park police for answers. About a month ago u. S. Park police chief gregory moynihan testified that his agency would not participate in body camera pilot. Why would they when they can literally get away with murder without them . My son bijan was a handsome, charming, caring, inclusive, funny and most of all kindhearted young man. Everywhere he went he was loved. I still remember the sounds of bijan. I am proud to have had him for 25 years. Bijan was my best friend and teacher. Every time he would hear me complain or not at my best he would say, mommy, youre better than that. It was humbling. And i was and i loved him for that. Even now i use my words and choose my actions, wanting to make him proud. I pray to bijan every day to help me be a better person and not sink into anger and despair. Bijan deserves justice. Body cameras do one important job. One job. They give us the truth, not a version of alternative truth. We are your eyes. We are your voice. We are your heart. We are bijan. I am forever bijan. Thank you. Thank you. The chair will now recognize mr. Arthur ago to testify. Good afternoon, chairman cox, Ranking Member gonzalezcolon, and members of the subcommittee. My name is arthur ago, and i serve as the director of the criminal Justice Project at the Lawyers Committee for civil rights under law. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the use of in the wake of the killings of george floyd, these Rihanna Taylor and far too many other people of color, and tens of millions of americans have taken to the streets to rise up against police abuse and violence and misconduct. What it simply we need transformative change, for the floyd systems of Police Accountability and trans parents say. The department of the interior, Law Enforcement agencies have failed to implement many of the basic forms that increase accountability and transparency. One first step to transformative change is straightforward. Acquired that the departments Law Enforcement agencies, provide dashboard cameras, and do so under rules and policies. With few other federal Law Enforcement agencies requiring officers to report what they do while on duty, the Department Also has a chance to lead the way across the federal government, and to set an example for other federal agencies to follow. As youve heard from missed his case are, one of the agencies, is one of impunity. They should not have had to file a federal lawsuit, to get the names of the two police park officers who killed her son. One and if not for the Fairfax County police, the public nor the family would have had any recorded the video of what those two offices did two years ago. It was a fight to release the basic information to the case ours. Change is needed, and it is needed urgently. As i stated in my written testimony, this is not an isolated example. This occurred at the hands of several Law Enforcement officers. The research is clear, if officers are not given clear orders on what they must record, and if officers are not disciplined when they failed to follow those orders, Police Cameras fail in safeguarding and accountability and transparency. In fact one study shows that the use of force naturally increased, when officers were given discretion on what and went to record. Common sense principles that protect the integrity of the process, there must be a set of clear policies so the public can review, and there must be strict limits on officer discretion on want to record. There must be timely disclosure of camera footage, when there are allegations the. These are only a few examples of policies in which there is widespread consensus. There is no shortage of examples or successful programs to which this cannot look. The Law Enforcement agency should not be a stain on the proud history and tradition of the department of the interior. These Law Enforcement agencies should not be allowed to stay behind basic police and state reforms. This is a common sense reform. The public and Law Enforcement officers, support body cameras. Nothing will bring back case our or the pain that his family continues to suffer. But robust policies, governing cameras and their use, will be a first step to bringing these agencies out of the past, and making them more accountable and transparent. For the people that they are sworn to serve and protect. We can thank you very much. Thank you, and the chair will now recognize, for his testimony. Good afternoon chairman cox and members of the subcommittee my name is larry. We are the non profit professional association, representing the interests of the Law Enforcement officers in the United States. There are more than 29,000 members, and agencies including those of the department of interior. They are tasked with the Important Mission of protecting the millions of peoples. For more than 27 years i have served as federal Law Enforcement officer, as a special agent within Homeland Security within u. S. Customs and immigration. At the apartment at the department of Homeland Security. I served the American People as required by the constitution of the United States and the laws passed by congress. As a federal Law Enforcement officer my responsibilities and obligations were identical to those of the brave men and women that comprise the Law Enforcement components of the department of the interior. The department of interiors Law Enforcement officers are tasked with an enormous mission that includes sights and locations at some of the most valuable natural and man made resources and treasures. They are also targets of terrorist, international criminals, anarchists, arsonists, thieves, vandals and others that are focused on nefarious conduct and crime. Our nations heritage is tied to those National Treasures and it should be our nations priority and goal to protect them and ensure that we use them as theyre also protected. Unfortunately, over the past few months, the doi properties have not been spared on justice and fairness. Washington, d. C. , in particular, we have seen large scale protest and is riots that occur in doicontrolled property and experienced a heavy toll of the actions of these anarchists, rioters with destruction and devastation. We have seen memorials, buildings, parks, all occurring while the Law Enforcement officers in the department of interior had been tasked with managing and responding to the destruction. Which is in part the reason of this hearing today. Inflammatory fivesecond videos, inaccurate news reports and false social media posts have been used over the past four months to taint Law Enforcement efforts of the federal Law Enforcement officers in america, including the department of interior. While those commentaries begin to dominate reporting on these incidents, they do not capture the officers experience. Its easy to scrutinize officers based on viral videos, but an officer must rely on whats in front of them in a splitsecond decision, based on training that maximize Public Safety. It brings to this hearing the question of Body Worn Cameras as a Law Enforcement tool for Law Enforcement officers and the department of interior. As a general rule, some of this can be used as an effective tool to protect Law Enforcement officers and those individuals they interact with and it has evidentiary value. But one thing i want to highlight in my testimony is the communication issues that the department of interior has in its inadequate funding of the Communication System that should go hand and hand with Body Worn Cameras. We have to understand the Financial Impact on these agencies that will be enormous and maintaining these Body Worn Cameras and also the ability for these Body Worn Cameras, the purchase of the hardware, the reviewing and the implementation of the policies that need to be consistent across the board with these Body Worn Cameras and maintaining these just like maintaining vehicles that government and Law Enforcement use every day when theyre patrolling their areas of responsibilities. And also the training and potential Pilot Programs must first be funded and implemented prior to any component or department rolling out a servicewide Body Worn Camera policy. The disclosure of records must also be addressed and for the disclosure and the privacy of the individuals that are encountered during the Law Enforcement officers work. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today and im proud to represent the federal Law Enforcement officers of the United States. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Thank you so much. The chair will recognize mr. Jim northrop for his testimony. Chairman cox and members of the subcommittee, good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I serve on the executive council of the coalition to protect Americas National parks. The coalition is a Nonprofit Organization composed of more than 1800 retired, former and current employees of the National Park service who collectively have nearly 40,000 years of experience in managing and protecting National Parks and National Park visitors. I personally worked for the National Park service for over 36 years, 24 of those years as a Law Enforcement commissioned ranger. I worked as a field ranger, supervised Law Enforcement commissioned rangers at National Parks and served as the chief ranger at Great Smoky Mountains park. For the last twelve years, i served as a park superintendent providing oversight to the resource and visitor protection programs including Law Enforcement that Picture Rocks shore. The coalition is supported within the department of the interior. We believe in rigorous professional standards for Law Enforcement programs and strongly support the use of incar and body camera systems by doi, Law Enforcement officers and park rangers. The coalition is also an advocate for periodic evaluation of programs against accepted professional standards by thirdparty accrediting organizations. As was mentioned earlier, within the park service there are two groups with responsibility for Law Enforcement functions within our National Parks. The u. S. Park police who serve primarily in the more urban parts of washington, d. C. , new york and San Francisco. And u. S. National park rangers who are duty stationed in the other units of the National Park system. Both groups function as fully commissioned federal Law Enforcement officers. I think it would be of interest to the committee to know that incar Video Systems have been in use by park rangers in numerous parks for many years and more recently the use of body cameras by National Park rangers has also become more widespread. The National Park service has advised me at last count that body cameras were in use by over 1,000 commissioned rangers in over 100 parks. Though not mandatory, the nps has been supportive of the use of incar and body camera systems by field rangers. They are strongly supported by management and field rangers. We do understand that based on a 2015 memorandum, the u. S. Park police do not use Body Worn Cameras at this time. I can tell you from my personal experience that while video footage of a Law Enforcement encounter never tells the entire story of an incident, it does provide critically Important Information about incidents where almost everyone is under a great deal of stress, there are conflicting perspectives, and memories are known to be faulty. I have personally used this information to review use of force incidents, arrest procedures and complaints filed against rangers. These systems promote professionalism and protect Law Enforcement officers. However, we agree with the 2018 Inspector Generals report that the dois policies on the use of this equipment needs to be more fully developed and be consistent with accepted professional standards. The departments policy on Law Enforcement has been silent on this issue for too long. Resulting in an individual bureaus each developing their own policies. We believe the igs report contains excellent recommendations for how this program should be implemented throughout the department. While we strongly support the use of this equipment, we also believe that this cannot be an Unfunded Mandate from congress. I can tell you that the parks that do not have an incar or Body Camera Program likely do not have one because they simply cant support one within current park budgets. If Congress Wants to see the doi use this equipment consistently throughout all of the bureaus, Congress Must provide the funding necessary to properly manage the program, purchase the equipment, provide the training, maintain the equipment, manage the data by accepted professional standards and effectively manage the freedom of information act requests and other issues release issues associated with the gathering of this information. The coalition to protect Americas National parks believes that the use of both incar and body cam systems by the department of interior Law Enforcement officers and park rangers is imperative to having a Law Enforcement program that is totally professional, transparent, accountable to and trusted by the public. Thank you for the opportunity to comment today and i would be happy to answer any questions you have from me. Thank you. Thank you so much. And exactly why were meeting here today. I want to thank the panel for their testimony and remind members of the committee that Committee Rule 3d imposes a fiveminute limit on questions. And the chair will now recognize members for any questions they may wish to ask the witnesses and well begin with myself. In your testimony you mentioned that the two u. S. Park police came to your door the night bijan was killed and told you that bijan had been in an quote unquote shootout and they would meet you at the hospital. Not only was there no shootout, since your son was completely unarmed, but the officers never met you or came to meet you at the hospital. And i think i speak for any reasonable person when i say that the u. S. Park Police Officers treatment toward you that night was abhorrent. Can you tell us a bit more about how they treated you after that night . Did they treat you with professionalism that you expect from a Law Enforcement unit and how did they treat how did the way that the park police treat you compare to the way that the Fairfax Police department treated you . Thank you for that question. Well, actually, that night when the detectives came to our house, as you mentioned, they told us bijan was in a shootout, which was a lie to begin with. They also told us that they would go back to the scene and they would meet us at the hospital to explain more. We never ever saw those two detectives again. In fact, we never met anyone from the park Police Expect the day that chief mcclain came to the waiting room to tell us three days later, hes turning over the case to the fbi. Thanks so much for that. Did the park police ever acknowledge that they killed your son . Is that something that is even in dispute . Well the park police has never acknowledged the fact that their officers shot and killed my son. They have never held a meeting, a press conference, anything to let my family or the public know of what happened to bijan, ever. That night in the hospital, when we got to the hospital, as i said in my opening statement, the doctor told us that bijan was being guarded and he was evidence, as they put it. And when we got really sad and started crying, they let us visit with bijan for ten minutes and as i mentioned, that bijan would be guarded. As far as treatment, i dont know what more could be crueller than that. So i would say the treatment was inhumane and awful. Thank you. And mr. Argo, youre a former public defender. In that capacity, did you have any experience or knowledge of the u. S. Park police and can you tell us me, what would be the perception among your former colleagues of the u. S. Park polices representation for fair and just policing. Thank you for your question, chairman cox. I was a public defender for close to 20 years in washington, d. C. As supervisor and ultimately the chief of the Trial Division of the Public Defenders Service and unfortunately the United States park police had by far the worst reputation of all of the Law Enforcement agencies that operated within the nations capital. They had the reputation of violating Constitutional Rights of people they arrested and an agency did not keep records, did not appear to follow guidelines, did not provide any records to the public for review. And that reputation was confirmed by the United States Attorneys Office who would frequently dismisses cases involving the United States park service. Thanks so much for that. Also, with a reputation like that, would it be fair to say that focusing on better accountability and transparency at the park police would be a good place to start and certainly would wearing body cameras help with that . It is an absolutely necessary. First step, chairman cox, that transparency and accountability begin at the United States park police and Body Worn Cameras and dashboard cameras are a first step. Thank you so much. With that, i will yield to my Ranking Member. Representative gonzalez colon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Before i begin, i need to send my deepest sympathies to ms. Ms. Ghaisar. That should never happen. You never expect Law Enforcement officers to be involved in Something Like that. Im deeply sorry about it. I want to say, in light of your testimony you highlighted the Financial Impact of Body Worn Camera program as one of the issues that need to be discussed today. I would like to walk through some of the different costs associated with implementing a Body Worn Camera program. Im not too much related with the issue itself in terms of financially how much is the maintenance and how this can be used and supported. Lets begin with the initial cost. What is the typical range of costs of purchase a Body Worn Camera . It depends on the technology and the hardware. But the range goes from anywhere between 150 to about 1,500 dollars per hardware, per officer. Youre talking about 1,000 pieces of hardware multiplying it by that amount, depending on the quality of the camera itself. Besides the hardware, you have the software. Thats where it gets tricky. The Software Needs upgrades yearly and these companies, these private companies that sell these products have a licensing fee. The hardware applies for each item that you purchase, you have to buy the licensing and a Software Upgrades to keep up with the technology on this. And also it involves the training of the personnel and the deployment and how to download the data and how to separate it for evidentiary purposes. In that same sense, i know that many of the Law Enforcement officers at the department of interior work in different commissions, outdoor conditions, and others. Is the cost of this equipment different from my other Law Enforcement if they work in the department of interior or it should be the same . Actually, its higher because of the nature of the conditions that theyre working in. For example, fish and wildlife officers, they work in conditions, when the equipment becomes defective, you have to get it replaced. You have to factor in the replacement factor for the cost of each individual officer. Don beyer jr. And youre saying about the department of interior. Should every officer receive their own body camera . Whats the benefit of having a specific assigning body cameras to officers instead of having them changing whose officers are using them daily . Don beyer jr. I think its important for proper maintenance and also just like any tool that an officer gets issued or an Agency Within the department of interior, or a vehicle, per se. It is in your equipment, Law Enforcement officer and its the responsibility of that officer to make sure that they properly maintain and keep up with it. Question, once you purchase the camera and were talking about the maintenance, what are the costs expected to for the storage of all of the data that can be captured . Youre talking in the millions. You have to utilize a cloud. Besides the cloud, you have to have personnel that is required to save specific snippets of the footage that is obtained during an encounter. If were talking about millions of dollars in equipment, and the data storage and everything, but how can that happen if you defund the police . Absolutely not. Im supportive of it also, like you are. Im supportive of it, but if you want to defund the police and departments, its never going to get you anywhere in terms of Body Worn Cameras. The departments are not going to have the ability to purchase them. You said that in your testimony that you were generally supportive of the Body Worn Cameras. Is there any situation that you feel that Body Worn Camera may not be appropriate . Absolutely. We support as we support four patrol officers were daily routine basis and power programs back on capitol hill also on capitol hill for the police when their interview witnesses or interviewing confidential informants that come forward for crime. Thank you. My time expired i yield back. Thank you so much. Now we will recognize in order of seniority, well start with representative buyer from virginia. Thurman cox thank you very much. Allowing me to be here. And of course for having this hearing and for staying on top of this issue for almost the last two years. And her husband james thank you for having the courage of agreeing to be here. We are still seeking justice for beyond. You mentioned in your testimony that the park police has not even started an internal investigation of the shooting. For, years my office along with others we have asked in person and with written communications for the department to this engage in a holistic review and weve never had a satisfactory answer. I first was no, the fbi has to investigate we have to wait for them. And after the fbi investigation, we hear that we have to wait for all the legal cases that go through the courts. This is been almost three years in another month. Is that justice . Hello how are you . Well, know this is not justice. Definitely we have not seen nor had any justice from our police in the past two and a half years. I can tell you that they are the most secretive, they are the most guarded, they are the most Unbelievable Police unit ever. And ive made my life to research about Police Brutality and Police Cameras and everything regarding the police for whatever the reason have kept this under wraps. They even kept their officers names until almost a year and a half after jewish shot. We had to get the names from a judge through a civil lawsuit. That is shameful, very shameful. Thank you very much. Mr. Norfolk, mr. Cosby, thank you both for coming and for speaking very eloquently about the needs and its for the successful body camera and dash camera program. It does cost a lot of money. And there is months after his murder, i met with the chief, who committed to me that the park police would be adding cameras and an added funds. We have worked every year since then to ensure they have the funds. The idea that democrats would defund the police is a fox news myth. We are not doing that at all. In the summer, when we worked we got money from the house of progressives why the park service would not adopt body cameras, just after we passed a bill, his answer was nothing, no answer. So mr. Iowa, you speak about the importance of accountability. It takes over half a year for a park journalist to return of a simple letter from barr track services is backtracked on its own promise to get body camera up and running. Please cannot tell us about body cameras, they are not legitimate excuses. We are frustrated and how do we build a counter middle uptown ability into her department refuses to take it . And we need new leadership that will take that more seriously . Thank you congressman buyer and thank you for your leadership on the issue of Body Worn Cameras in the federal government and particular in the federal police along with leadership of congressman post norton. Thank you both of. That absolutely, the park police needs to be more accountable and transparent. The benefit of having this subcommittee hearing is so that the issues can be aired out and discussed and so that the subcommittee can provide guidelines tied to funding to the department of the interior to create that type of accountability and transparency starting with frankly the leadership of the park police and the troubling history of acting chief moynahan. So the answer your question, it is yes. Congressman buyer. Thank you for everything. Mr. Norfolk, i have a simple question for you to as well. 36 years as a park service and 24 as a ranger. Im the only member of congress that was a park ranger, fully for less than a year. But for all those years as a lock and enforcement commissioner ranger, to stan is, do we need the park police, or should they be invaded integrated in the other service. Mueller are distinctive roles for the park police and National Park rangers. As i mentioned in my testimony, the u. S. Park police our duty station primarily in the urban parks, like in washington d. C. , in San Francisco and new york. They are focused almost exclusively, not exclusively, but almost exclusively on performing Law Enforcement. National park rangers on the other hand ive taken great pride for many years in being what i call a multi skilled specialist. They perform Law Enforcement, they are fully trained and equipped and commissioned as officers but they also perform emergency medical services, search and rescue, fire fighting, and performing a number of other Public Safety duties. So the job descriptions are a little different in large part because of the environments in which the park police and the park ranges work. Well thank you so much. The chairs is now going to recognize again a stallone. I have questions i was asking mr. A few minutes ago about the body cameras. Is there any limit of the use of this camera and who did and identify them when theres an interview of a potential witness, maybe not now but the list of limitations they are association not to use these body cameras . When you have victims of crime, when you are also trying, and particularly have a crime that can use a confidential informant or even people who are associated with the crime itself, could be multiple conspirators, when you are trying to elicit information. If you have Body Worn Cameras and youre trying to deal with that situation and you make it capable for those individuals to cooperate with the Law Enforcement officer. Just to make it clear, how does wearing a body camera make an impact for officers daytoday operations . The cost of the training that should be expected to be provided with the conjunction it with the use of the cameras. Can you explains the difference between them . The daytoday training. Sure, the point of the cameras involves different training, ongoing training. The technology changes, its always evolving, just as we buy a computer its the same thing. When you Download Software or, those people who are responsible for maintaining the software, are responsible for were talking a very expensive product. Most of the time theres these false allegations when theres false allegations made against officers, and talking we dont want to talk about the current matters in front of the committee, but in most cases it does, help its been beneficial. Its a recurrent cost for maintaining the training, outfitting new officers with new cameras as the Technology Gets better with time. Question i do. Have in order to manage beta, its slightly to hire additional people to manage maintenance or the data. Absolutely. I hire professionals who are experts in this area to help the officers, youre talking thousands of officers in any particular jurisdiction. It takes a lot of time and it takes the officers, technically officers download their data at the end of their shift. So what happens is that timeframe its time that the officers are not out in the field. And not doing their job in their areas of responsibility. See do higher professionals in these areas. There are issues that also quantify the amount of money in order to maintain. Does that include that that person freedom information act. Thats correct freedom of information act weathers a specific case or someone just specific clearing of time during where the data was captured. You have to hire a lot of people for that. Question. He should be having experience because some of the other agencies have this infrastructure, i want you to walk me through what the Infrastructure Requirements are necessary for successfully Body Worn Camera. What kind of technology to the common we need to have access to . Is it different from department to department . Thats correct. It is different depending on the department and its subcommittee components. Depending on the train youre working on. Like the department of the interior, like official wildlife officers that are on different terrain. Theyre in a more rural terrain. Theyre in the bigger cities in more metropolitan areas, so the type of hardware theyre gonna utilize no situations is different. Also recurrent training and also whats going to be released you have to factor all that in in terms of the total amount of money that is used to maintain. This but in your testimony you resist an issue of to review it and disclosed the recordings on body cameras. So in your opinion, which officer should have access to footage and once it has been downloaded and stored . I think that the office saw officer technically has the body camera should be have the ability to review the footage. What they should do is make a copy of the original footage, store that in the cloud now have those officers have the original village have the ability to look at. Somebody said a new testimonial earlier, said writing in an incident report. Ultimately these officers are responsible for the original footage and thats the key to safeguard that original footage in thank you so much mister the chair is now going to recognize our colleague from the district thank you so much. Thank you very much mister chairman. Can you hear me . I want to thank you for hundreds of very important to ask questions. When i not a member of the committee or subcommittee but its very important for me to be here. I want to thank chairman for his attention to this important issue along. My questions are really for miss. We have worked closely with his family who has courageously held together to make sure that justice is done for beige are. Weve had press conferences, they have made sure that this matter was resolved. Congressman they have worked a closely together. After the tragic death and we were pleased that we were able to get dashboard and body cameras in the now pending in fact its past justice in policing attacked. We have reasonably that notion of body cameras will in fact be passed at some point because it has bipartisan support. Miss , in light of the work being done and federal dashboard camera area can you speak to the importance it has been to you, the importance it would be due to have that legislation passed for these dashboard cameras body cameras in light of . And thank you very much for that question. Its very important because i had we not had footage, of the dash camera of Police Officers, people would not have had the truth because even maintaining that video, watching that video, seeing it with our own eyes, the events that the Park Police Officers have described does not show what our eyes see. That is how important the dash cameras are, body cameras. Theres no amount of money that can explain why they cant be implemented. Im sure as federal officers, they have enough in the budget to cover for the simple body camera. A persons life and transparency is worth a lot more than weve been told in the last half hour. I mean yes, indeed. I was surprised to hear so much discussion of cost at this hearing. Cost of what . Cost of a life . Exactly. Im sorry to interrupt you. I am appalled at the excuses that i hear. Fairfax county and other police units are able to afford body cameras and dash cameras and are our federal officers, Park Police Officers, our federal officers, do not have the budget or time to implement this important transparency tool. The only reason is that they dont want to be transparent. Period. Stated it well. Of course, we have these cameras here and, thankfully, they have them in Fairfax County. Importantly, there is overwhelming support by both police and members of the public. It should not be controversial and i think it is not controversial. Thats why we were pleased to get it in the policing act that has passed the house and we are certain at some point will pass the senate. Ms. Ghaisar, given the tragic death of bijan, quancan you please say to us what the Park Police Officers refusal to implement such a program has continued to impact your family . Their refusal to implement remember, we were able to get a Pilot Program. Yeah. So if you could see some implementation of even a Pilot Program, what it would mean to you and your family . That would mean the park police is ready and willing to change their policies and be more transparent. The fact that that committee refused to even participate in the Pilot Program, everything there is to know, they dont want transparency. Thank you. Thank you so much, representative holmesnorton. Before we go back, i want to make sure all the members have an opportunity to ask their questions. So the chair now going to recognize our colleague from virginia, ms. Wexton. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to the panel for joining us here today. And mrs. Ghaisar, thank you so much for sharing bijans story with us. I know its very hard for you to keep going over this again and again and still have no closure. Now, for those of you who are not aware, im a former prosecutor. I was a criminal defense attorney. So i appreciate the roles that everybody plays in keeping our community safe. And mr. Argo, you know, my hats off to you because pds has a National Reputation of being one of the finest public defender agencies in the country so i know you have been there in the trenches fighting for peoples rights, thank you, guys, so much for your service. Its really appreciate your remarks and what youve done for our country. Think its important to remember all those roles are important to keep our communities safe. Transparency and accountability are necessary for the public to trust Law Enforcement. Part of that, i would hope you agree, that officers act under clearly defined general orders when it comes to use of force and pursuit policies. Would you agree . Yes. Okay. And do you agree body cameras when theyre used properly and work well protect only the civilians with whom officers interact but also the officers, themselves, is that correct . Yes, i do. Right. Thats by my experience in the jurisdictions where i practiced where we have dashboard camera and things like that. Are you familiar with best practices and use of force and training policies . Absolutely. And have you had an opportunity to view Fairfax Countys dashboard footage of bijans killing . Yes, i have. Okay. So in that footage you observe that the officers got out of their cars with their guns drawn. Is that a best practice in a misdemeanor pursuit case . Typically typically its not an initial best practice. Okay. Especially where they have no evidence that the person may be armed or threatening to them, right . I dont want to comment specifically to bijans. I dont know the totality of the circumstances. I understand its a tragic loss for his mother and family. I sympathize with that. I dont know the totality of that. In a general rule if its a misdemeanor, thats not a best practice. Okay. Is it generally the best practice to approach the automobile and slam your firearm into one of the windows . I dont know the specifics of that case, but in general no one should be slamming their firearm into anything. I wasnt there at this specific incident. I dont want to comment specific to bijans incident. Im not fully aware of the whole incident other than reviewing the video. I understand. I understand. Generally to kick an automobile is also not best practice is my guess, is that correct . Typically not for a Law Enforcement officer, but i dont want to judge those officers. I was not there and i dont know the totality of the circumstances, but in general, thats not the rule. But might body cameras help capture footage that might explain why why an officer was doing these things . Yes, it can, but its not the final solution in itself, capturing the whole incident because sometimes you have different angles, like, for example, there have been some im not saying im sorry, im just going to reclaim my time because im running out. Yes. Are officers trained to shoot at vehicles that are driving away from them . Every department has different policies and some policies they could be permitted to shoot at vehicles. Most policies, they dont. So most most police, most general orders, prohibit driving or shooting at vehicles that are moving away from them. Is that correct . Unless their lives are in danger or somebody elses life is in danger. Very good. Is it typical to separate suspects and witnesses before they speak to Law Enforcement . Separate them from one another, witnesses to the same incident . Yes. Typically. And the purpose of that is to make sure theyre not getting their stories straight or concocting a story . Correct. Are you aware the officers rode back to the station together after killing bijan . Im not aware of that. Okay. Are you aware that the park police changed its use of force and pursuit policy after bijans shooting . Im not aware of that, no. Okay. Is it typical for internal investigations to await the results of criminal investigations or can they be conducted concurrently, those internal investigations that the Law Enforcement agency typically, what happens is the criminal part, if theres a criminal investigation and nature, that goes first and then the internal disciplinary action goes afterwards. Historically, thats the way it works. Thank you. I see that my time has expired, mr. Chairman. So ill yield back at this time. We will have subsequent rounds. Certainly, there will be an opportunity. Really want to dig into this subject further. So the chair will now go back to my Ranking Member, representative gonzalezcolon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think its important to say that there should be no excuses at all for not using or implementing bodyworn cameras. I think we want to make that clear. Actually, i began my testimony saying i do support the bodyworn cameras and actually many federal officers will use it, but i do understand as well that we need to provide the resources so theres no option that the camera was not working or the footage was not available in the discovered process. Or the chain of evidence. So i just want to make that clear. I think thats the call for conspiracy. And actually, this is a hearing were having for implementing this idea that i support, again, so dont think that myself is against the issue. Actually, i deeply believe in this and thats the reason i do not believe in the police. How are you going to be implementing these kind of equipment and this kind of bodyworn cameras if youre defendunding the resources for actually requiring this equipment then maintaining it . So, mr. Cosme, i do have another question. Related to the footage, you your testimony raised an interesting point about prosecutors and defense attorneys, organizations, bodyworn cameras. In what context. So can you provide along with how can we ensure accurate inspection of incident the custody of the chain of evidence . What happen is sometimes you have prosecutors, defense lawyers, that are representing their clients, obviously, requesting footage on certain incidents and that takes up time and its not just as easy as snapping your finger and going there, looking at thousands of hours of footage. And like, for example, on a federal prosecution level, when youre talking to an assistant u. S. Attorney trying to ascertain specific footage, you try to get to the right specific footage youre looking for. Its difficult to look at thousands of hours of footage and whos going to do that. Thats a manpower resource issue to the actual department, done by that department. Prosecutions. Even on a local level they have a set team of folks, now from Law Enforcement partners on state and local level, they have dedicated folks that handle those requests. Another question, then, said in your testimony the Pilot Program should be implemented prior to have departmentwide rollout of department cameras. Why do we need a Pilot Program in the department of interior if you got other federal officers in all the departments that actually already got their cameras . It goes specific to that department. I think its important the stakeholders in that department which are the officers on the front lines that we represent have the ability to report back to their command staff and say, okay, this is working, this is not, this is whats beneficial in terms of what kind of quality of camera, hardware, the quality of the actual software, all that data is compiled during the Pilot Program, reported back to whoevers designated within their chain of command to report back to the Overall Department heads. The department of interiors actually got several which of them should be the one for a Pilot Program . If any . Which of them should be doing it . We could start with the u. S. Park police. Fish and wildlife have it and other subcomponents that have it. If you do it across the board, a little bit smaller than other departments like where i retired from the u. S. Department of Homeland Security which is a lot larger than department of interior. Depending on the cost i think it could be implemented in a couple subcomponents, you know, across the board. That way they can report back within six months of whats going on, you know, with that data and whats the hardware that they purchased initially . In my opinion, theres no money that can be changed for lives. So in that sense we need to promote the transparency but need to allocate funds for that. We as a committee look forward to implementing this idea which i support. We should look at the money as well so theres no option the agency is not complying with congressrequirement. I do have several other questions, but i my time is going to expire, so i yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you so much will have another round of questions. Me, representative beyer, holmesnorton, then representative. Mr. Cosme, over the zoom here, i can tell you you look just like Robert De Niro which might provide a bit of your testimony a little bit more gravitas. I just want to bring up a point when i used to be a high school wrestler, my coach told me if youre not Getting Better every day, youre getting worse. Theres no saying the same, youre Getting Better or youre getting worse. High dont want to construe that the sentiment of requiring improvements to our police force is i dont support cops. Would that be something that you agree with . That we should be strivings toward perfection and to be Getting Better each and every day . I think its important to Getting Better every day. With you have to support the individual. Im also a wrestler, chairman cox. I wrestled with School Chairman cox. I see where youre going. I think its the support of the whole issue. I agree. Its funny, bill passed by the house, democrats supported communityoriented policing programs in the house funding bill so we want to be clear here is body cameras and dashboard cameras are about better policing. On the h. E. R. O. E. S. Act waiting on republican acceptance the majority of that is for Police Officers, firefighters, first responders, and so on. So i can tell you, theres widespread support about the people that are keeping our communities safe, but we need to be able to Work Together and to engender more trust. And it is our contention that we know that more accountability, more transparency, would engender more trust. And id love to hear your thoughts on that. I think thats important, chairman cox, overall, it would endear more trust. But its also important that the Law Enforcement officers out there hear this from all elected officials. From any side of the spectrum. That they are supported when they are being attacked like the ones that were attacked at the white house, that were occurring, peaceful protests turned into riot and they were being attacked by bricks, caustic substances and unknown liquids, thats important we also support them in that area. Im supportive of funding for the men and women we represent. Thats important for the welfare of the department, the job. Thank you very much. I want to thank mrs. Ghaisar once again for being here. It takes unspeakable strength and deep kindness to work so hard to turn a personal tragedy into advocacy and make sure Something Like this never happens again. Its even more remarkable because of the families that are going to benefit from your efforts. And theyll likely not ever even know about your efforts, but thank you, again. Annas mom is ghaisar testified, there are lessons to be learned with confrontations. With Law Enforcement i want to ask about another one. On may 28th, 2018, 2 rangers from the bureau of land management, other bureau, approached a van they believed had been in the park for more than two weeks on the land. The rangers engaged with eugene bayless inside the van and noticed a holstered gun on the dashboard. The rangers tried to secure the guns as they talked to him. Bayless tried to pull the gun from his holster. Body footage, body camera footage showed bayless drew the gun, showed bayless fired first hitting the rangers ballistic vest. There was an exchange of gunfire leaving bayless dead. The evidence from the body camera was essential in determining the facts and charges are going to be are not naturally pressed against the rangers. Mr. Ago, what does an incident like this tell us about the utility of bodyworn cameras and what does it say about the need for good policies . Thank you, chairman cox. It shows the importance of bodyworn cameras and rules and regulations followed specifically surrounding their use and in particular what it shows is Police Officers working in manners that are reasonable, that are consistent with protecting the public and protecting health and safety, will be exonerated in situations when they use Necessary Force as a result of an assault on them. And so bodyworn cameras support the Police Officers in this situation. Thank you so much. And very quickly, mr. Northup, same question for you. What lessons for body cameras does that usage does that incident raiders hole for you . Chairman cox, i am not familiar with that particular instance. Im relying on what you just said. I can only echo what mr. Ago just said which is that bodyworn cameras are often instrumental in understanding what occurred, why it occurred and often exonerates officers not only in really serious situations like you just described but sometimes with pretty routine complaints. Ive been able to use footage from incar camera systems to clear complaints about rangers about, frankly, were just unfounded. Great. They absolutely serve the public interest. Thank you so much. Im going to yield my tameime and now yield to my colleague from virginia again, representative beyer. Thank you, chairman cox. By the way, its very fun to call you chairman cox. Mr. Ago, you spoke about the importance of transparency. Im very fortunate to represent Northern Virginia where we have really high standards with arlington, fairfax, fallschurch, alexandria. I want to compare the transparency between fairfax and arlington and the Parks Service because Fairfax County, we have the vast video dash camera that gave us the insight into bijans death, not from the park police. Burlington county, we have audio, communication, lafayette plaza, gave us insight into the infamous bunker bible photo photoshoot. We didnt get that from the park police. Alexandria where i live, more than now 80 officers have completed the Mental Health First Aid Training and fallschurch police, i think they know everybody who lives in the city. Mr. Ago, thenacting chief mcclain the last time we met, the park police have lost the trust of the local communities. Everybody in Northern Virginia knows about bijan and knows what happened. Too many people have been brave enough to watch the tragic video. Can you explain why transparency is so important as a tool for Police Agencies and why having local trust is so important, how they can even begin to rebuild that trust. Thank you, congressman beyer. I appreciate your remarks. Transparency is crucial and goes hand in hand with accountability for police. Trust is what creates good policing because the community that police serve and protect and that promote and whose officers promote the health and safety of the people in those communities, then begin to work hand in hand with the police to provide services that are necessary to make the to use chairman coxs phrase, to be better every day. If youre standing still, youre not Getting Better. And so to use chairman coxs phrase, thats what accountability and transparency provide, and in particular with the park police, congressman beyer, this comes from the top. It comes from leadership that is welcoming of accountability and transparency. There is no real controversy i see in this subcommittee at all. Everybody is supporting bodyworn cameras. Everybodys supporting proper rules and regulations. We would argue with some of the things that mr. Cosme has suggested as proper rules and regulations. Having said that, though, the idea of proper rules and regulations are necessary. And so the problem with the u. S. Park police, and it is tragically being experienced by the trauma to the ghaisar family and in particular mrs. Ghaisar is their approach and attitude toward transparency, accountability, as opposed to the Fairfax County, virginia, police and their conduct in this particular case. Yeah, were very proud of the rest of our police and still are so concerned. We know right away park police had a policy about chases which the officers ignored. They had a policy about use of force which the officers ignored. And still no accountability. Mr. Cosme, we talked a lot about funding issues. I just looked it up. We appropriated and enacted senate, house, president , 15 billion for the department of interior for the fiscal year that ends tomorrow. And another more than 9 billion in Permanent Authority for the that doesnt have to be appropriated. 24 billion. You wrote very nicely about how the department has an unreliable and dangerous radio system, they have no idea what the status of their Communications System is. Whats going on as a businessperson when you 24 billion and you cant do body cameras and you cant make your radios work . Thats the ongoing question. And ive sent letters even to this committee to do a general inquiry of the department to ask whats going on because the men and women that i represent have reported back to me and my board of directors that they dont have adequate Communication System. Im glad youre highlighting that, congressman beyer. Thats a real important issue besides the bodyworn cameras because lets face it, folks, you might have the ability to have a bodyworn camera or an indash video of any footage, but if you dont have the ability to communicate, it can be a scenario where someones visiting a park and has a heart attack. If that officer did not communicate for first aid, then we have a problem and thats exactly right. I have yet to get some, you know, reasonable answers for that. Thats an important issue that we need to address besides bodyworn cameras. Yeah. You know, mr. Cosme, i know business and Political Leadership are not the same, but if it were my business or my department, i had Something Like that happen, i wouldnt wait three years to investigate it to figure out how to make it better. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. The chair will now recognize representative holmesnorton from the district. Seeing she stepped out. So well now recognize our great colleague from virginia, once again, representative wexton. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And mr. Cosme, id like to pick up where we left off. We were talking about those concurrent investigations. The criminal and internal investigation. You said generally the criminal goes first and then the internal. Yes. During that time that that internal investigation is pending, is it Standard Practice to in a case where the officers were involved in a Fatal Shooting in line of duty, is it Standard Practice to have those officers assigned to administrative duties, not coming in contact with the public during that period of time . It depends on each circumstance is different but typically the Standard Practices where they take administrateive duties on pending the outcome of the matter. So, would it surprise you to hear that although its been going on for three almost three years, this investigation, whether it be criminal or internal investigation, after only six months, officers amaya and vineyard were placed back on patrol duty, would that be surprising to you . That would surprise me, but every department has different policies internally, and im specifically familiar with the policies of the u. S. Park police. Well, it is surprising because even though the police the park police were insisting publicly that these officers were on administrative duty, the ghaisar family learned through civil discovery that, in fact, this was reported in the washington post, that, in fact, theyd been back on patrol since april of 2018 and not only that, theyd been in a patrol car patrolling together at the same time, which is, of course, another issue with the whole getting their stories straight. So those are things that give me great concern. Mr. Ago, would that give you pause as well that these officers are working together on a daily basis on patrol . Yes, congresswoman, it certainly would for the reasons that you stated. Thank you. So the only reason that we have any information at all is because of the u. S. Park not because of the park polices transparency or their disclosures in this case, in fact they have stonewalled since day one and continue to stonewall almost three years later. The only reason that we have this information is because the chief from Fairfax County Police Department released the dash cam vid video. As we heard today, park police, fbi, doj, refused to release information to the family, including the 911 recording that got this whole thing started. Kelly, how has this stonewalling affected your family . What impact has it had on you and your family . Its been awful. Its been awful. Not only our son was killed by the park police and federal and them being federal officers, we have been lied to. They have stonewalled information, and they have even the fbi agents who conducted through the investigation into bijans shooting to attend their grand jury, if ever there would be any, by Fairfax County prosecutors. I dont know how much of coverup, lying, stonewalling, could come out of park police, the department of injustice, as i like to call it, and it has affected us dearly because not only weve lost our son to an unbelievable, unbelievable, nonreason. We have been lied to over and over again. Our trust in our government, our trust in our system, is completely gone. We dont trust anyone. First. Second, please think about the youth of our country. Think about bijans friends. Think about all the 20yearolds that have seen this over and over and right now my phone is blowing up with texts from bijans friends and young Family Friends at how disappointed they are. Why . Why . Why cant we just say this is what happened, this is the truth, we are sorry, what can we do, lets make it right. Why cant we do that . Why have our government put our family through literally three years of hell instead of mourning. I have to be sitting here talking to this panel about a silly body camera. I mean, honestly, are we doing this right now today . This is how its affected my family. Thank you, kelly. Its been horrible for you and i hope you do find justice and i hope we take the steps to prioritize getting body cameras and data and storage for federal Law Enforcement officers so that no other family has to go through this in the future. Thank you, and i yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you so much. We are going to start the third round of questioning of questions, and it will go myself, Ranking Member, then any other members that wish to address any other issues. And so at the end of july, this Committee Held a second hearing to examine the park polices attack on the Peaceful Protesters on Lafayette Square on june 1st. This is the infamous attack that immediately preceded president trumps unwelcome, frankly, sacrilegious, photoop, with a bible in front of st. Johns church. The acting chief of park police, mr. Greg monaghan, testified at that hearing and largely defended the park polices action. They directly contradicted the testimony of National Guard whistleblower, major dimarco, and others who had been present that day so theres no question that if the u. S. Park police were wearing body cameras, it could have helped to clear up some of the conflicting reports of that day, but if as we discussed, the park police has not implemented bodyworn cameras and has even prohibited officers from using them at times. And, so mr. Ago, do you believe that the park polices resist resistance to bodyworn camera bodyworn cameras reflected a broader resistance to transparency and accountability within the force . Yes, i do, chairman cox. Thank you for your question. In addition to that, what i would note on the june incident, concerning difficulties in radio communications, but on the june 1st incident as well, the park police did not record their radio communications. Again, providing us with less transparency that we should have as the american public. Yeah, thats a great point as well. In the subcommittee, we looked at several workplace issues including a systemic lack of diversity, equity, eninclusion, and inclusion. What we learned from examening the issues, even when we have the best policies in place the functional culture of the workplace will not change unless top leadership makes a sustained and sincere effort to do so and commitment. Can you describe some of those concerns in more detail . Yes, sir, about 20 years ago acting chief mana hand when he was a patrol officer, in a couple cases, constitutional violations of people he was arresting. Without accountability and transparency, the result was mr. Monaghan was not disciplined, in fact, rose to the level of chief of chief or supervisor in the internal Affairs Division of the United States park police and subsequently rose to become acting chief and thats when you see the problems with a lack of accountability allowing someone who has the history and disciplinary problems that acting chief monaghan had to reach the top level of this very Important Police force and it trickles down in terms of the attitudes and prospectives that the police force, itself, has. Towards accountability and transparency which tries a tragically is being experienced by the gays our family today. Thanks so much. Mr. North jbup, spending your lifetime and career with park service, id really appreciate your color and your input on really changing this dysfunctional culture of our workplace and what needs to be done, particularly at the u. S. Park police and the department of interior. Thank you for the question. I must tell you my 36year career with the park Service Working in various u. S. National parks was absolutely wonderful. Certainly had cultural challenges and there were many of us who were committed to Continuous Improvement not just of our Law Enforcement programs but management and operations of parks as a whole. I had a very positive experience working for the National Parks service. But i appreciate the concerns that have been raised by this committee. I can tell you that i do not have personal knowledge of some of the incidents that you are focusing on today. And the coalition thinks it would be inappropriate to comment on cases that are currently being both criminally and civilly investigated and adjudicated, but having said that, i feel a need to say that some of our members have expressed significant concern about the way in which these matters have been handled and we are also interested in seeing all of the Law Enforcement departments in the department of interior become more open, more transparent. These are public agencies and, obviously, with narrow exceptions, public agencies owe it to the public to explain what theyve done and why theyve done it. And the coalition to protect Americas National parks supports that effort. Thank you so much. And before i yield, i do want to make the point that we talked about the costs of body cameras and better telecommunications and Communications Systems. Lets be very clear, these are not costs. These are investments that have got real returns in terms of lives saved, efficiencies, community, societal, and economic benefits. And with that, i will yield my time and we will go to my great colleague and Ranking Member, ms. Gonzalezcolon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I cannot agree more, it it is an investment. And i think we should do it properly and we should ensure what happened to the family of ms. Ghaisar will never happen again. I think that one life is enough, and i think nobody should be exposed to this situation, to have Real Transparency in the process for justice. This hearing, actually, the title of this hearing, is Police Cameras at the department of interior inconsistencies, failures, and consequences. So im just doing my questions in line of what the hearing was all about. So im sorry, ms. Ghaisar. I understand that this shouldnt be the issue, but that was the reason the hearing was called and i think, and i agree, on the issue of investing in this. Having said that, i have one last question. I think every time you got republicans and democrats in favor of one thing and and having a common issue of investing in cameras and security, i do support that. You were saying in your testimony, regarding in sometimes in my case im a lawyer as well. Obviously, when theres a crime involved, the only concern for not bringing the people to justice. But i just want to be clear because i read your testimony. You said that privacys one of the concerns regarding the creation of policies governing bodyworn cameras and you said the aclu also expressed concern about the privacy issues related to cameras. What privacy issues toward the public or to the for the officers . Mr. Cosme. Okay. I wasnt sure if it was for me or mr. Ago. The public in general, too, because you have hipaa laws. In some instances where you have these officers responding to a call where its a medical issue involved and the individuals being recorded may have a medical condition that you and you start questioning them about their medical condition and this is being captured by the body camera and this is whats been reported back to me by the membership, thats an issue we need to highlight and be careful with across the board because these individuals need to be aware that theyre being recorded and how do you segregate that stuff, just extricate that, from the actual body cam footage . An issue because you do have federal officers, Law Enforcement, that now they do use body cameras. That should not be different for the ones that may be implemented in the department of interior. Having said that, i want to say thank you, mr. Cosme. Thank you. Trial here. So i want to i really appreciate your experience and your views in terms of, you know, how unfortunate deal with this and how we can provide i truly understand you cant defund the police and expect to have resources and equipment that is needed for transparency and protect our citizens so in that sense, i want to say thank you. I want to say thank you to ms. Ghaisar, the rest of the witnesses on the panel. I know its not easy to talk about your son. Its not easy nothing easy, to talk about a crime that occurred that was never meant should never happen. And i personally feel touched by your words and i hope that this committee can do something to prevent this from happening. Having said that, i yield back my time. Thank you. Mr. Cox. Thank you so much. The chair will now recognize representative beyer from virginia. Mister chairman thank rue veryyou very much. Thanks, t. J. , for doing three rounds. Ranking member gonzalezcolon, thank you for hanging in there with us. I much prefer your Ranking Member leadership as opposed to louie louie. Love our Ranking Members. Youre absolutely right we dont want to defund the police. All these things were talking about would not be possible if we do that. We probably dont need to buy as many rocket launchers or tanks or even heat rays, maybe it would be better spent on radios and body camera training, good things like that. Mr. Ago, Robert Mcclain was the chief of the park police when Bijan Ghaisar was murdered. I dont want to engage in ad homonym attacks but structurally, does it make sense if youre the manager and lose every game that you get promoted the next year or if youre the head of a department that goes bankrupt that you then get promoted to run the whole country . What structure makes sense of that disaster to move him into the chief Law Enforcement officer of the interior . I cant speak to the structural failures on how he got promoted to that position, congressman beyer, but clearly there are structural failures, that someone that has under his under his watch overseen the by all appearances the unnecessary killing of a citizen and then coupled with the coverup that follows that shows that he does not have the leadership skills that are necessary to oversee an even growing number of Law Enforcement officers. So im troubled by that. Without knowing anything further from the inside, it is troubling from the outside and it speaks to the issue of transparency. Or lack of transparency. Thank you. It troubles many of us. And if the jeans license plate said bijan. As the park list were chasing him at 45 miles an our, chasing him i put in quotation marks. Do you think the fact his name was not bill or tom or richard had an impact on what the police were thinking . Yes. I do. When he was in the hospital and they thought because you have a mild accent that you are muslim, do you think that affected the way they treated you while you were trying to visit him while he was on life support . Yes. In fact, in fact, id like to go a little further on that. When the two park Police Detectives knocked on our door on november 27th, they showed us a snapshot of of bijans one and only tattoo on his torso which is written in the persian language as if, like, what . And i told them, this is a lot of palm from the great persian poet. I dont know what they were looking for but i found it very inappropriate. They had his license and license plate. Im sure by then they knew who bijan was. Showing me that particular item of bijans tattoo was so inappropriate and i think the fact that they saw bijan was that had a lot to do with it, absolutely. Do you think they thought it was the formula for the Iranian Nuclear weapon . Thats actually funny in a very sad way, yes. Dark humor. I apologize. No worries, please. Mr. Northup, with the bible incident and the clearing of the crowd, lots and lots of contested things over the years, heat ray and pellets. If the park police had body cameras, wouldnt it be easier to reconcile what would actually happen . What actually happened . I believe it would, sir, yes. A final coat on the conversation for me. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you so much. And seeing that our other members have gone off to other activities we have just a bit of time and so im going to take the last five minutes to allow our witnesses 1 minute and 15 to provide any final thoughts or final words themselves. Will go in terms of an alphabet order, well start with mr. Ago and finish up with ms. Ghaisar. Thank you chairman cox. I dont want to take too much time away from ms. Ghaisar. I think this is her moment to speak. I want to emphasis that the subcommittee and congress, larger the committee, as well as congress has a real opportunity to hear to be the leader in implementing body cameras across federal Law Enforcement at large, not just by the forces that are overseen by the department of the interior. And so i would ask the subcommittee respectfully to take this opportunity and take advantage of this moment and become a leader in the federal government. Thank you so much. Appreciate all of the questions. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here and thank you for your efforts and your service to our country. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. This message is for ms. Ghaisar. Like any shooting incident for Law Enforcement is tragedy. I know we cant replace bijan for you and a mothers love is forever enduring. And we you said that and we want you to hear that message. And i just want to also tell you that as discussed during this hearing, body cameras are an important tool for Law Enforcement but its not an absolute solution in and of itself. It may be would have shown Different Things what occurred to your son, but i just want you to know that we feel your pain and its a tragic loss for you and we understand that and im a father, and i just want to relay that to you. Thats all i have to say. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for allowing me this opportunity. Thank you. And northup . Chairman cox, thank you very much. We appreciate the hearing today and i will also be very brief and just say that, again, we support very rigorous standards for Law Enforcement operations within the department of interior. We absolutely support the use of incar body camera systems and we support Law Enforcement programs that are open and transparent and accountable to the public and appreciate the committees work to move us all in that direction. Thank you so much. And ms. Ghaisar, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, chairman. I have so much to say but im just going to make it as short as possible. First of all, the park police has failed to have a proper communication recording the night of my sons shooting. They claim that their communication was done. The same claim the day they gassed and beat the protestors on june 1st. Park police chief mcclain and then later park police chief moynihan have done nothing, zero transparency or accountability or even communication with my family. The fact that i hear in testimony that 150 150 piece of gadget cannot the obtained by a federal police unit breaks my heart, honestly. I cant even i cant even think about that. Third of all, this has been sitting in my heart for a very long time. Last time you had a hearing with police chief moynihan in a house committee, he had brought with himself a helmet of a Park Police Officer and put it on the table when he was in the hearing. He had brought that helmet as a prop yet we have my son who is buried with ten bullets shot at him by the park police and he had done anything as lowly that chief moynihan has done in that hearing. Seriously. There has been so many things wrong with the park police, the way they present themselves, the way they do things but this has sat in my heart. I mean when i see that helmet and that is the case he wants to make that these officers were beaten and abused at the protest, i dont know what i have to show. Im not going to im not going to stoop that low, but i just want to tell you, this is how disappointing the park police is from top down. And im done. Thank you. Thank you so much. I want to thank all of the Witnesses Today for providing important and unique insights on Police Cameras. Ms. Ghaisar, i want to give you special thanks for your courage in being here today and im sure your desire to do what we can to make sure that what happened to bijan does not happen to anyone ever again and its disappointing but not surprising that i didnt show up again today. They have forgotten that theyre answerable to the legislative branch of government. We are the peoples branch. Them not showing up is them not answering to the people. And i can certainly understand why they dont want to be here. It must be uncomfortable trying to defend this administrations actions that have been so unpopular, so antienvironment, so racist and deadly and illegal. Thats why the leadership it is routinely squashing this committees oversight efforts like this hearing. But this committee has a constitutionally backed responsibility to provide oversight to the department of intier interior on a suite of issues. And so no matter how uncomfortable it is to answer these questions, the American People deserve answers. Ms. Ghaisar deserves answers, mr. Ghaisar deserves answers. Johns only sister deserves answers. For anyone who loved bijan deserves answers. Thank you, sir. Once again i want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have additional questions for the witnesses and will ask you to respond to these in writing. Under Committee Rule 30, members must submit questions within three Business Days following the hearing and the hearing record will be held open for ten Business Days for the responses. If theres no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you